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Forums > C64 Coding > what is your RAM init pattern?
2016-04-27 19:49
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
what is your RAM init pattern?

since i stumbled about yet another case of some ancient demo that relies on uninitialized RAM - and which would only work if you change the default VICE uses currently - i think its about time to collect some hard data about this phenomenon and perhaps at the end add proper configuration for it to VICE (or even choose a better default).

background: when you power on your C64, the RAM will not be zero, instead (about) half of the RAM cells will be 1, and the other half will be 0. this results in some kind of pattern (mostly) consisting of $00 and $ff. for example if you start VICE, then enter the monitor and look at a page of RAM it shows this:

(C:$e5d4) m c000 c0ff
>C:c000  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c010  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c020  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c030  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c040  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c050  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c060  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c070  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c080  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c090  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c0a0  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c0b0  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00   ................
>C:c0c0  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c0d0  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c0e0  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................
>C:c0f0  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff  ff ff ff ff   ................


this is the default pattern, which could be shortened to "64 times $00, 64 times $ff, repeat"

now i'd like to know how it looks like on your (real) C64... if you have some cartridge with ML monitor, all you need to do is power on your c64, check some memory page, and post the pattern here (you can ignore that some values wont actually be 0 or $ff - what matters is the general trend). additionally it would be extra cool if you could look into your C64 and post the type of RAM chips that it uses as well (since the pattern most likely depends on them) - they are labelled 4164 or 4464 or 41464 (please post everything written on it, the exact type and manufacturer is interesting here). Also please post the ASSY NO of the board, as the way RAM is wired up matters as well.

thanks for your help!

PS: if you are curious, Typical is the demo in question... if you can name other examples ("works in CCS64 but not in VICE is often an indicator for it), please post them too!
2016-04-27 20:55
T.M.R

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 748
<Post edited by moderator on 28/4-2016 11:03>

i'm getting something like this...

.:1000 04 14 00 b7 84 04 04 84
.:1008 04 f7 00 b3 a3 ef a3 b7
.:1010 04 f7 04 b3 24 ef 00 27
.:1018 04 b4 00 f3 04 04 00 a7
.:1020 04 10 00 b3 b4 00 00 fb
.:1028 00 b3 00 b3 a3 ff 00 fb
.:1030 04 f3 00 f3 04 ff 00 bb
.:1038 04 b7 00 f3 04 ff 00 b3

...on my workhorse breadbin from a cold start with an AR6 present. The board is an assy. 250425 (made in Hong Kong by Kalex) with most of the RAM saying MCM6665BP20 on the first line and FQQ8502 on the second.

My other breadbin is repeating ff ff 00 00 and seems to swap the values at the start of a page boundary - that's another assy. 250425, the RAM says JAPAN4L3U on the first line and HM4864P-3 on the second.

(i'm squinting a lot to read the numbers, there may be "hiccups" in there...)

i have another old board and i think two C64Cs knocking about that work, could pull them out at the weekend perhaps...
2016-04-27 21:10
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
that first pattern seems... kinda unlikely :) for best results, use the c000 page (higher chance that it wasnt used for whatever) and power off the C64 for half a minute or so
2016-04-27 21:38
T.M.R

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 748
Quoting Groepaz
that first pattern seems... kinda unlikely :) for best results, use the c000 page (higher chance that it wasnt used for whatever) and power off the C64 for half a minute or so


i've just started it again (with just an AR6 present, it's been off since i posted) and here's what i see:

.:c000 54 fb 00 ff 50 ff 00 ef
.:c008 04 ff 00 fb 27 af 90 af
.:c010 04 ff 00 fb 27 af 00 fb
.:c018 00 ff 10 fb a4 ff 00 ff
.:c020 54 fb 99 fb ff ff 99 ab
.:c028 00 fb 00 fb af af a2 af
.:c030 14 fb 04 fb 04 bb 00 bb
.:c038 10 1c 00 fb 86 af 24 ff

Then, after powering down for around two minutes, it looks like this:

