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2021-12-23 23:41

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1945

Release id #212202 : 21 Second Backup V4.1

<Post edited by Count Zero on 23/12-2021 23:53>

Wont move all the crappy comment - just this and force further talk to here:

Quote:

I call BS on the screen loading time!

But thank you for confirming the SCREENSHOT I posted was REAL! aha!
So please let the real one stay

But maybe it just FEELS fast.
Anyhow, here's the ACTUAL load sequence in REAL time... with the REAL screens!

https://zerofusion.com/21_second_backup_cable/21_second_backup_..

It's the FASTEST copier ever made, full stop. NO other copier can copy a full disk in under 21 seconds.
Dual drive is even faster (no disk swaps)
NOTHING can touch this, not by a mile!

Loading speed TO the program != speed the program achieves on copying. ANYONE here just expects a friggin 20 blocks tool load from a D64.

Why do you mix these things so hard around?

And and -- screenshots - READ on the forums and LEARN about reasons - dont fucking just argue around (with me or others).

2021-12-23 23:51

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Also the "proof" shown in the video must be an altered version of the posted g64 (?) - that vice version wont load the g64 in the entry :) Please tell the exact vice version (and options used) and post the exact g64 used. I patched my copy of vice locally to emulate the required cable for that matter.

Oh and of course there were other copiers ... the infamous 15seconds speeddos copy comes to mind. Also a few others - with parallel cable only the disk rotation is the limiting factor, that means 15 secs for simple read/write or 21 secs for scan/read/write or read/write/verify cycle.

2021-12-24 15:06

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1114

has zibri changed his handle or what?

2021-12-24 21:27

Mace

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799

"master_hacker: you ARE aware that you just told the guy who made the fastest disk loader for 1541 that he doesn't know how a fast loader works? :P"

I LOL'ed :-D

2022-02-26 09:25

bluebirdpod

Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 8

Well I dug out my original 4.1 Dual Drive setup that I bought about 12+ years ago on Ebay its all original and complete. Factory made Dual Drive Cables made cheapo, Box Book, Sx-64 Insert, and 4.1 update sheet. and two original disks, one is 4.1 and it load up fine, the other disk, does not ever finish loading. Dual Drive setup was tricky, one drive didnt like being the "MASTER" or the first drive, so its real easy since both drives have to be Device 8 to work. So switch around and then copy a simple to copy game, PLATOON V1.1 NTSC version, and it copied it, but it wouldnt run.

The game goes blank. Tried all different settings, back and forth between the drives, ohm out the cable end to end, checked the cheesy sockets that it is made out of, all fine, change the 6522 chips that it came with, then you can use either drive as the boot-master and power on the second in any order, so must have been one flaky 6522. Well NO CAN COPY again !

So I dig out Burstnibbler 1.9r+ with 512k REU, and same drive, same 6522 chip, and it can copy Platoon v1.1 NTSC just fine, booted all the way into the game and it worked.
tried both drives, works fine.

Ohm out the 21 second cables again. just fine, it copies, the disk has the directory, the game loads the title screen, then after loading some more it seems to lock up after failing the protection check getting a blank screen no errors, and no drive rattling.

Set the program to SUPER and verify doesnt seem to change anything.

Tried Datel Factory Original BurstNibbler 1.9 that I have 2 originals, no reu and it copies it just fine, used the 1.9R+ version with REU support it copies just fine.

Whats the big deal its a crapola copier, FAST CRAP is still FAST CRAP COPY that wont load. Tried older versions from here and same thing, it locks up after protection check with blank screen.

This disk can be nibble copied and parameter to remove protection check so its not complicated.

2023-03-25 18:46

master_hacker

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 9

Quote: has zibri changed his handle or what?

Groepaz, the video doesn't use an altered G64, it was made using this exact G64 image. Nothing altered, nothing changed.

The video shows the vice screen, attaching this exact G64 and loading it.

As for Vice, the only version of Vice that works with G64 images properly is WinVice v2.4 SPS, which was what was used to make the video.

Same problem with Paperback writer, which only that version of Vice works because the extra G64 support was removed in newer versions of Vice.

I never claimed it was any good, but that's not the point.
I don't care for it, but lots of people think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
And nothing copies everything.

