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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
C64 Charts
Hey, so I'm trying to simplify categories for my research a little bit to be able to at least try to draw a line between demoscene and crackerscene. Obviously I didn't watch all the 1414 productions classified as C64 Charts. That'd be a little too much at this point. I watched few of them, and to my best knowledge, stand-alone productions with charts would be more of a crackerscene thing.
So the question would be: Does anyone know, if there are C64 Charts prods that include any demoscene charts. Or C64 Charts that'd be half-way there, i.e. included charts for cracks, cracktros and demos - something that could be considered demoscenish.
Thanks in advance :) |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 19 |
Disk magazines might be a good resource for charts of all kind... I would recommend (TOTALY unbiased) Propaganda... ;-) |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
That's actually an interesting point. My intuition would be that "C64 Charts" productions would pre-date mags, but based on data from csdb the earliest C64 Diskmag is from 1985, and the earliest C64 Charts is from 1986 -- of course, that does not count (because how could it) productions without an assigned release date.
Anyway. Absolutely, if I were looking for contents of charts, mags might be a better choice. I am currently trying to figure out tho to which category I can assign C64 Charts - crackerscene, both/mixed or demoscene -- that is, if there were C64 Charts productions that included charts for more demoscenish categories :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting ScrapDisk magazines might be a good resource for charts of all kind... I would recommend (TOTALY unbiased) Propaganda... ;-) What are the earliest diskmags? |
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Scrap
Registered: Jan 2021
Posts: 19 |
The earliest one I remember (surely not the first one), again totally unbiased: Sex'n'Crime. In the early days, printed (photocopied) magazines like "Pirates" were popular. Maybe there are some sources with scanned versions of them somewhere in the web? |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
Having lived those times, don't people usually get buried under stones and rot before archeologists and historians start digging? In my opinion these classification attempts are artificial and anachronistic. Kids did lists of things they liked, nothing more to that. Besides if this is an attempt of being scientific, then the data should be your guide, not preset definitions. |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting Mixerdon't people usually get buried under stones and rot before archeologists and historians start digging?.
That's a very interesting discussion, we also had with UNESCO btw. In a technology sense, those times are long buried under the stone. The kids born in 95 (who are already turning 30 and many times are already parents themselves) are as far from C64 as we are from oil lamps.
Quoting MixerBesides if this is an attempt of being scientific, then the data should be your guide, not preset definitions.
So what data would you have in mind, when you say that? How would it be organized, what metadata it might have to be able to tell whether something was more crackscene or demoscene, without presets? Asking out of genuine curiosity. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting Mixerthe data should be your guide, not preset definitions. Some early examples of coder/graphician(sic:D)/musician charts vs. cracker/pal-ntsc-fixer/importer charts would constitute data, no? |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting KrillSome early examples of coder/graphician(sic:D)/musician charts vs. cracker/pal-ntsc-fixer/importer charts would constitute data, no?
a completely sidetracking question, but how hard would that potentially be to extract plaintext and get one's hands on the charts from d64 file? Many compression schemes out there for C64? Might they be encoded somehow, like encrypted? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting angelohow hard would that potentially be to extract plaintext and get one's hands on the charts from d64 file? Many compression schemes out there for C64? Might they be encoded somehow, like encrypted? Encodings should not deviate much across different issues of the same "publication".
But isn't the question about categories mostly, not so much actual numbers? (Which were very likely skewed and biased in all kinds of ways.) Pretty sure the categories themselves were established rather quickly, though. |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting KrillBut isn't the question about categories mostly, not so much actual numbers? (Which were very likely skewed and biased in all kinds of ways.) Pretty sure the categories themselves were established rather quickly, though.
Well, I was kind of thinking of a different analysis -- even just for kicks -- to see across the years what people appeared on charts, and what groups, and which categories, and maybe even do a simple popularity summary :)
It could support the primary case, if I would be able to tell per-C64 chart basis to which category to assign it to. But then again, if the earliest C64 Chart is from 1986 which is pretty late in terms of pre-scene, and its only 1414 points from a set of 800k maybe, just maybe, removing them if they're too debatable is something that wont bias the outcome that much. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
[/quote]So what data would you have in mind, when you say that? How would it be organized, what metadata it might have to be able to tell whether something was more crackscene or demoscene, without presets? Asking out of genuine curiosity.[/quote]
I can see that you're collecting data. I think that you're correct that the place to look is in the productions that people did. All www collections and commentary came later. In my opinion the terms crack scene and demo scene did not exist mid 80's and emerged much later. |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting KrillPretty sure the categories themselves were established rather quickly, though.
interestingly enough, reading through the threads you gave me I found this thesis:
Quoting hedningWith the Amiga and Atari ST everything obviously had to be autistically sorted into horrible terms like dentro, cracktro, trackmo whatever. :D
This might be actually a lower-hanging fruit, looking at different charts to see how each platform formed categories. Even if done manually, without an over-engineered OCRin AI :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Quoting angeloWell, I was kind of thinking of a different analysis -- even just for kicks -- to see across the years what people appeared on charts, and what groups, and which categories, and maybe even do a simple popularity summary :) Ah, finding the presence or absence of some "discipline overlap" within groups or the scene would certainly be a finding. =)
Quoting angeloQuoting hedningWith the Amiga and Atari ST everything obviously had to be autistically sorted into horrible terms like dentro, cracktro, trackmo whatever. :D This might be actually a lower-hanging fruit, looking at different charts to see how each platform formed categories. Even if done manually, without an over-engineered OCRin AI :) Oh, you're about categories of productions? This might give some insight, but keep in mind that the 16-bit platforms appeared after any kind of "scene" was a thing.
Also "best demo" and whatnot (as opposed to ranking individuals) wasn't a thing in the mags, iirc, but only came later with automated statistics on database-backed websites. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 299 |
Quoting KrillAlso "best demo" and whatnot (as opposed to ranking individuals) wasn't a thing in the mags, iirc, but only came later with automated statistics on database-backed websites.
There were charts in scene mags, when swapping we were sending votesheets that were then used to compile those charts, buts due to limited distribution, and low number of entries those charts were not very reliable. |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2583 |
The "charts" releases I know are purely personal charts of swappers, independent of legal vs illegal scene. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
Also, enjoy including and cross-referencing socalled "rankings" in your research :-) Ranking (no idea what logic they are based on, but there are quite a few of those) |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting bugjamThe "charts" releases I know are purely personal charts of swappers, independent of legal vs illegal scene.
That's very insightful and valuable. Thank you. |
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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Quoting wsAlso, enjoy including and cross-referencing socalled "rankings" in your research :-) Ranking (no idea what logic they are based on, but there are quite a few of those)
interesting. especially it's tagged as regular demo, so it'd be easy to miss that one. |
