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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Release id #236084 : Yes, you are all wrong
But is it the "cultural marxism" what this prod refers to?
My understanding is that it's a actually an American conspiracy theory. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The term "Cultural Marxism" refers to a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory which misrepresents the Frankfurt School as being responsible for modern progressive movements, identity politics, and political correctness.
The conspiracy theory posits that there is an ongoing and intentional academic and intellectual effort to subvert Western society via a planned culture war that undermines the Christian values of traditionalist conservatism and seeks to replace them with culturally liberal values.
Source |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
There are also slight (less academic) variations like "All those hippies from the 60s/70s are now grown up and went to become teachers and politicians and now force their leftist ideology among our children" and so on ...
Typical paranoia stuff. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Good thing these crazy conspiracy guys are all too under-educated to know about Rudi Dutschke and “The Long march through the institutions”. ;-) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@mankeli : if you want to know what this prod is about, you can read the author’s comments here : Super Tuuhosbow
and here : Release id #235548 : Super Tuuhosbow |
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bugjam
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2589 |
Quote: Good thing these crazy conspiracy guys are all too under-educated to know about Rudi Dutschke and “The Long march through the institutions”. ;-)
mmd :-D |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: @mankeli : if you want to know what this prod is about, you can read the author’s comments here : Super Tuuhosbow
and here : Release id #235548 : Super Tuuhosbow
I have read one of the comments, and considering the fact that author comes from country where they had "lgbt free zones" (and thought it was cool ;-) and still keep antiabortion laws that lead to death of mothers that had stillborn children (in hospitals and under medical supervision - how bizarre is that), I'm not suprised that he took this side. It don't judge, it's in their nature. I reserve the right to interpret the demo *any way I want* though. ;-) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Quoting CreaMDit's in their nature
Roman, please, do not reply to a generalization with another generalization. Thanks. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Quoting CreaMDit's in their nature
Roman, please, do not reply to a generalization with another generalization. Thanks.
That was of course totally intended. "What goes around comes around." Perhaps, I should have said "his nature/upbringing" though. But I hope there is a bright future on the other side of rainbow for our countries, and it's people, that keep voting (in significant numbers) for populists firmly rooted in prejudiced beliefs.
Anyway, good luck in the upcoming parliamentary elections. |
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TSM
Registered: Jan 2007
Posts: 42 |
Very nice picture. Also kudos for mocking the mainstream narrative. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Jammer : I’m reacting to your comment/vote on this prod exclusively out of my utter respect for you, both for your person and your work. So I beg you not to misunderstand me. I know you know that the author of this prod means that by giving him 10 you support him and his ‘cause’ because I know you’re a smart guy. And I know you know your “I disapprove of the message…but” doesn’t mean shit to him. And I know you know some things should not be touched. Like giving praise to those beautiful uniforms Hugo Boss made for the SS for example. Or giving praise to the work of a half crazed angry hallucinating guy who keeps ranting about “cultural marxism” and “fighting” even after what Breivik had done with the same “cultural marxism” in his head, on his lips, and eventually in his hands. Especially after this man insulted all Germans and double especially after he bragged that “most normal people and the majority of his nation” supported him. Triple especially after him putting Ukrainian flag into his art, along with C-19, BLM and CO2(?) all as parts of cultural marxist conspiracy. Thereby shitting on all those people lost to Covid, shitting on a country that currently struggles under criminal fascist aggression. Or am I being overly “politically correct”? I’m wondering why did you do it? It was not ‘either you’re with us or against us’ situation. Why not steer clear of it all? I don’t understand. What’s there to prove and to whom? |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Somewhat responding/commenting to CreaMD's comment on the prod page.
It's no wonder that these kind of movements are rising as energy prices are going up, and the whole world feels this urge to "downshift" as the effects of global warming gets more and more apparent. Everything feels a lot more unstable, and people try to hold on their communities.
We also live in a hugely different world than just 100 years ago. (hint: being able to send message to japan from finland in 6ms is something that _no species in earth history_ have been able to do before us now) - All the this creates feedback loops and situations that are completely unfamiliar to us. (suddenly you are not alone with your weird hobby in your local village, you can be part of a pan-european community instead!)