Also G64/Vice doesn't support multi-density on a single track

2023-03-25 19:23

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Quote:

the video doesn't use an altered G64, it was made using this exact G64 image. Nothing altered, nothing changed.

Please link to the exact g64 that works in that particular VICE version. It *must* be an altered G64 - or it *must* be an altered VICE. Because that VICE version does not support the type of parallel cable that is absolutely required to load this program.
Quote:

because the extra G64 support was removed in newer versions of Vice.

There was nothing removed. There are a lot of myths and half truths circulating regarding this topic, often because people think when something breaks, it was "removed". and then ppl dont realise that stuff that broke also got fixed later.
Regarding the SPS patches, they are (of course) still there, almost unmodified even.
Quote:

Also G64/Vice doesn't support multi-density on a single track

No other tool or emulator does either for that matter - it just doesnt matter for anything we have seen so far. A protection that not only checks "is it readable at this density" but also check" is it no more readable at another density" would require it - feel free to provide an example :) (and then i bet it just works using p64, which is the better format for that kind of stuff anyway)

2023-04-02 06:31

master_hacker

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 9

The exact G64 that works is the one that's posted here, which is shown and confirmed in the video.
Others have proven it works by confirming the screenshot is valid from the loading screen of this image.

the G64 that's posted here has confirmed working and does not need to be "altered" to work, it works just fine, as the video shows.

You can download Vice 2.4 SPS here: https://www.kryoflux.com/download/WinVICE-2.4a-SPS.zip

Nothing in Vice 2.4 SPS has been "altered" to make this work, going into preferences and setting the proper machine and drive emulation and features within Vice is NOT an "alteration". there's no magic here.

Drive settings: 1541, Parallel cable standard, never extend, idle none, no drive expansion.

model settings: NTSC with OLD SID.

true drive emulation must be ON (this setting is NOT with the rest where you might expect it to be)

The enclosed video PROVES this works, WITHOUT alteration.

The pi1541 v2.0 is supposed to be coming out soon,
it will have parallel drive support.
You could theoretically connect a real 1541 with parallel to Vice to the pi1541 and copy a real disk directly to a G64.
This will in theory work with a real c64 and real 1541 and pi1541 v2, so technically if Vice had proper G64 support as in 2.4 SPS it should also work there.
That would have some real practical use.
I'm waiting for the new release, there's no ETA yet.

This is NOT the ONLY title that only 2.4 SPS works with, there are MANY other G64 images such as Paperback Writer, Filer and Planner - all posted to Bombjack because of this issue. I didn't post them here because of threads like this one.

The Vice team *broke* G64 support, by removing all the extra G64 support in SPS when the next version was released.

There have been filed bug reports about this with full logs and details, which have been verified by the Vice team.

The Vice team have said they have NO interest in fixing these issues or in re-instating the G64 support from Vice 2.4 SPS because "it's only a few titles" and "it's not a game" and "it's not the latest version".
There's no interest in productivity software like Paperback.

I heard a rumor there was apparently some issue between the Vice team and the SPS team, I also heard a rumor the same about Vice and Kryoflux. But I try not to believe rumors.

So we users have to maintain two different Vice installs, one for every day use, and one for all those that the latest Vice doesn't handle.

Another example: Vice/G64 does *NOT* support images that have multiple densities on a single track. Even 2.4 SPS doesn't support this :(

UPDATE - try some of these on a recent version of Vice:
https://commodore.bombjack.org/commodore/disks/other/paperback-..

2023-04-02 21:06

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Quote:

The exact G64 that works is the one that's posted here

so you mean this?
Quote:

Nothing in Vice 2.4 SPS has been "altered" to make this work, going into preferences and setting the proper machine and drive emulation and features within Vice is NOT an "alteration". there's no magic here.

Drive settings: 1541, Parallel cable standard, never extend, idle none, no drive expansion.

model settings: NTSC with OLD SID.

true drive emulation must be ON (this setting is NOT with the rest where you might expect it to be)

Using those settings, using the linked SPS VICE and the above g64... it loads to the title screen, then after pressing space loads one more track and then "1541 CPU: JAM $0713"
Now i must be doing something wrong - what is it? Could you post your vice.ini that makes it work?

