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2025-02-09 09:52

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 55

Release id #249171 : Blue Monday

Karaoke night with PAL.

@PAL I read your parabel to the scene and karaoke. This is a great way to put it!
I think it is so good so it's worthy of a comment but since this is not about the release itself I started this thread.

I think this is exactly what the scene is about. You cooked it down perfectly and this is also something that resonates with me 100% and something Ive been saying all along.
I doesn't matter how off key it is, as long as it is you who sing, all will celebrate the honest effort and daring attempt to show yourself in a vulnerable moment. And as a bonus maybe next time you will sing a bit better, if it even matters. :)

I guess this is what I want to see in the scene. The honesty and your personality rather than AI.
Yes here comes the AI talk. But since you illustrated it so perfectly I saw a moment where there may be a time to find common ground.

For me AI is like going up, mimic and play professional sounding prerecorded singing in a karaoke bar. What's the point of that? I want to see YOU and what you are about. I'd rather go to a karaoke bar than watch Eurovision Song Contest.

All the respect PAL!

Included PALs comment below for context.

"PS:

I went to a karaoke bar tonight and had so much fun, it made me think about our demo scene.

They all grabbed the microphone. I guess their hearts were pounding, their voices trembling. Some soared, some stumbled, and to be completely honest, many sounded truly horrible.

The crowd sang along, laughed, smiled, cried, cheered, and clapped, not for my satisfaction or the perfection of it all, but for the courage of those who dared to put on a show. For a few golden hours tonight, there was no judgment, only karaoke music, love and pure joy between people wanting to have a great time together.

In another our scene, hard working artists and creators invest massively, pouring their hearts into their demos, music, art or other creations, only to face cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want.

If life were more like my karaoke night, where every voice, no matter if offkey, was worth celebrating, the world would be a better place.

PSS: I sang tonight too. It was the worst one in a way… The whole night was hillbilly and upbeat tunes, what we in Norway call harry music, and I went up there and sang a slow Bowie tune. Lol. I loved it and they did too!"

2025-02-09 10:18

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 526

But the start of that conversation was not AI.
PAL's utopian dreamy all-appreciative inclusive demoscene exists only for some.
Going to the analogy, if PAL is signing off-key, everyone's cheering the effort. If some other people do it, they are being boo'ed. That's the issue.

And that is specifically connected to THIS scene. My experience of total newbie in ZX demoscene is completely different. And there's a Polish/Russian context there.

2025-02-09 10:29

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 325

Oh, this resonates with me so perfectly that I just have to state/write it here. Both PAL’s original life story with comparison drawn to the scene and The Sarge’s further comparison with AI, stating the importance for everyone to find his/her own voice and not engage in simple mimicking out of desire to sound perfect.

Here in the scene, as in almost everything in life, I’m sure that the applause you get by fakery brings some joy, but letting go, swimming without lifejacket, and doing it for real, doing it yourself, brings such tremendous fulfilment that everyone should try it.

Thank you PAL. Thank you The Sarge.

P.S. it seems me and wacek wrote our posts at almost the same moment, so this post of mine is not regarding wacek’s.
So, @wacek: sorry if this seems like a hi-jack of the theme you originally set.

2025-02-09 10:50

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 526

No, that's ok, it's fascinating to read everyone's takes on PAL's comment :)
Using the karaoke analogy, my aim would be to choose a song that noone in the bar knows, or add new own lyrics to the well known song. In the scene I always wanted to make things that are new and different and surprising, this is what drives me personally.

2025-02-09 10:51

TheRyk

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2444

Though the connection of the 'purists save art' versus 'haters gonna hate' debate (if I got any of that halfways right) with the Blue Monday SID cover is getting more and more vague, I prefer you having your debate here in Forums rather than in entry comments, hence I also removed comments having nothing to do with the release here:

User Comment
Submitted by PAL [PM] on 9 February 2025
PS:

I went to a karaoke bar tonight and had so much fun, it made me think about our demo scene.

They all grabbed the microphone. I guess their hearts were pounding, their voices trembling. Some soared, some stumbled, and to be completely honest, many sounded truly horrible.

The crowd sang along, laughed, smiled, cried, cheered, and clapped, not for my satisfaction or the perfection of it all, but for the courage of those who dared to put on a show. For a few golden hours tonight, there was no judgment, only karaoke music, love and pure joy between people wanting to have a great time together.

In another our scene, hard working artists and creators invest massively, pouring their hearts into their demos, music, art or other creations, only to face cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want.

If life were more like my karaoke night, where every voice, no matter if offkey, was worth celebrating, the world would be a better place.