Also at the same time wealth has been accumulating to certain individuals who now have more power than kings did in the past. "Free markets will handle everything most efficiently" - atleast for some :)
And then there's also 15+ years of Russian hybrid influence. (This book by Finnish journalist Jessikka Aro was pretty mindblowing) - Most interesting to me was how Russian state has followed the old CCCP 60% truth 40% lies recipe, and in this especially selecting news that would show how everything is fucked up. These news were then distributed by local internet news sites, read a lot by "normal working people". The populist political parties have embraced these sites because the destabilization directly benefits them on the elections..
And also social media companies (trying to algorithmically match people to maximize engagement) have played part in this increased polarization. But there's also the fact how text-based communication is super-limited and even simple tongue-in-the-cheek jokes are being misinterpreted in completely wrong way. (it's very visible sometimes on IRC when people are getting f'ed up but then we have a party/meeting and it's alles gut again)
It doesn't help to call people idiots maybe. Even though the "information space" some folks have been in, has been poisoned systematically, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. Beliefs and world views are highly context-dependent. If you call people stupid, that just puts up their defenses and then nothing gets through.
Intolerance should not be tolerated, but let's try to be a bit more than just apes. (although maybe calling people stupid on the internet already is :D (if it stays on the internet)) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quote:And also social media companies (trying to algorithmically match people to maximize engagement) have played part in this increased polarization. But there's also the fact how text-based communication is super-limited and even simple tongue-in-the-cheek jokes are being misinterpreted in completely wrong way. (it's very visible sometimes on IRC when people are getting f'ed up but then we have a party/meeting and it's alles gut again)
It doesn't help to call people idiots maybe. Even though the "information space" some folks have been in, has been poisoned systematically, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. Beliefs and world views are highly context-dependent. If you call people stupid, that just puts up their defenses and then nothing gets through.
@mankeli: To say it in social media terms: +1 ;-) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting mankeliconspiracy theory Implying that it's untrue? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: Quoting mankeli
conspiracy theory
Implying that it's untrue?
What? The "cultural marxism"?
It's as true as the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion". |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Wait, this production is NOT meant as tongue-in-cheek satire and to be taken at face value? :-O |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: Wait, this production is NOT meant as tongue-in-cheek satire and to be taken at face value? :-O
Oh yes. The author is dead serious about it all. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3193 |
The whole compo is about making fun of jetan taking this matters too seriously. The others that prefer to live happily just laugh about it. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Wait, this production is NOT meant as tongue-in-cheek satire and to be taken at face value? :-O
Depends on whether or not you believe in "The Death of the Author" literary theory. :) |
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Mibri
Registered: Feb 2018
Posts: 214 |
Not sure that Barthes is especially relevant here.
mankeli's last post should probably be the last word on all of this. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Mankeli was (I think) commenting / adding his thoughts on top of my point about moral panic. I didn't notice any objection against free will to interpret the art, nor disagreeing with me in any point. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@CreaMD : I think what Mibri wanted to say when he said "Not sure that Barthes is especially relevant here", and I'm only guessing here, is that "The Death of the Author" is about not evaluating an art piece on the merit of the author's biography (past life) or persona. And that would work if jetan churned out a cartoon about a family of llamas or something. In other words - the politics of the author don't matter for evaluating his (non-political) art. But the art in question is itself political, the words "C-19, BLM, Ukrainian flag, and CO2" were explicitly inserted in the artpiece itself. They were not extracted from the artist's past rants. It would be, for example, like evaluating a Nazi propaganda poster's caricature of a Jew on its own merit, disregarding the "Juden raus" written on top. Or evaluating the portrait of Che on merit of his haircut, disregarding the five pointed star on his beret. So that's why Mibri wrote what he wrote. I think. Or at least this is my (free) interpretation. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: @CreaMD : I think what Mibri wanted to say when he said "Not sure that Barthes is especially relevant here", and I'm only guessing here, is that "The Death of the Author" is about not evaluating an art piece on the merit of the author's biography (past life) or persona. And that would work if jetan churned out a cartoon about a family of llamas or something. In other words - the politics of the author don't matter for evaluating his (non-political) art. But the art in question is itself political, the words "C-19, BLM, Ukrainian flag, and CO2" were explicitly inserted in the artpiece itself. They were not extracted from the artist's past rants. It would be, for example, like evaluating a Nazi propaganda poster's caricature of a Jew on its own merit, disregarding the "Juden raus" written on top. Or evaluating the portrait of Che on merit of his haircut, disregarding the five pointed star on his beret. So that's why Mibri wrote what he wrote. I think. Or at least this is my (free) interpretation.