Quote:

This is NOT the ONLY title that only 2.4 SPS works with, there are MANY other G64 images such as Paperback Writer, Filer and Planner - all posted to Bombjack because of this issue. I didn't post them here because of threads like this one.

Of course the one and only place to post such thing is the VICE bugtracker.

That said, there is no bug report about this backup program. And as far as i can see, the only (open) reported case of a non working g64 is one that *broke* with the 2.4 SPS fixes :)

Quote:

The Vice team *broke* G64 support, by removing all the extra G64 support in SPS

There was nothing removed. Nothing. Nada. Zero. Where did you get this idea from?

Quote:

There have been filed bug reports about this with full logs and details, which have been verified by the Vice team.

Yeah? Where? (i wonder what "full logs and details" that would be even).

Quote:

The Vice team have said they have NO interest in fixing these issues or in re-instating the G64 support from Vice 2.4 SPS because "it's only a few titles" and "it's not a game" and "it's not the latest version".

Again, where? Being the VICE maintainer for at least a decade now, i think you are mixing up some things there.

Quote:

Another example: Vice/G64 does *NOT* support images that have multiple densities on a single track. Even 2.4 SPS doesn't support this :(

Sounds like you were a bit too close to Zibri lately :) The truth is, its a technical restriction of the format, it'd be incredibly complex to implement only for reading, and seriously terrible clusterfuck for writing. (Its not the only restriction of the g64 format, btw)

Quote:

UPDATE - try some of these on a recent version of Vice:

And of course these never worked in the SPS version either - support for doublesided g64 files was added much later (and i am not surprised it doesnt work either - anything not 1541 is way less accurate, noone worked on the 1571 code to make the same fixes).

2023-04-03 02:51

master_hacker

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 9

paperback writer works just fine in 2.4 SPS
21 second backup (this image) does NOT CPU jam in 2.4 SPS or 3.0 (non-SPS)

The bug report was about paperback writer 2.4
No one is going to waste their time with bug reports if the Vice Team isn't going to work on it because it's "only 1 title" or "it's not a game" or "it's not the latest version"

BTW this 21 second backup G64 image and the Paperback writer G64 images also work in WinVice v3.0

I just retested this exact G64 downloaded from here to be sure, with the WinVice 3.0 from the following place,
works perfectly!

Link from the official Vice page:
https://vice-emu.sourceforge.io/windows.html

"Old (VICE 3.0) native binary distributions"
as "Binary for MS-Windows 64bit (amd64/x64): WinVICE-3.0-x64.7z"

Direct link:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/vice-emu/files/releases/binarie..

Looks like you can also get Vice 3.0 from CSDB here-

VICE 3.0

I can say with absolute certainly this works 100% in 2.4 SPS or v3.0 (non-SPS)
but does NOT work in recent versions of Vice (v3.5+) as Vice Team removed the extra G64 handling sometime after v3.2

as above I just grabbed 3.0 fresh, unzip, ran it, set to 1541, set standard parallel cable, attached this G64 image (fresh download) and ran it just fine, works perfectly!

I also just tested it with WinVice 3.2 from the official Vice page as above under "Old (VICE 3.2) native binary distribution"
direct link: http://sourceforge.net/projects/vice-emu/files/releases/binarie..

Set to 1541, standard parallel, attached this image, works perfectly!

The enclosed video proves 100% this absolutely works.

But this is *NOT* the proper place for this discussion!
This should be handled in the Vice Support Forums!

Please close this thread, it's off-topic!

2023-04-03 07:57

LordCrass

Registered: Apr 2023
Posts: 8

You have to attach the disk image as read-only.

It doesn't work in newer Vice versions due to a 1541 VIA timer issue that crept in at some point.

PBW doesn't work in newer versions due to, ironically, better emulation in Vice 1541. In newer versions changing the density setting seems to adjust how bits clock into the shift register and they come in wrong if it doesn't match what the track is defined as, like the real thing does. Without speed-zone support, you can't accurately represent this in a G64 (single sector written at different density).