PSS: I sang tonight too. It was the worst one in a way… The whole night was hillbilly and upbeat tunes, what we in Norway call harry music, and I went up there and sang a slow Bowie tune. Lol. I loved it and they did too!

Submitted by PAL [PM] on 8 February 2025
The comments in this thread have already made huge impact in my life. The latest development is just making me leave all this. It is insanity on our scene these days, everything is twisted and distorted... Sorry to hear your latest comments.

On the other side. I like this tune, the tune this thread is all about.

User Comment
Submitted by wacek [PM] on 8 February 2025 (Censored)
@Pal, all I want is equal treatment.

Option A. We decide we appreciate any kind of activity and contribution and do not critisize the releases to the demoscene. Not a fan of this one, but fine. Then your attack at Joe is valid, but also noone should put idiotic criticisms at other releases. It's all appreciated, and haters get ridiculed or whatever.

Or, option B. We decide this is ART and it can take criticism, which also pushes things forward. The criticism I got as a beginning musician pushed me to develop my skills. Then, your criticism of Joe is not acceptable. People commenting negatively on people critisizing releases should be ridiculed or whatever. It is ok to say that release from A Great Demo Group is not fantastic or music is not to someone's liking, without being attacked for it.

Not the current bullshit of "it's ok to shit on THIS stupid demo" but "don't you dare to say you don't like THAT demo" because reasons.

User Comment
Submitted by PAL [PM] on 8 February 2025
@wacek - That is very sad to hear as I have always loved your demos and also made reviews of them. I think you are great, I do not understand what you say, I guess you are right... I have not gotten the heat you talk about... No matter what... I really love your demos and it is very sad to hear what you say in this thread, a thread not about your demos... so yes, I understand it must be heavy for you. All my love... maybe we all should just create for fun in the times ahead and be more jolly? I do not know!

User Comment
Submitted by wacek [PM] on 6 February 2025
@PAL: "This is a community that thrives on joy, creativity, and passion for all different things per different person."
I must be living in a parallel dimension to the C64 demoscene you are talking about. Maybe anonymous assholes do not downvote all your demos, unfortunately some of us have to take a lot of shit because we are not Offence. Or Triad. Or Fairlight. Nobody's holding on the even most idiotic criticism for some of us. And nobody's running to our defense either ;)

2025-02-09 10:52

wacek

Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 526

Fair point, we got off track there.

2025-02-09 11:07

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3070

Isn't wielding the anti-AI pitchfork an example of

"cold words from those who think they can dictate what is "correct" based on their own narrow views and what they want."?

2025-02-09 11:10

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1129

first they said: move to the forum, the comments are not for debates!
then they said: move to a different forum, this forum is not for debates!

so now there will be 1 discussion, spread across 3 locations?

I had something to add to the discussion, but I guess I have to wait for the 3rd location to open?

2025-02-09 11:19

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1129

I'll risk it :) (/me waves at theryk;)

@Sarge, I think you're misunderstanding PAL's point and twisting his story to fit you're own narrative.

GenAI development has been increasing rapidly across the globe, I understand the fear ppl have about their jerbs being taken (irl and in the scene).
But the cat's out of the bag. There will be no world without GenAI, better start embracing the new world, instead of pulling out the pitchforks to everyone playing around with the latest shiny tool.

2025-02-09 11:36

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3075

A C64 cover is either an awesome, balls-to-the-wall SID track or an average-sounding copy of the original.

The hashtag for the first one might be:

#YourFavouriteSongButItsAnAwesomeChiptune

For the second one:

#YouWontBelieveThisMusicWasMadeOnAComputerFrom1982

The first one might eventually get pressed on vinyl compilation of most awesome cover SID tracks. The second one gets uploaded to a YouTube channel.

Some people work hard to make one good cover. Other people work hard to build something steady, long lasting and groving.

Both approaches have it's own value. Second one is maybe more manly, because there is a mission and goal in that.

I feel like a kid sometimes wanting to have pure joy now instead of looking at a bigger picture of having a purpose and goals.

#whatTheFuckIamTalkingAbout

2025-02-09 12:09

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 325

So, I will attempt to hi-jack the topic, already twice hi-jacked. It’s ridiculous really. What I want to say is that this kind of talk I’m about to quote bothers me immensely:
Quote:

But the cat's out of the bag. There will be no world without GenAI, better start embracing the new world

Why THE F*CK?
What you talk about (people fear losing their jobs etc.) is happening IRL because of greed of the techbro class. Nothing new. Gen AI is the newest and baddest tool using which they can squeeze more out of creatives and spend less on the said creatives’ salaries. I get it. Buy why embrace it here? Where is that capitalist/economic incentive here in this community?

P.S. Telling old farts that jerk around with 40+ year old toy computers to start embracing the new world. :D

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