I understand your point of view. I don't strictly say you can totally ignore the ideology behind Jetan's piece, but I choose not to be ofended and even try to figure it's meaning on my own, for my own amusement.
This way I can actually enjoy it much more than being offended by "what author really meant."
The aesthetic, symbolism, and messaging of Nazi propaganda posters, were meticulously crafted to evoke particular emotions and responses from the viewer. And while you are free to consider Jetan's art to be and attempt on propaganda, to me it seems more like attempt to vent his own emotions and fallacies. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: And while you are free to consider Jetan's art to be and attempt on propaganda
Nah, I see him as a victim. Now, he does become useful for further dissemination of propaganda he’s being fed, but a victim nonetheless.
Anyway, I talk too much, all I wanted to say is that I see how Barthes is irrelevant for this case. Because of explicit words used on the art itself. |
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Isildur
Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 275 |
@4gente Now I see... in your "case" you know EVEN better, you are smarter than Jetan, you are more intelligent, more tolerant (ah, sorry - not this). |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: after a few words of commentary I can figure out who is normal and who is indoctrinated. I never sympathize with the indoctrinated - I sympathize with their parents for not stepping up.
This is the very first thing jetan wrote directly to me, so please spare me the hypocrisy.
As you can see, he is the smart one who sees beyond my indoctrination.
It’s hilarious how the fiery proponents of abolition of “political correctness” are the ones to call “political correctness” for help. This is what you’re essentialy accusing me of, right? Of being politically incorrect?
It’s the old, tested ‘tolerate my intolerance’ trope. |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
Quoting 4gentENah, I see him as a victim. Now, he does become useful for further dissemination of propaganda he’s being fed, but a victim nonetheless.
The line between being a victim of indoctrination and becoming a culprit because of following doctrines is usually extremely thin. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3193 |
uh oh, from c64.ch
"jetan left Samar Productions"
infact he set his own membership to ex. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
Quote: Quote: Wait, this production is NOT meant as tongue-in-cheek satire and to be taken at face value? :-O
Oh yes. The author is dead serious about it all.
If ONLY it WAS by someone ELSE,
THEN I'd totally LMAO and <3 it
and even take the "partners" stuff for satire.
As it is, I DO appreciate and respect THAT people disliking rainbows delivered. And the upper 90% of the picture are alright FOR ME anyway, no matter who did it and with what message, though hammer and sickle can provoke some people as much or even more than swastikas - depending on their perspective/background. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote: As it is, I DO appreciate and respect THAT people disliking rainbows delivered.
No matter what, I was gonna say kudos to jetan for ‘sticking it’ to us all and making a demo about it instead of just whining in the forum, but I got distracted. It was one against many in this compo and that counts for something in my book. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1335 |
I'm personally anything but happy about Jetan leaving Samar. Sure, his views are almost 180 degrees opposite to mine and we clashed in discussions but he's definitely very talented and imaginative guy I wouldn't mind to cooperate with. Plus eventually, it all ended up with fun compo and couple of CSDb posts so not quite close to Gaza conflict. Well, too bad :-/ |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
The moraless preaching the moral high ground. Irony, can we like not.