.:c000 04 fb 00 ff 06 04 a0 fb
.:c008 04 ff 00 fb a6 ff b2 ff
.:c010 04 ff 00 fb 04 ff 02 fb
.:c018 04 ff 00 fb 04 ff 00 ff
.:c020 04 fb 00 fb 04 85 00 ff
.:c028 00 ff 00 fb ff ff 04 fb
.:c030 04 ff 00 fb 04 ff 00 bb
.:c038 04 fb 00 fb a3 df 54 34

Don't look at me, the odd number might be a typo because i'm tired but there's no simple $00 and $ff pattern! =-)
2016-04-27 22:30
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
WEIRD =)

i have knocked up a very simple test program and added a bit of info here ... the program may be useful for those that dont have a ML monitor handy (do such people exist? =P) and the readme might give you a hint on what kind of description i am looking for.
2016-04-28 02:07
Karmic

Registered: Apr 2015
Posts: 43
.:c000 03 f0 00 f0 00 f0 03 f0
.:c008 0f ff 0f ff 0f ff 0f ff
.:c010 81 ff ff ef ff 0f ff 0f
.:c018 f0 00 f0 00 f0 00 f0 00
.:c020 00 f0 00 f0 b0 f0 00 f0
.:c028 0f ff 0f ff 0f ff 0f ff
.:c030 ff c0 ff 0f ff ef 80 0f
.:c038 f0 00 f0 00 f0 00 f0 01

NEC D41464C 8605FU037, ASSY no. 250466
2016-04-28 07:35
iAN CooG

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 2481
this was also discussed in C64 Emulator Bugs
you can add to the problematic rels:
Comic Art 09
Flying Shark Preview +
2016-04-28 07:38
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Isn't convenient to analyze the 00-3ff area? I think is the primary cause of programs malfunctions...
2016-04-28 08:00
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1246
Quote: Isn't convenient to analyze the 00-3ff area? I think is the primary cause of programs malfunctions...

Everything except the stack is initialized on reset...

I don't think it's especially common to rely on the initial contents of the $0100-$01ff area.
2016-04-28 09:24
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 356
Is this true for all the common carts too?
2016-04-28 09:47
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1246
Yes, most probably. In carts there are obviously some modifications to vectors and things like this though.
2016-04-28 10:36
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
What make ram cells have the values they have after a cold start?
Is a "internal ram chip" question or some external factor can influence them?
Maybe bus 'activity' or other chips init?
Reading this Gpz sentence:
Quote:
repeating ff,ff,00,00,00,00,ff,ff pattern, every $4000 bytes the pattern seems to be inverted (for another $4000 bytes). occasional random bytes

i started thinking if Vic init-activity can influence ram values...
FF/00 are values usually "leaved" on bus by vic during normal operations...
2016-04-28 11:04
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
IAN: what an epic thread that is - we've come a long way since then :)

others: if you post dumps, try to post a page at least, that makes it much easier to see patterns. if you dont want to type it all out, you could also just save c000-d000 in monitor and send the resulting file to me via email. (in this case please put assy no and ram type in the filename AND add the same info in the mail itself)
2016-04-28 11:09
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
Quote:
What make ram cells have the values they have after a cold start?
Is a "internal ram chip" question or some external factor can influence them?
Maybe bus 'activity' or other chips init?

its simple law of physics - at poweron the internal flipflops will flip to either 0 or 1 randomly, roughly with a 50:50 chance. now the actual pattern you see results from the internal organisation of the RAM chips, for example neighboured cells may more likely flip into the same state. additionally *some* RAMs apparently contain reset circuitry that actually makes them start up in a defined way (i dont think this is a case for those old RAMs as found in C64s though).
other chips having an impact on the behaviour is unlikely IMHO - because for that to happen the write line of the RAM would have to be pulled low actively from somewhere, which shouldnt happen at poweron.
2016-04-28 11:16
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1246
It's DRAM we are talking about so the memory cells do not consist of flip-flops. They are basically caps.

I agree that the pattern probably arises from the organisation of the cells. Perhaps half of the cells are referenced to VDD?
2016-04-28 11:22
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
ok perhaps i should have written "RAM cells" :)
2016-04-28 13:32
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1246
An important point about the cells being caps is that they aren't going to have 50:50 to land in any state. The most likely state is uncharged, which will mean 1 or 0 depending on if it is referenced to VDD or GND. Upon a power cycle all cells will (surprisingly slowly) fade towards the uncharged state. A quick power cycle will likely keep most contents.

