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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223 |
First raster split?
Something that's been on my mind for years ... wonder if I will ever find the answer:
Who did the first real raster split? I did mine in 1987, but I don't think I was the first?
Trap Crap Wrap |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 170 |
Are you talking about who did it first in the scene, or first ever (in a publicly available production?)
I remember the first time I noticed a raster split. It was in the game "Choplifter", which came out for the '64 in 1982 or 1983.
Other than that, I think Danish Crackers were among the first in the scene to use raster splits in their intros (1984): Danish Crackers Intro
By hacking that intro, I learned to code raster interrupts, so my first intros with raster splits were coded in '84 or '85. |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 109 |
okay.. stupid question: what's the rastersplit in DC's intro? |
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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223 |
I was thinking vertical split, not horizontal split. Sorry, That was definitely not clear in my first post. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Triton Technology was the first i saw to do it |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 170 |
Quoting TPMokay.. stupid question: what's the rastersplit in DC's intro? There's a $d016 split for the scroller. |
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The Phantom
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 360 |
I did the first vertical split on my Atari 600xl computer, back in 1984. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
Perhaps ABC Crackings Raster Intro? |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
TLR: its not straight :D and not stable :D |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
Quote: TLR: its not straight :D and not stable :D
It's not straight but I'd say it's, from the viewers perspective, controlled in a stable manner.
It does use an unconventional technique though.
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1995 |
Simply setting $d020 every 63d cycle (or as often u like) will make a straight split (given the screen is turned off with $d011=0). Making the split not jump around each frame and making the split occur at the same x-position always is what is called a "Stable raster" which I'm sure Trap looks for. |
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Trap
Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223 |
JackAsser got it right. I was looking for the first real vertical raster split. |
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Turtle
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 70 |
Guess in some Anthony Crowther's gamethere was that test pattern like split after pressing restore, back in 1984. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Guess in some Anthony Crowther's gamethere was that test pattern like split after pressing restore, back in 1984.
Yes, in Gryphon |
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4mat
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 63 |
think it's William Wobbler you press restore in. Gryphon's testcard is a bitmap. (press B) |
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LocalH
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 10 |
IMO, "raster splits" are always "vertical" - since you're splitting the raster mid-line. Otherwise, standard rasterbars would be considered a split, and I don't think anyone with any knowledge whatsoever calls them that =P
Stability is also key, as has been mentioned - anyone can bung together a jittery split that slides around, it takes at least a little bit of skill to make it rock-solid. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
The term "split" is used in early books (e.g Mapping the C64) to denote a mid-screen change of a video parameter by using the raster counter.
I'd say "raster split" is/was a fairly common term for usage of normal raster interrupts, especially in the early days.
Remember that there were loads of stuff done before there were any raster bars or vertical splits... |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1630 |
While TLR is probably 100% correct in pointing out that the term split was used in this way in early days, I personally never heard anyone call anything else than splits in the middle of a rasterline a "split" during the 15 last years or so.
(I guess one could use terms such as "ysplit" (a la rasterbars) and "xsplit" (a la midline splits) to denote the difference between the two...) |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 430 |
nice discussion *LOL* but that all does NOT lead to the answer of traps question. and hey, I want to know the answer, too :) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: think it's William Wobbler you press restore in. Gryphon's testcard is a bitmap. (press B)
The version i have of Gryphon, has a TV test picture, when pressing restore, made with rasters. its no bitmap. maybe you just remember wrong.. :d |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
I suggest you all go check some very old games, coz a first is likely to be found there.. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
@Jan: No, the screen is neither bitmap & rastersplits in Gryphon but made by chars and on top there is some fancy interlaced chopped rasters. Was it those you meant (the loading look-a-like flickering of lines)? |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 170 |
Quoting LocalHIMO, "raster splits" are always "vertical" - since you're splitting the raster mid-line. Otherwise, standard rasterbars would be considered a split, and I don't think anyone with any knowledge whatsoever calls them that =P
Dude, get over yourself. Are you saying that ye olde sceners had no knowledge? We didn't have the internet, only the Commodore 64 Reference Guide, our machine code monitors and other people's binaries, but still we got things done.
Commence quoting of "Four Yorkshiremen" |
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LocalH
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 10 |
Ok, let me quantify what I said a bit - I should have said "in recent times". Back in the old days, sure, things were different. But as times and techniques have advanced, the term "raster split" seems to be most commonly used for mid-line splits. Myself, I always used the term "screen cut" for the per-line, offscreen kind.
I didn't mean to demean anyone else's knowledge, just was saying that I had never seen anyone use "raster split" to mean what I have called a "screen cut". Probably could have said that with a little more tact, though, so my bad on that one. |
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lemming
Registered: Oct 2009
Posts: 44 |
Interesting discussion, I'd be very pleased if people threw around some names of demos as well.