C64 is supposed to be fun, and escapism. Leave the garbage at the door PLEASE. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 508 |
Every day you use the c64 a scener ragequits. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Is that directed at me Bitbreaker? Wow. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
what fungus said. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 508 |
Quote: Is that directed at me Bitbreaker? Wow.
I am sorry that you relate that to your person, that was not my intention. I wanted to refer to some scrolltext of a recent demo (and i should have made that clearer) that says:
Every day you use the c64 a pokemon dies.
I see strong opinions and attempts to define what belongs here and into demos and what not. I see drama that turns into ragequits. The daily life in demoscene, that is all i wanted to summarize. Another day, another cry.
However it shows, that the impact is stronger, the more serious we take our opinions and emphasize things and the less we can accept others being different, we narrow and limit ourselves by the fears we face. I am not into narrow minded things like ideologies, as this would have impact on my wide view, creativity and ideas. I understand, that on the other side control and simplicity gives a secure feeling for others. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:The daily life in demoscene, that is all i wanted to summarize. Another day, another cry.
This. Couldn't care less either when someone rage quits. Chances are he was just looking for an excuse anyway. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
Quoting chatGPZjust looking for an excuse anyway.
True for almost ALL rage quits
Why worry?
Sometimes they come back.
More often than not, i.e. |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Comments are closed so I just wanted to tell: Very good message in the grafix, unfortunately "political correctness" want to censor such artistic expression, provocative title is also nice trigger :) |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Quoting BitbreakerI am sorry that you relate that to your person, that was not my intention. I wanted to refer to some scrolltext of a recent demo (and i should have made that clearer) that says:
Every day you use the c64 a pokemon dies.
I see strong opinions and attempts to define what belongs here and into demos and what not. I see drama that turns into ragequits. The daily life in demoscene, that is all i wanted to summarize. Another day, another cry.
However it shows, that the impact is stronger, the more serious we take our opinions and emphasize things and the less we can accept others being different, we narrow and limit ourselves by the fears we face. I am not into narrow minded things like ideologies, as this would have impact on my wide view, creativity and ideas. I understand, that on the other side control and simplicity gives a secure feeling for others.
Oh, some people, people I don't even know seriously hate me because of my views on these matters. Also my paranoia gets the best of me sometimes. Remember there are a lot of primadonnas and mentally ill people in various vintage computing and vintage gaming scenes. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
Jetan's hypocrisy would be funny if it wasn't so sad ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Ah well. The music on this production is excellent. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Quoting FungusC64 is supposed to be fun, and escapism. Leave the garbage at the door PLEASE. This |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Fun and escapism for some, expressing an opinion for others.
Political, controversial, or otherwise questionable commentary - fair game.
If that is such a problem, no wonder that demos as an art form are so underdeveloped when it comes to actual art. |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172 |
Quoting Krill...
no wonder that demos as an art form are so underdeveloped when it comes to actual art.
I'm not sure I agree with that. Since the demoscene is quite small, what we are exposed to is everything that is released and finding something that one would consider "art" can be like looking for the needle in a haystack. With "normal" art we are mostly exposed to things that are curated in some way, meaning a lot of stuff has already been filtered out whether it be by art galleries, museums, record companies, publishers etc. For me, to be considered art, the piece has to have an emotional impact and I can think of several demos which have "hit me in the chest" so to speak. These are "art" as far as I'm concerned. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 323 |
After using the c64 for some three decades with few breaks in between, I've
seen a lot more far out stuff than this. With me, The message of something
is the last thing that I think about. My attention is drawn to how well it's
pixelled/coded/sounds etc.
I may or may not agree with their views in whatever production, or even
understand them at times, but if a person wishes to create art about something,
whatever that topic may be, I think they should do it. If it sparks conversation
like what's happening here then that's cool too.
What I've always loved about the various computing scenes is how everyone can
have wildly different views on many different things. For me it is like a window
into another world. I can appreciate the view or close the curtain.
"C64 is supposed to be fun, and escapism." - should be made part of the banner
graphics on top of the webpage :)
anyway.. thank you for attending my TED talk. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
Quoting RafComments are closed ...unfortunately "political correctness" want to censor ...