The source of the spurious bits in the initial state could be due to how the refresh logic is implemented perhaps? E.g an initial glitch that injects some random bits. Remember that there are no resets to the ram chips so some strange startup behaviour is likely.
2016-04-28 14:14
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
sounds convincing :)

infact, now that i checked all my C64s (updates in the repo coming soon) i can say that even the one that first showed a seemingly random pattern (like TMR posted) dropped to mostly $00 and $ff after powering it off for several minutes.
2016-04-28 14:29
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
...mmm...
What happen if you fill all ram with 00 or FF and power-cycle your C64?
If is only a question of caps charge,at least in one case,you should get the perfect 00/FF pattern back...
No?
2016-04-28 14:31
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
i actually tried that on the C64 that retains its RAM content for very long... no, it doesnt improve the situation, you really have to power off for some (!) minutes (!).

i updated the test program and also the readme with results from my own C64s
2016-04-28 14:32
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1246
btw, I think the presence of randomness is an important emulation aspect. Some programs (originals) check for the presence of randomness in the start up pattern as a means of detecting a prefilled memory vs a normal "dirty" startup.
DarkStar BBS V3.1 did this, but I'm sure it was fairly common.

I guess it has to be pseudo random in some smart way, not to violate the reproducability of the startup sequence.
2016-04-28 14:36
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
good point! guess some code for that needs to be added to VICE as well then :)

edit: btw it would be cool to extract some of those "is there randomness in memory" check routines extracted and made into test programs :)
2016-04-28 17:42
ChristopherJam

Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 986
C64C+RR
:b000 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b008 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b018 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b028 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b038 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b040 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b048 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b050 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b058 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b060 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b068 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b070 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b078 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:b080 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b088 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b090 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b098 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0a0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0a8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0b0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0b8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0c0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0c8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0d0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0d8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0e0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0e8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0f0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:b0f8 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff f0

:c000 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c008 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c010 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c018 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c020 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c028 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c030 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c038 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c040 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c048 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c050 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c058 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c060 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c068 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c070 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c078 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff
:c080 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c088 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c090 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c098 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0a0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0a8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0b8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0c0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0c8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0d0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0d8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0e8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
:c0f8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 0f

Note the last byte of each page..

edit: I only powered off for a few seconds, but before that $c000-$c100 contained random crap from whatever I last ran a couple of weeks ago.
2016-04-28 18:09
soci

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 438
Quoting Groepaz
i actually tried that on the C64 that retains its RAM content for very long...

I guess it was not a C64C then as that's where the 10 Ohm discharge resistor was added for the off position.
2016-04-28 18:44
lft

Registered: Jul 2007
Posts: 356
Nah, that resistor drains a lot of caps, but not the ones inside the ram chips. Those are isolated from the outside world when they're not being addressed.
2016-04-28 18:53
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
soci: see the readme in the repo - it infact was a C64C :)

edit: ok so, updated the readme again with config examples for VICE that (mostly) reproduce the patterns listed. also i update the preview of the RAM init pattern in WinVICE r31093 (ie this nights build) so you can try yourself to reproduce the pattern of your C64 there.

Christopher Jam: does the pattern inverting happen every $1000 bytes over the whole memory range? (and could you check what RAM type is in your C64 please?)

where are the others? come one, we need more data! :)
2016-04-28 21:04
Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 797
here's mine, depends on time of day.

:c000 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c008 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c010 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c018 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c020 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c028 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c030 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c038 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c040 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c048 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c050 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c058 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c060 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c068 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c070 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
:c078 p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p p0 0p
2016-04-29 06:45
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
IIRC the C64 -emulated- in the C128 have a ram pattern of 64-$FF/64-$00 at start...
Maybe this was a cause of -incompatibility-, back in the days...

Anyway i started to collect datas from my machines.
I used a Breadbin, a C64c and a C64g.

I cold started all 3 c64 and i dumped all ram from $0800 to $CFFF, then i filled $0800-$CFFF with $FF and power-cycled each machine, waiting a minute before turn it on again.
Then re-dumped same ram area again. Same with $00.