Not probably the first, but perhaps something that fits Trap's definition: D.Y.S.P.I.D.C.E. , hoping to clear things up :)
Over here in Finland a sort of rastersplit craze started after Academy (from Norway) released Noia (why am I not seeing this demo here? must upload, I guess ...), to which FIG responded with Paranoia , then the fellas in Beyond Force with numerous cool prods ...
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1727 |
I made a split sprite scroller in part 5 of Turbo Hack V1.
This is however an intentional cheat. To avoid the one cycle lateness glitch on the left side I actually change all the sprite colors.
IIRC Microtop did a similar split using $d021 around this time.
It would surprise me if this wasn't done earlier though.
Stable rasters as we know them today existed already in 1986.
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
I'm another for "back in the day raster split meant any raster interrupt splitting the screen somehow".
Pretty sure I did a vertical split in around 86 but also pretty sure I'd seen one quite a bit before that, possibly Crowther's game and probably some demos.
Pete |
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Danzig
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 430 |
yeah, the term "raster split" or "raster interrupt" was used when splitting the screen in different areas (like bitmap on top and char at the bottom).
the term "splitraster" was used for vertical splits.
today it makes me smile as its just swapped words :) |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
It was (and still is to me) a vertical split.
The raster is as far as we were concerned a whole screen thing, I don't think I've seen any definition anywhere saying a raster is a single line, that's a scanline. That's why a raster split was any line splitting the screen into more than 1 section from the scanline you made the chnage. Then when we worked out about timing and cycles/scanline and got stable "vertical" ones happening the screen was now split the other way so we called them vertical splits..
That's my memory of it all anyway. :)
Just out of interest, over in Atari land they tend to call them "mid scanline changes"
Pete |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
I'm a late comer to the scene (96) and for me raster split was always the vertical split. All demos called them like that I've seen. This is the first time I hear that a simple mode change once pr frame should be called raster split. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: I'm a late comer to the scene (96) and for me raster split was always the vertical split. All demos called them like that I've seen. This is the first time I hear that a simple mode change once pr frame should be called raster split.
I think a lot of stuff like this also depends what country you're from..
Pete |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
http://www.zzap64.co.uk/zzap23/mental1.html
"I've started thinking about sprite usage - and since I like the use of no on-screen distracting text I don't need a raster splitting system to split the screen. The 'in' thing seems to be to use more than eight sprites on screen, so I'm thinking of running about 32 sprites simultaneously, without glitches or 'airborne trousers'. Stand on top of the first tombstone in G'n'G and wait for a couple of minutes for the latter effect! I think I can avoid embarassments like that."
Braybrook learned most of his "jargon" and a good few techniques from Cnetters..
Pete |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
Quote: I think a lot of stuff like this also depends what country you're from..
Pete
Rather on the era you've learnt these things in. Looks like the pioneers called even the basic stuff a split, but since then that has changed. |
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JCB
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 241 |
Quote: Rather on the era you've learnt these things in. Looks like the pioneers called even the basic stuff a split, but since then that has changed.
Maybe so. Does that mean newer is more correct? Go read the definition of Raster. To my understanding any definition has nothing to do with a single line so to split a "raster" is to do it anywhere on a line or a whole screen. There's still plenty of people using that definition now but maybe they just learned from us old guys :)
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
everyone is correct. the pioneers use it that way, the newer ones in another way. |
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Shadow
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 355 |
Back when I started (1988) "raster split" was only used in the vertical-split meaning as far as I can recall.
But given that C64 coding had a 6-year history already then, I guess terminology could have changed.
That is rather interesting btw. to think of how much was left to discover! I mean, 1988 - 6 years - should be enough to find out most stuff?
But I would say that the 'new inventions era' stretched all the way to 92 or so.
Sure there are new tricks being found now as well, but it seems that the first years (say 82-86 or so) was more about using the 'standard' features, and then 86-92 was the golden age of the VIC-trick era, as new discoveries exploded, much thank to the demoscene.
Eh, guess I rambled away on a tangent there...
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LocalH
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 10 |
Quite technically, the "official" Commodore definition of raster means the scanning of the screen:
Quote: RASTER REGISTER
The raster register is found in the VIC-II chip at location 53266
($D012). The raster register is a dual purpose register. When you read
this register it returns the lower 8 bits of the current raster position.
The raster position of the most significant bit is in register location
53265 ($D011). You use the raster register to set up timing changes in
your display so that you can get rid of screen flicker. The changes on
your screen should be mode when the raster is not in the visible display
area, which is when your dot positions fall between 51 and 251.
When the raster register is written to (including the MSB) the number
written to is saved for use with the raster compare function. When the
actual raster value becomes the same as the number written to the raster
register, a bit in the VIC-II chip interrupt register 53273 ($D019) is
turned ON by setting it to 1. |