No reason for being paranoid about censorship, the comments are just the wrong place for discussing politics
right here in the forum(!) you are free to state your opinion like you did
Quote:Very good message
No matter if majority finds it homophobiac or stupid, opinions aren't censored just because they aren't mainstream. Just be careful not to explicitly discriminate against minorities (you might even be in conflict with EU or national law then and that might be a reason for mods to censor postings, close threads etc) and watch your wording <- by which I don't mean you gotta be 'woke', just don't be a dick and don't insult anyone |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quote: Quoting RafComments are closed ...unfortunately "political correctness" want to censor ...
No reason for being paranoid about censorship, the comments are just the wrong place for discussing politics
right here in the forum(!) you are free to state your opinion like you did
Quote:Very good message
No matter if majority finds it homophobiac or stupid, opinions aren't censored just because they aren't mainstream. Just be careful not to explicitly discriminate against minorities (you might even be in conflict with EU or national law then and that might be a reason for mods to censor postings, close threads etc) and watch your wording <- by which I don't mean you gotta be 'woke', just don't be a dick and don't insult anyone
I didn't actually consider why comments were closed albeit by "political correctness" I mean general direction (not CSDb censorship!) of today's world, where stuff nobody sane cares about, like < 2% minorities wanting "laws" (which doesn't mean someone is against anything/anyone!) which are *privileges* given for someone else FOR A REASON is considered to be something that you should fight for because of equity/equality bullshit and so on (yet there are many things ordinary ppl are affected every day by and should take care of).
Back in time leftists pretended fighting for poor, then when there were no more poor ppl (in Poland you can't tell nowadays on street someone is homeless by just looking at ppl) they moved toward minorities "laws" or BLM then what's next goal, laws for animal "lovers"?
if you feel insulted ASK QUESTIONS. |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496 |
Quoting Rafthey moved toward minorities "laws" or BLM then what's next goal, laws for animal "lovers"?
if you feel insulted ASK QUESTIONS.
You just put ‘bestiality’ in the same list as e.g. the black minority..
I have no more questions.
(Nirvana of civilisation == equal rights for all) |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quoting Sander
You just put ‘bestiality’ in the same list as e.g. the black minority..
I have question: what do you mean by 'bestiality' in this context? and why black minority? black minority != BLM.
"...we are not against minorities, we are against intrusive propaganda..." |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting Rafthey moved toward minorities "laws" or BLM then what's next goal, laws for animal "lovers"? You mentioned bestiality in all but name. And that is already not covered by laws, but the absence of prohibition in many jurisdictions including some EU states. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Quote: Quoting Rafthey moved toward minorities "laws" or BLM then what's next goal, laws for animal "lovers"?
if you feel insulted ASK QUESTIONS.
You just put ‘bestiality’ in the same list as e.g. the black minority..
I have no more questions.
(Nirvana of civilisation == equal rights for all)
There will never be equal rights for all as long as we have a hierarchical society based on wealth and power. Conversely we can't because not everyone has the same capacities for things.
Better to stop fighting about it and celebrate differences than lack of sameness or fitting in with someone else's idea of how people should be and making unrealistic expectations based on naivete. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting FungusThere will never be equal rights for all as long as we have a hierarchical society based on wealth and power. Conversely we can't because not everyone has the same capacities for things.
For someone who doesn't want to be involved in politics in his spare time this is quite a good analysis of what goes wrong :-) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Raf
Maybe you, considering yourself a free thinker, can answer yourself this:
How come you and most people here that agree with you and your views happen to be from Poland? Coincidence? Could it possibly be the case of you not being such free thinkers you think you are after all, but in fact regurgitating PiS propaganda? Did this ever occur to you? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Fungus
Quote:Better to stop fighting about it and celebrate differences than lack of sameness or fitting in with someone else's idea of how people should be and making unrealistic expectations based on naivete.
Basically, I couldn't agree more.