All files, with some photos (expecially those of the Breadbin, which i photographed also ram chips) are in DB folder linked below.

Here is only "cold start" patterns:

C64 breadbin pattern looks like:
.:c000 36 ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 6.......
.:c008 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c010 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c018 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c020 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c028 fe ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c030 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c038 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c040 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c048 ff ff 00 00 fe ff 08 00 ........
.:c050 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c058 ff ff 00 00 bf ff 00 00 ........
.:c060 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c068 ff fb 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c070 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c078 ff ff c0 40 fe fe cc 06 ...@..L.
.:c080 76 fe 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c088 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c090 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c098 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0a0 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0a8 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0b0 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0b8 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0c0 ff ff 00 00 ff ff 00 00 ........

C64C:
.:c000 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c008 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c010 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c018 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c020 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c028 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c030 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c038 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c040 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c048 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c050 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c058 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c060 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c068 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c070 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c078 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ........
.:c080 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c088 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c090 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c098 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0a0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0a8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0b8 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0c0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ........

C64G
.:c000 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c008 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c010 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c018 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c020 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c028 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c030 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c038 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c040 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c048 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c050 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c058 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c060 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c068 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c070 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c078 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c080 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c088 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c090 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c098 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0a0 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0a8 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0b0 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0b8 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........
.:c0c0 00 00 ff ff ff ff 00 00 ........

Maybe C64G pattern is the best one =) ?

All files are here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/34w7h11mps6ss0n/AAB8t2CiRY9kT-5ADrXB..
2016-04-29 10:56
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
could you post fotos from the RAM chips of the other two C64s as well? the case/keyboard is not very interesting for this =)
2016-04-29 12:02
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Other 2 C64 were never opened, and i want to leave them as they are.
Someone else may have similar models and maybe wants to open them...
2016-04-29 13:01
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
well, the model really doesnt tell you anything about the type of RAM (or even the ASSY) :) why not open them? afraid of voiding warranty? =D
2016-04-29 13:38
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Matter of superstition ...
usually we say: "do not touch the sleeping dog", which means: "if something is working, don't thouch it".
I am sure that if I opened them, something stop working ...
=P
PS: I'm not superstitious because it brings bad luck.
=D

Edit: i'm pretty sure that more old are the ram chips, more random values are included in the patterns...
2016-04-29 14:22
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
could you tell the ASSY NO of that breadbin then at least, please? :)
2016-04-29 14:36
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Assy n. 250407 artwork 251137 rev C.
2016-04-29 16:44
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
updated

TMR/Karmic/Christopher Jam: could also make a memory dump?
2016-04-29 18:24
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Just for the record, Typical works if in Vice we set "first byte: $00", "lenght of constant: 4" and "lenght of pattern: 8".
This create a pattern like:
.:c000 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c008 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c010 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c018 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c020 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c028 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c030 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c038 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c040 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c048 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c050 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c058 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c060 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c068 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c070 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c078 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c080 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c088 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c090 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c098 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0a0 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c0a8 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0b0 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
.:c0b8 ff ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 ........
.:c0c0 00 00 00 00 ff ff ff ff ........
2016-04-29 18:26
MagerValp

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 956
https://www.dropbox.com/s/f7anwdudabcd9f4/Foto%202016-04-29%202..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzf5so80buvx62w/Foto%202016-04-29%202..
2016-04-29 18:35
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
flavioweb: for typical the only thing that is needed is that $3fff is 0 (or perhaps even something different to $ff) :)
2016-04-30 14:43
willymanilly

Registered: Jan 2016
Posts: 20
My C64C PAL (ASSY 250466) with Action Replay VI connected has the following power on ram values:-

0000-3fff 128 times $ff, 128 times $00, repeat
4000-7fff 128 times $00, 128 times $ff, repeat
8000-bfff 128 times $00, 128 times $ff, repeat
c000-ffff 128 times $ff, 128 times $00, repeat

There are some random bytes in the above patterns, mainly with the 4 LSB's of those bytes.