2023-04-03 09:54

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Quote:

paperback writer works just fine in 2.4 SPS

The images you linked are for C128 and use double sided g64. 2.4 can not even attach them. Are you sure you know what you are talking about?
Quote:

as Vice Team removed the extra G64 handling sometime after v3.2

You obviously don't want to help, but keep repeating your nonsense instead. Please go back to where you came from, you are wasting my time.
Quote:

This should be handled in the Vice Support Forums!

Is that the same place where your buddies reported those non existing bug reports? Perhaps as project lead, i should know about those forums too? *shrug*
Quote:

It doesn't work in newer Vice versions due to a 1541 VIA timer issue that crept in at some point.

Sure it's a VIA issue? And more importantly: any idea how to test for it?
Quote:

PBW doesn't work in newer versions due to, ironically, better emulation in Vice 1541.

That phenomena is something ppl like mr.minihacker really need to understand, indeed.
Quote:

In newer versions changing the density setting seems to adjust how bits clock into the shift register and they come in wrong if it doesn't match what the track is defined as, like the real thing does.

I'd have to check the code again to make sure - but i dont think anyone touched that code since the SPS patches. Actually a lot of the "working" g64 support relies on the bits being "valid" regardless of the speedzone, changing this would break so much more :)

So this boils down to: a test program is needed, as so often :) I wouldnt even be surprised if the problem is something completely different, not even drive related. Wouldnt be the first time that happens.

2023-04-03 10:55

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

OK, did a quick code check... As expected a) any speedzone info from the g64 is ignored (see https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/vice/sr.. ). Other than that, the speedzone set in the drives VIA is only used to compute the size of a bitcell (search for "speed_zone" in https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/vice/sr.. ) - So very unlikely this is what changed that broke PBW :) Perhaps try setting both "wobble" settings to 0 (and if that does the trick, a bug report wouldnt hurt =P)

As for 21sec backup, in the initial loader, the c64 code doesnt even receive garbage - it gets all $FF. That smells like an easy fix... if we had this code standalone in a test program :) A bug report wouldnt hurt regarding this one either (on the bug tracker please, not this mystical place that apparently some people use)

2023-04-03 18:57

LordCrass

Registered: Apr 2023
Posts: 8

I could've sworn I'd seen data read incorrectly when the density bits in $1c00 were wrong for what the track was set to, but I just tried it in Vice 3.7 and it doesn't seem to matter what those bits are, GCR still comes in correctly. huh.

As for the VIA timers, no I'm not sure that's what it is, as I just tried Vice 3.7 with Galaxian which has a routine that uses these, and it still works. The issue in 21sec is a decrypt loop that uses the timers and some unintended opcodes and at the end the timer values are correct in Vice 3.1, but wrong in 3.7, result is garbage decrypt and crash.

If I get time, I'll pull the routine out and make a test from it and submit a bug report.

2023-04-03 19:10

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Quote:

If I get time, I'll pull the routine out and make a test from it and submit a bug report.

That would be really nice! There are really too many possible places where this could go wrong, debugging it without a minimal testcase is a bit too annoying :)

2023-04-05 00:31

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Just for the records: what broke 21 sec backup has in fact _nothing_ to do with G64 support, or even drive emulation - i added the dummy accesses to the "not cycle exact" 6502 cpu core a while ago, and that unfortunately resulted in some dummy accesses being in the wrong order. Which apparently confuses this decryption code (perhaps other things). The commit is r37549, some time after 3.4 was released. Tricky to fix unfortunately.

Having a test program - or knowing which opcode exactly is the problem - would be still nice, of course :)

https://sourceforge.net/p/vice-emu/bugs/1859/

2023-04-05 06:17

master_hacker

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 9

Groepaz, it'd be nice if it could be fixed up enough so that the Paperback Writer, Paperback Filer, and Paperback Planner would also work.

There are quite a number of people who would very much like to see this.

I know this all works in Vice 2.4 SPS, 3.0, 3.1, and 3.2
but recent version capability would be nice.

Much appreciated anything that can be done for Paperback titles, and many thanks in advance!

2023-04-07 21:14

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11437

Step 1 to make it happen: make a bug report with testcase

PS: r43647 should fix the 21 sec backup

2023-04-07 22:29

LordCrass

Registered: Apr 2023
Posts: 8

Indeed, it does.

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