However, do tell, how do you "celebrate differences" with something like this:
"In honor of our great Veterans on Veteran's Day, we pledge to you that we will root out the Communists, Marxists, Fascists, and Radical Left Thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our Country, lie, steal, and cheat on Elections, and will do anything possible, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America, and the American Dream. The threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous, and grave, than the threat from within. Despite the hatred and anger of the Radical Left Lunatics who want to destroy our Country, we will MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!"
Insert the country/cause instead of America at will... |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
Quote:by "political correctness" I mean general direction (not CSDb censorship!) of today's world
Raf, I could follow your "Minorities - Check your privilege vs. Why Should Majority Adapt" line of argument.
And I also do have problems with 'wokeness' time and again, just normal as we all grew up totally differently from what is seen as p.c. today.
However, I beg you just consider, we _DO_ have sceners whose way of life probably is some way of LTBTQ and/or endure racism ...
... and then reflect how they might feel after reading
Quoting Rafthey moved toward minorities "laws" or BLM then what's next goal, laws for animal "lovers"?
You needn't like whatever movement and you're entitled to your own opinion. But mentioning minorities such as BLM and consenting human(!) adults' sexual orientation in the same sentence with actual goatf---ers, come on... ain't that an own goal, disqualifying whatever reasonable arguments you gave before? |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Quoting 4gentEHow come you and most people here that agree with you and your views happen to be from Poland?
Please don't attach nationality to this, as there is not one country that is homogenic as for the views. Observe our last elections that are kind of redemption ;)
By the way, I strongly urge people using terms like "wokeness" or "political correctness" to educate themselves a bit with the history of those terms, and understand how their meaning have been hijacked by the far right.
"Woke" is a term appropriated from Afroamericans and its original meaning was completely different, and "political correctness" have itself gone through at least 2 changes of the meaning since it's creation ;)
Many people complaining about political correctness are just assholes that don't want to face consequences of the bigoted vile things they are spewing. They just want to openly hate whoever, but quickly get triggered like fucking snowflakes if someone calls them fascists or stereotype their nationality or religion, for example. You are not brave, you are just dicks. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
And many people who are in favor of wokeness and political correctness use it as an excuse for censorship. You're not helping anyone, you're just tyrants. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting wacekBy the way, I strongly urge people using terms like "wokeness" or "political correctness" to educate themselves a bit with the history of those terms, and understand how their meaning have been hijacked by the far right.
"Woke" is a term appropriated from Afroamericans and its original meaning was completely different, and "political correctness" have itself gone through at least 2 changes of the meaning since it's creation ;)
This. <3
But unfortunalely also: I don't know anymore what people mean when they use those terms. They have become hollow phrases to me. Would be easier if people would stop using them.
As it is right now, I must admit that I think everyone using those terms is an idiot. So silly as it may seem. But I never came across someone who uses those terms and actually expresses good ideas instead of hollow phrases. It has become random background noise for me. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@wacek
I'm sorry if I was expressing myself unclearly.
Please understand that I'm not attaching nationality to this. At least not in any sort of prejudiced way.
I'm perfectly aware that strong, if not the strongest opposition to these weird views expressed by these people that (as I said before, direct quote) "happen to be from Poland" also come from Poland. DJ Gruby, You, Jammer, F7sus4 just to name a few. Also I hope You noted the difference between "happen to be" and "are". PiS is not Poland, and Poland is not PiS. I love Poland and Poles. I have nothing but love and respect for Poland and Poles. I absolutely despise PiS. Also, Poland voted on this recently, I've been watching the elections pretty closely, bcz I actually care for Poland, and I'm proud and happy with the results. Kudos Poland!
What I was trying to do is make Raf think about the fact that he shares views with the ruling PiS elite. Which happens/happened to be in power in Poland for too darn long. Make him wonder, wait, is this me, or is this propaganda talking? Sure as hell there's a shitload of Poles that don't repeat the PiS propaganda. Majority in fact.
P.S. A message to PiS: "WAS DOŠĆ" |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:But unfortunalely also: I don't know anymore what people mean when they use those terms. They have become hollow phrases to me. Would be easier if people would stop using them.