I got the same results without AR connected.
2016-05-02 16:06
Pitcher

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Cars in the garage tomorrow morning, I'll dig my 2 out and have a look, both breadbins but with completely different boards.
2016-05-02 16:10
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
willymanilly: could you check what type of RAM is on that board, please?
2016-05-03 07:11
willymanilly

Registered: Jan 2016
Posts: 20
It has 2xMN41464-15 Japan 6D632 in U9 and U10
2016-05-03 07:29
willymanilly

Registered: Jan 2016
Posts: 20
I don't use dropbox so I just emailed pictures to you. You might want to check your spam if you don't receive them.
2016-05-03 12:40
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
thanks!

so where are the rest? :)
2016-05-03 20:19
Fierman
Account closed

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 84
too lazy to dump and xfer file

http://i.imgur.com/Xlc9IBu.jpg

assy 250407

and here the internals:

http://i.imgur.com/9dOVV9O.jpg
2016-05-04 18:42
Hypnosis

Registered: Mar 2015
Posts: 25
Mine looks like this:

ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
0000 0000 0000 00ff ff00 0000 bf00 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 4000 4000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
0000 0000 0000 00ff ff00 0000 bf00 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 4000 4000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
0000 0000 0000 00ff ff00 0000 bf00 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 4000 4000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000
0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff
ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff


ASSY NO.250407
RAM M3764-20RS OKI Japan 3Y311
2016-05-06 09:22
Pitcher

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Heres a sample, have photos if needed of full dumps, both from a cold start after being sat in the cuboard, last used 1 week+ ago.

Bread bin 1 - 1983 - assy 250407 - serial B1442003

has had some chips changed by the looks of things

C000 -

00 FF EE FF 00 00 00 EB
FF 00 FF 41 EE E2 FF 00
EE 00 FF FF FF 00 FF 00
EE 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
00 FF FF FF EA A3 EF 40
EB EF FF 21 00 C0 FF E3
EF 00 FF A0 FF 00 FF 00



Bread bin 2 - 1984 - assy 250425 - serial B2399395

c000 -

FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 77 00 FF 00
FF 88 75 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 DF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
2016-05-06 14:32
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
could you also check the type of RAM chips please?
2016-05-06 17:44
Pitcher

Registered: Aug 2006
Posts: 61
Quote: Heres a sample, have photos if needed of full dumps, both from a cold start after being sat in the cuboard, last used 1 week+ ago.

Bread bin 1 - 1983 - assy 250407 - serial B1442003

has had some chips changed by the looks of things

C000 -

00 FF EE FF 00 00 00 EB
FF 00 FF 41 EE E2 FF 00
EE 00 FF FF FF 00 FF 00
EE 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
00 FF FF FF EA A3 EF 40
EB EF FF 21 00 C0 FF E3
EF 00 FF A0 FF 00 FF 00



Bread bin 2 - 1984 - assy 250425 - serial B2399395

c000 -

FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 77 00 FF 00
FF 88 75 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 DF 00 FF 00 FF 00
FF 00 FF 00 FF 00 FF 00


Breadbin 1 - mn4164p
3n6-15

Breadbin 2 - mn4164p
4d1-15
2016-05-19 18:50
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1555
Coding my own emu (don't ask why) and I just noticed that the KERNEL relies on uninitiated memory. Check this small startup dump of the KERNEL:

