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Forums > C64 Coding > Screen limits
2005-10-26 07:50
HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 682
Screen limits

Once when i got myself a C= monitor, I made some tests to see what the actual limits were. Keeping in mind all the bugs i left in Royal Arte, after this i would never have to leave any visual bugs because of not seing them.

But now in EMU-age, the same horrible bugs appear again in many demos. Vice only shows 272 x 384 pixels, and people appearantly start to think that's the way to go. And it suxx big time!

So when i found my old screen tests yesterday, i thought maybe i should put this up here. I also had some info about sprite-limits in the borders. Let's get started.


Screen limits
-------------
Vertically:
First visible line: 8 (d012 = 8)
Last visible line: 12b (d012 = 2b)
That makes 292 visible lines totally.

Transfered to sprite positions we get..
spt-pos 12a: one line visible in lower border.
spt-pos 12b: one line visible in upper border.

Horizontally:
Left border: 48 visible pixels (6 chars).
Right border: 36 visible pixels (4.5 chars).
That makes 404 pixels, right.

Sprite bugs in left border:
All sprites invisible at positions 1f8-1ff.
spt7 invisible at pos <= 1ce.
spt8 invisivle at pos <= 1ee.

Sprite bugs in right border:
spt1 stretch bug at pos >= 14b.
spt2 stretch bug at pos >= 15b.
Bug above first line at pos => 163: spt 3,4,5.
Bug on last line at pos => 164: spt 3,4,5.


Ok. I think that's all. Does anyone have other specs? Please don't post if you have a lowsy TV-set, they always sukk. Did i get those sprite-bugs correctly? Sounds totally wierd :). And finally: DON'T RELEASE before you checked your demo against this spec >:E.
 
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2007-03-30 18:12
Wile Coyote
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 580
I have to admit, there was a time when I assumed, naturally, that VICE displayed the whole C64 screen. When putting together some demo part designs, I used the VICE screen size for my template. Thanks to HCL, I now have a new screen size template ;)

There are now two important things that the people behind VICE should fix: 1. Sort out the VICE screen size and 2. Sort out the music to screen timing (as some demos suffer as a result).

Still, there’s no substitute for using a real C64.

I used to own two Commodore monitors. One would allow for the horizontal of the screen to be adjusted (shifted left, right, as well has stretched), while the second monitor(1084ST) would allow both the horizontal and vertical to be adjusted (shifted left, right, up, down, as well be stretched horizontally and vertically) although on this monitor up scrollers do not work so well, as the scan lines appear to be more condensed nearer the top and bottom of the screen.
2007-03-30 21:40
Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 4418
...also dont forget that vice emulation is not 100% correct.
2007-03-30 21:58
tlr

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1224
Quote:
There are now two important things that the people behind VICE should fix: 1. Sort out the VICE screen size and 2. Sort out the music to screen timing (as some demos suffer as a result).

As for 2 there is not much to do except for low latency drivers like ASIO.
Remember that a true emulation must also be interactive so long prebuffering of the graphics isn't what you want.

You could have a switchable mode for non-interactive, perfect sync execution of a program though.
2007-03-31 11:40
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1241
It can still be interactive with a frame buffer, the latency is just higher.

Wile: Looks like my border patch will be added to the next release of VICE.
2007-04-01 12:30
Wile Coyote
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 580
Quote: It can still be interactive with a frame buffer, the latency is just higher.

Wile: Looks like my border patch will be added to the next release of VICE.


Will the border patch allow VICE to show the whole screen? if so, great!
2007-04-01 16:14
Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 1241
There are 3 options: normal borders, full borders, and debug borders. Full borders shows as much as you see on a monitor, and debug borders shows the full 63x8 * 312 pixels area, which is impossible with a real device.
2007-04-01 16:29
Wile Coyote
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 580
Quote: There are 3 options: normal borders, full borders, and debug borders. Full borders shows as much as you see on a monitor, and debug borders shows the full 63x8 * 312 pixels area, which is impossible with a real device.

Full borders sounds good. I remember seeing Krestage, and theres a part with 8 'KRESTAGE' sprites in the lower border complete with 2 hires up scrollers (also in the lower border). Anyway, I could believe how much info was missing from the screen when using VICE. The lower 30% of the 'KRESTAGE' sprites were not being diplayed.

As for a debug option. Well I'm sure that will come in handy for the coders. I'm no coder, although I did get some rasters colour cycling after someone sent me some code, to show me how. It made zero sense to me. I'm sure I would understand C64 code if there was a book avaialble explaining how to, in logical terms (my type of logic :).
2009-02-23 16:09
DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 299
Quote: sideborder stuff doesnt impresses me anymore like back then. Come on, adding a sta $d016 stx $d016 to your code is really so cool ? How about coming up with something new instead of putting one of the effects seen a thousand times before to the borders because thats so "cool" ?

Oh my, oswaldb0gar is on the loose again! <:-)
Border KICKS ASS, always has, alway will! *anything* looks *so much* better, more impressive and cooler if you put it into the border! It's a fact, and there'*s no denying, hehe... I've gotten SO MUCH positive feedback over the years for anything we ever made that goes into the border i think I can say with confidence that you're pretty much alone with your opinion..

Of course I don't mind new ideas either, but I do not see at all how that is an "either or" matter!... Where's the law that says you can't put new effects into the border, only old ones? <:-)

2009-02-23 17:54
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1534
Quote: Oh my, oswaldb0gar is on the loose again! <:-)
Border KICKS ASS, always has, alway will! *anything* looks *so much* better, more impressive and cooler if you put it into the border! It's a fact, and there'*s no denying, hehe... I've gotten SO MUCH positive feedback over the years for anything we ever made that goes into the border i think I can say with confidence that you're pretty much alone with your opinion..

Of course I don't mind new ideas either, but I do not see at all how that is an "either or" matter!... Where's the law that says you can't put new effects into the border, only old ones? <:-)



Come on DeeKay... that was AGEs ago...
2009-02-23 18:03
Ninja

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 390
DK: Geez, you are referring to a 4 years old statement that Oswald relativated since then? Besides, there is no per se, as you mentioned. There are parts which do not look better if you extend them in x a bit for the price of cutting them more than half in y, despite all technical complexity. If you manage to have them in the borders without drawbacks, that's way cool, of course.
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