As it is right now, I must admit that I think everyone using those terms is an idiot. So silly as it may seem. But I never came across someone who uses those terms and actually expresses good ideas instead of hollow phrases. It has become random background noise for me.
That.
Similarly, this "other side" came up with the term "cancel culture". In recent years this term also became a way to detect bigoted bullshitters. Now, is the world going to adopt this poisoned term or reject it? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1409 |
re. the comments from Spider Jerusalem and Wacek, bravo, well said, etc etc. I think between them they've covered most of what I'd be saying if I had more spoons.
Listen to these two we all should <3 <3
(Also yes, I see what 4gentE was getting at now - and there is much to be said for taking the most charitable interpretation, even before adding "english is not everyone's first language" (and no shade there, everyone here speaks better English than I speak anything else :D)) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting spider-jI must admit that I think everyone using those terms is an idiot.
To correct myself a little on that matter, because it sounded quite harsh, I add the asterisk: idiot* (*in that regard).
Of course I have also some friends who like to complain about "political correctness" or "wokeness" or whatever heavily loaded term is cool now on social media.
But really: what is this all about? What do those terms really mean? To me - to you personally? Especially stuff like "BLM" in that release where we are commenting. Does anyone of us europeans here truly understand what "BLM" is all about? What role it plays in American Culture that we all just know from TV and the internet?
What has happened to us that mentioning the formula CO2 has attached some weird political and ideologically implications depending on which side of the social media bubble you're in?
Well yeah, utilitarism may not be a proper answer to everything, but why do people nowadays revert to those foolish "good" / "bad" schemes and morals like we were in the age of mythology?
And social media lets every one repeat hollow bullshit phrases that have no meaning at all attached to them besides all the blanks every individual consuming them fills in.
As a huge South Park fan that behaviour totally reminds me of "They're taking our jobs!" :-)
That all really puzzles me. And I can't get over it. Why do people think they must have opinions on stuff they don't know shit about? Why do they think it helps to put all things in a weird "good" / "bad" moral scheme? Especially when those moral schemes aren't even applied anymore as "general rules" but are down to the individual.
What do morals even mean when there is no common ground and everyone decides for him/herself what is good or bad?
That all just doesn't make sense for me at all.
Really: what is the point of "What Genders are you today? Our partners: Covid 19, BLM, Ukraine, CO2"? Everything mentioned here is such a deep topic on its own that you could fill hours and hours of discussion. But in what other way are those related than in some weird social media bubbles that decided that they "must be related". Because of... Yeah because of what? That you "like" or "dislike" it. Our algorithm has detected because you dislike BLM you might also dislike Ukraine?!? That's nuts.
Let us don't waste our time repeating hollow phrases that have zero meaning attached to them and instead make realtalk about ourselves, our feelings, our views on the world. Let's argue about real problems that we have to face in our lives and discuss ideas how to overcome them. Let us stop chaining some buzzwords together and make our self believe we made any relevant statement by chaining those together. No. We don't. Yeah, you may have "likes" and "dislikes" that only reflect how popular you are in your bubble. But it doesn't reflect if anyone actually really understands what your point is.
TLDR; sorry if I generalized to much when naming you "idiots" yesterday. WE are idiots! ;-) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Oh and while I'm on it. I can't take this "pick your side" bullshit anymore in complex and really sad developments in the world. I mean what is wrong with you people if you decide to be "Pro-Russia" or "Pro-Ukraine" – if you decide to be "Pro-Israel" or "Pro-Palestine"? That are no fucking soccer games that are going on. These are regions in the world in real crisis. In war. Where people suffer and die. People like you and me who just sit in their chair deciding what soccer team we like most. Russia destroys itself. All good people fled or will flee. Ukraine will face centuries of re-building when this war is over.
Whatever understandable reactions Isreals do: the conflict between Israel and Palestine is getting worse and worse nowadays. Everything that happens now will have an impact on future generations, because there are children born and raised in this fucked upped situation.