FCE2  A2        LDX #$FF                        A:00 X:00 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FCE4  78        SEI                             A:00 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FCE5  9A        TXS                             A:00 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FCE6  D8        CLD                             A:00 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FF
FCE7  20        JSR $FD02                       A:00 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FF
FD02  A2        LDX #$05                        A:00 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FD04  BD        LDA $FD0F,X                     A:00 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FD07  DD        CMP $8003,X                     A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FD0A  D0        BNE $FD0F                       A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FD0F  60        RTS                             A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FCEA  D0        BNE $FCEF                       A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FF
FCEF  8E        STX $D016                       A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FF
FCF2  20        JSR $FDA3                       A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FF
FDA3  A9        LDA #$7F                        A:30 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDA5  8D        STA $DC0D                       A:7F X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDA8  8D        STA $DD0D                       A:7F X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDAB  8D        STA $DC00                       A:7F X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDAE  A9        LDA #$08                        A:7F X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDB0  8D        STA $DC0E                       A:08 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDB3  8D        STA $DD0E                       A:08 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDB6  8D        STA $DC0F                       A:08 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDB9  8D        STA $DD0F                       A:08 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDBC  A2        LDX #$00                        A:08 X:05 Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDBE  8E        STX $DC03                       A:08 X:00 Y:00 P:26 SP:FD
FDC1  8E        STX $DD03                       A:08 X:00 Y:00 P:26 SP:FD
FDC4  8E        STX $D418                       A:08 X:00 Y:00 P:26 SP:FD
FDC7  CA        DEX                             A:08 X:00 Y:00 P:26 SP:FD
FDC8  8E        STX $DC02                       A:08 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FDCB  A9        LDA #$07                        A:08 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FDCD  8D        STA $DD00                       A:07 X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDD0  A9        LDA #$3F                        A:07 X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDD2  8D        STA $DD02                       A:3F X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDD5  A9        LDA #$E7                        A:3F X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDD7  85        STA $01                         A:E7 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FDD9  A9        LDA #$2F                        A:E7 X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD
FDDB  85        STA $00                         A:2F X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDDD  AD        LDA $02A6                       A:2F X:FF Y:00 P:24 SP:FD
FDE0  F0        BEQ $FDEC                       A:FF X:FF Y:00 P:A4 SP:FD

Right there at $FDDD!!! What the fuck? :)

Kind regards, Andreas
2016-05-19 19:03
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
Code at $FDDD is executed twice during reset:
 $FF5B/65371:   Initialize screen editor

Jump from $FCFB, $FF81:

FF5B: 20 18 E5  JSR $E518     ; Initialize I/O

Jump from $FF61:

FF5E: AD 12 D0  LDA $D012     ; VIC: Raster Position
FF61: D0 FB     BNE $FF5E
FF63: AD 19 D0  LDA $D019     ; VIC: Interrupt Request Register (IRR)
FF66: 29 01     AND #$01
FF68: 8D A6 02  STA $02A6     ; Flag: TV Standard
FF6B: 4C DD FD  JMP $FDDD     ; Enable Timer

first "setup" is overwritten by the second call at $FDDD
2016-05-19 20:10
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1555
yes, ok, still bad design. More over, when autostarting files the timing between c64 / vic may vary depending on men init. Can be good to know. :)
2016-05-19 20:35
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
please.... keep that thread free from offtopic (make a new thread, its interesting afterall :)) - but post your own RAM init pattern! we really need more data!
2016-05-19 21:42
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1555
Quote: please.... keep that thread free from offtopic (make a new thread, its interesting afterall :)) - but post your own RAM init pattern! we really need more data!

Sorry! :)
2016-09-30 21:05
Flavioweb

Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 387
I have a ram dump from a breadbin with ceramic ram chips:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93655104/CeramicRAM.zip

At powerup
0000:0000 | 00 00 00 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ...~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:0010 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E FF | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~ÿ
0000:0020 | 83 81 00 71  00 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 71 | ...q...........q
0000:0030 | 83 81 00 00  89 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 0A | ................
0000:0040 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:0050 | FF FF 7E 7F  FF FF 7F 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~.ÿÿ.~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:0060 | 81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 60  81 83 00 00 | ...........`....
0000:0070 | 71 83 00 00  81 81 00 04  81 81 00 00  83 40 75 00 | q............@u.
0000:0080 | DF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ßÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:0090 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E FF | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~ÿ
0000:00A0 | 8F 81 00 71  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 71 | ...q...........q
0000:00B0 | 8B 81 00 00  89 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 0A | ................
0000:00C0 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:00D0 | FF FF 7E 7F  FF FF 7B 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~.ÿÿ{~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:00E0 | 81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 74  81 83 00 00 | ...........t....
0000:00F0 | 51 83 00 00  81 81 00 04  81 81 00 00  81 01 75 00 | Q.............u.
0000:0100 | 76 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | v~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:0110 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF 7E | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿ~
0000:0120 | 06 00 81 F0  81 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 F0 | ...ð...........ð
0000:0130 | 02 00 81 81  08 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 8B | ................
0000:0140 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:0150 | 7E 7E FF FE  7E 7E FE FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿþ~~þÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:0160 | 00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 F1  00 02 81 81 | ...........ñ....
0000:0170 | F0 02 81 81  00 00 81 85  00 00 81 81  02 C1 F4 81 | ð............Áô.
0000:0180 | 5A 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | Z~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:0190 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF 7E | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿ~
0000:01A0 | 0A 00 81 50  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 50 | ...P...........P
0000:01B0 | 0A 00 81 81  08 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 8B | ................
0000:01C0 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:01D0 | 7E 7E FF 7E  7E 7E DA FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿ~~~Úÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:01E0 | 00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 F1  00 02 81 81 | ...........ñ....
0000:01F0 | 50 02 81 81  00 00 81 85  00 00 81 81  00 C0 F4 81 | P............Àô.


