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Forums > C64 Composing > Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

2011-02-10 11:46

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

What I really miss is a topic about music composing in general. If I haven't found an existing topic regarding this, but if we have any, let me know about it.
(There are many topics in Composing section, thanks god there's a good seraching engine. However it would be great to have more categories inside 'Composing' for easier browsing.)

I want to start this topic about the music composition itself, which is always a mystic topic and there's no real perfect method of teaching it in schools even nowadays.
On one hand this is the beauty of composing, that it cannot be described consciously in its entire form, and one can never say he learned everything.

I want to write a book/article in the future about the logic and lexical knowledge behind music composition, as there aren't a lot of comprehensive books or webpages that give us a complete picture and directions to improve.
One good (and possibly a standard) is Arnold Schoenberg's 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition', which gives a lot of understanding to composition itself (not music theory!).

If you have knowledge and experiences which you want to share with composers all around, feel free post your replies into this topic... and at the end we will have something at CSDB which will be a guide to refresh the spirit and knowledge of musical composition.

What this topic would exclude:
-The music theory (literature about chords, staff, etc..) - many books and videos can be found all around on the net.
-The use of trackers and analog synthesis techniques of SID, which is another topic, bit related of course...and has been discussed already afaik.

I'm looking forward your contributions with tips as well as questions/replies - discussions :)

Hermit Software Hungary

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2011-02-12 16:52

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Good examples for counterpoint are fugues, and I'd mention a bunch of Jeroen Tel's and Rob Hubbard's compositions too.
Classical music has a strong melodic counterpoint (somewhere between middleground and foreground) usually, the other voices usually just fill around (background).

I think btw, we have misunderstanding on unconsciousness. It has different degrees depending on how much the consciousness and logic starts taking it over. For example for me unconsciousness means that when I create melody, I do it by the first idea what comes into my mind upon a mood. Sometimes it's shit, but when it is good, I just make it wrong if i want to correct things in it. Even it's not the same when I record it on phone/dictaphone/whatever to not to lose the idea. In this method there is a more conscious step...which is the selection of good parts.
When I go home for example, I have many good feelings of the freedom after slavery of work, and usually I have happy melodical ideas in that case. When going to somewhere, there aren't many things that drives our attention to other directions than entertaining ourselves. Or when we go for a walk or run a bit.

One note about who we compose for: I would compose for myself in the first place. There are many people like me, and they will probably like it. Sometimes I make a mistake by composing for others' expectations, and that shouldn't be the good way in my opinion. How can you test people will like your music? Just from feedback. But if you compose for your own taste, it's really something that's beatiful for your soul, and for many others with similar souls. (No music what everyone likes, as said before. If there are target audiences, we have better chances that we'll find them or they will find us.)

2011-02-12 17:09

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Conssious VS unconssious: i will claim this:

as a composer, you cant cheat me.
i understand your every thought, your every emotion.

Nobody except composers, can really understand deep emotional pieces, like some from Jarre.

Its because we understand the notes involved.

Unconssious = not 100% knowing.

Trust me, as a composer, i know.

If any piece of music by me invokes some feelings in the listener, trust me, i know why, exactly.

its because of the counterpoints i put in there.

2011-02-12 17:34

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

I'll try to answer by pushing forward the topic with Rambones for composing techniques...the (let's say) 'conscious' or 'professional part'...which makes a professional composer, who knows what-where-and why he/she does.
--------------------------------------------------
In my opinion btw, the good average music can be understood by anybody, as music should be a language of feelings that everybody 'understands'. But here is a contradiction again, because it can be noticed that people who are more intelligent musically can better interpret the music above the average pop level, like many jazz and symphonic and others.
--------------------------------------------------
My idea for the starting of conscious/professional composition would be to collect the different feelings. In everyday life we have a large scale of feelings, but when we are asked, many times we cannot describe them precisely, they are usually 'GOOD' or 'WRONG', or sinonyms.
In my opinion a composer, who controls feelings, has to get in picture about the possible emoitions, even must investigate for new emotions that may be uncovered yet...
It's hard to build a system for feelings, but I've seen some trials so far. e.g.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emotions
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_OtIHqbusWrM/R7V7w09vx5I/AAAAAAAAALA/U..

And as Rambones said, when we learn what techniques in melody and counterpoints (even bass and rhythm) turns on what feelings in listeners, we should be closer to the conscious composition.
My plan will be to collect as many of this knowledge as possible.