Filling ram with $FF then turned off and on after 30 secs:
0000:0000 | 00 00 00 8A  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  8B FF 7E 7E | ....ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~.ÿ~~
0000:0010 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 8A | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~.
0000:0020 | 81 80 0C 00  81 81 00 00  E1 81 C0 00  81 81 00 00 | ........á.À.....
0000:0030 | 81 81 00 54  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  41 81 00 00 | ...T........A...
0000:0040 | FF FF 7E FF  FF FF 7E 7E  FF 9F 7E FF  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~ÿÿÿ~~ÿ.~ÿÿÿ~~
0000:0050 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  EE FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~îÿ~~
0000:0060 | 81 81 00 80  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 80 74 | ...............t
0000:0070 | 81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 06  83 81 00 00 | ................
0000:0080 | FF FF 3E 8F  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  8F FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ>.ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~.ÿ~~
0000:0090 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 0B | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~.
0000:00A0 | 81 81 0C 00  81 81 00 00  F5 81 A0 00  81 81 00 00 | ........õ. .....
0000:00B0 | 81 81 02 54  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  01 81 00 00 | ...T............
0000:00C0 | FF FF 7E FE  FF FF 7E 7E  FF 9F 7E FE  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~þÿÿ~~ÿ.~þÿÿ~~
0000:00D0 | FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E  FF FF 7E 7E | ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~
0000:00E0 | 81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 00 00  81 81 80 74 | ...............t
0000:00F0 | 81 81 00 00  A1 81 00 00  81 81 00 0C  81 81 00 00 | ....¡...........
0000:0100 | 7E 7E BF 1A  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  0A 7E FF FF | ~~¿.~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ.~ÿÿ
0000:0110 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF 0A | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿ.
0000:0120 | 00 00 8D 81  00 00 81 81  70 00 61 81  00 00 81 81 | ........p.a.....
0000:0130 | 00 00 81 D5  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  D0 00 81 81 | ...Õ........Ð...
0000:0140 | 7E 7E FF 7E  7E 7E FF FF  7E 5E FF 7E  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿ~~~ÿÿ~^ÿ~~~ÿÿ
0000:0150 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ
0000:0160 | 00 00 81 01  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 01 F5 | ...............õ
0000:0170 | 00 00 81 81  20 00 81 81  00 00 81 87  02 00 81 81 | .... ...........
0000:0180 | 7E 7E BF 0B  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  0A 7E FF FF | ~~¿.~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ.~ÿÿ
0000:0190 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF 8B | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿ.
0000:01A0 | 00 01 8D 81  00 00 81 81  50 00 41 81  00 00 81 81 | ........P.A.....
0000:01B0 | 00 00 83 D5  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  C0 00 81 C1 | ...Õ........À..Á
0000:01C0 | 7E 7E FF 7F  7E 7E FF DF  7E 5E FF 7F  7E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿ.~~ÿß~^ÿ.~~ÿÿ
0000:01D0 | 7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  7E 7E FF FF  5E 7E FF FF | ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ~~ÿÿ^~ÿÿ
0000:01E0 | 00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 81 81  00 00 01 F5 | ...............õ
0000:01F0 | 00 00 81 81  20 00 81 81  00 00 81 8D  00 00 81 81 | .... ...........
2016-10-03 18:00
Groepaz

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 9100
thanks!
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