The other very important know-how is then arranging these emotional elements in a way that keeps interest and goes somewhere.
As Schoenberg writes, a well balanced piece mowes in waves, which has deeper and peaking points, contradicting parts (consonant resolves dissonant, etc.) that keeps interest by constant motion (varying over time, isn't stagnant). And somewhere this reaches a top point, the so called 'climax', when the music turns over towards the coda/outro....
As all other rules/tips, this is broken many times, but could be an aid on young composers to follow...

2011-02-12 18:02

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: ok my example:
Theory Lesson 1

please read the trivia.

in my opinion you will need to use a kb/piano to figure out what i did with the scale, that is the basis of this whole tune.

the scale is: f g g# a# c d d# (f g)

i play it backwards, with every note before the scale note, first.

you should also try to do this, if you want a chance to see what is actually done.

and then remember in the end: its all just a single scale.

for non SDI users, press p on startup screen to choose pal.
then press shift + L to load tune, return to choose.

F1 to play, and f4 to see tracker play.

Did you mean F G Ab Bb C D Eb?

2011-02-12 18:30

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Emotions <=> counterpoints? True to some level. But there are other aspects, that are important beyond the pure notes. You cannot ignore them, at least when you write pieces for dedicated performers.

One important part is sound and voice. As a composer, you should have some imagination on how it has to sound like - not only what instrument, but even deeply into the interpretation. You even take into account the exact voice of a singer, should you happen to write for a certain band. But you cannot put that into notes. And the piece becomes something completely different, if you exchange the performer then - and may lose much of the intended emotional content.

As examples, some - from a compository point of view, relatively simple - examples from my C64 times would be some of Black Sabbath's pieces from "Mob rules", specifically "The sign of the southern cross" or "Falling off the edge of the world". Exchange Dio for another singer, and the songs aren't the same (they may or may not be still good then). (There are other examples with other performers as well, this is just to be taken as an example)

In other instances, this is not true. To stay with the same band: although I really like his style, I would think Iommy's moody long guitar part in "Lonely is the word" could even be transferred to other instruments, and still be as moody, here it's clearly melody and harmony that does the job.

To make it clear, I am not a "Black Sabbath/Dio" fan, but I think here we could have relatively clear examples. I may know even better compositions, but there the points may not be just as clear.

What still has been neglected yet in the discussion, is that the emotional context is additionally set as soon as you have songs with text, and an audience that understands it (not applicable to C64 compositions, but to composition in general). Not only the textual content is then important, also how you use "language" itself as an additional instrument (for example, intentionally prefer vowel-rich vocabulary over consonant-rich or vice versa, play with the effects of diphtongs etc...)

2011-02-12 21:10

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Quote: Did you mean F G Ab Bb C D Eb?

No.

Trackers have called it a# and d# since 1986, so im not gonna start calling the first black after the D for Eb, when all my music programs call it D#.

2011-02-12 21:22

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Quote: No.

Trackers have called it a# and d# since 1986, so im not gonna start calling the first black after the D for Eb, when all my music programs call it D#.

Nah. If you're within well-tempered, it should depend on whether you're in "east" or "west" of the quint circle.

And if you're not within well-tempered, then D# and Eb usually is not even the same pitch.

Just because your music program developers were lazy, that is no reason to drop distinctions.

Edit: for those really being pedantic: yes, I know that the so-called "quint circle" is more a "quint helix", and that you do not change again from "east" to "west" after "180 degrees" and so this harmonic model is being simplicistic...

2011-02-13 13:09

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

dear jssr and hein: it makes no sense to upload a tune as an example of something, which is using d# etc., and then write that it is using something else, no ? hope we can continue with more important matters now..

afterall that was the point to upload the tune in editor format. to show the investigator something.

what can be the next topic ?
Hermit you are directing this thread arent you ?

Else i could throw in the words, intro, part A, part B, chorus, ending, structure of a song ?

Or something that i lack words for: instruments, or pieces of the composition, which "talk" to eachother.

?

2011-02-13 13:18

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Quote:

hope we can continue with more important matters now..

Quote:

And if you're not within well-tempered, then D# and Eb usually is not even the same pitch.

We can and should continue with a different matter. But please take the point that, even more under the circumstances cited above, I really do consider it important, not just a notational formality.

2011-02-13 13:43

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 942

Quote: dear jssr and hein: it makes no sense to upload a tune as an example of something, which is using d# etc., and then write that it is using something else, no ? hope we can continue with more important matters now..

afterall that was the point to upload the tune in editor format. to show the investigator something.

what can be the next topic ?
Hermit you are directing this thread arent you ?

Else i could throw in the words, intro, part A, part B, chorus, ending, structure of a song ?

Or something that i lack words for: instruments, or pieces of the composition, which "talk" to eachother.

?

sure, np.. just figuring out what chord matches your scale.

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