There are no easy answers. Everything is bad and you can't just swipe reality away like a Tinder profile you don't like. This isn't a game. There are real people suffering. There are real people in our western societies suffering because of gender disphoria. There are real people suffering in Russia because of the bullshit decisions of their politics. There are real people suffering in Ukraine, in Palestine, in Israel. Real people – individuals like you and me all over the world who just want the best for their lives and their kids.
And for some reason we as humanity haven't evolved far enough to put an end to all that suffering. But it won't help if we just ignore those facts and keep on telling us fairytales of easy anwers. There are no easy answers. History is full of blood and suffering and the only way we can progress is when we accept that we have to figure out ways of coexistence even with folks whose ideas, religions, way of life differ from ours.
And that is *not* an easy task. That is hard. And there will probably a lot of more suffering on the way. And we – as the most privileged people on this earth – where we have fucking endless water which is the most precious thing in life flowing in our homes – have to accept that we as individuals are as helpless as the people who really suffer. Because we depend on those 1% who rule the world and we could do two things: kill them and take the fucking planet back or at least – because after all they are part of our culture – take the "slow" route and hope that they will come to their senses and act in a "good" way.
I must admit: I'm more on the killing team. Even if we would only kill Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos and distribute their capital evenly between the rest of the world, many* problems would be solved :-)
*note I said "many" – not all, I stand to my word: there are no "easy" answers. But killing the 1% would be a good starting point instead of argueing about bullshit. Imho XD |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
thanks, Spidey, for pointing out this frequent futility - bordering on inappropriateness - of taking sides. this will not reduce human suffering, rather the contrary.
ps. painful point about Polish bigotry, but won't you please give us more time to understand the principles of modern civilization, we've only just joined. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting spider-jBut killing the 1% would be a good starting point instead of argueing about bullshit. Uhm... wat =) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting KrillQuoting spider-jBut killing the 1% would be a good starting point instead of argueing about bullshit. Uhm... wat =)
Okay, it was late. I'm not dogmatic about it. If you have better suggestions: go for it :-)
EDIT: Knorkator hade made a more civil approach that I also like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kh5CJ90KAU
That would also be an option :-) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2244 |
Cultural Marxism is getting strong in this one X_D
*whistles WiZo songs*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvp21VSR6Ro |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
Quoting spider-jthe only way we can progress is when we accept that we have to figure out ways of coexistence even with folks whose ideas, religions, way of life differ from ours. And that is *not* an easy task.
What I miss in this free flow of thoughts is the rejection of the idea (or rather the lack of it) that perhaps there are "tasks" impossible to accomplish and the conflict might be inevitable not despite coexistence, but because of it. Especially when doctrines actively tell their followers to hate act against the unindoctrinated. While we, as a society, may evolve intellectually and culturally, dogmas are set in stone.
This is the paradox described by a social philosopher, Karl Popper. In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance (which effectively reduces tolerance to a doctrine). In a truly free society, the society will be experiencing intolerance. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I think I perhaps wrote this before, but I'll repeat it anyway.
Antifascism is not an ideology but a civilizational achievement. This lesson came with a hefty pricetag. Our parents know this well. |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117 |
Every set of ideas and ideals is, by definition, an ideology. However, not all ideologies are based on ethical principles. |
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Bacchus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 156 |
Disregarding the politics here, I must say the crafting of the picture is simply great.
/Bacchus |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@F7sus4
Let me explain what I mean. The wheel, once invented and perfected is not an ideology. Yes, there is a whole set of ideas behind the invention of a wheel, so by the short definition you gave, a wheel could be defined as ideology. But it’s not. It’s a civilizational achievement.
When fascism was new, civilization didn’t know what to make of it. It tried to be tolerant. This resulted among all else in Holocaust, WWII and huge loss of human life. Both modern and opposing ‘ideologies’ at the time - freemarket capitalism and soviet socialism saw in real time with their own eyes what fascism leads to. So they forged an antifascist alliance and rooted out fascism at great cost. Ergo, antifascism is a civilizational achievement. It’s not a mere set of abstract ideas, it’s both a tested solution, tested in physical world, and a document, a warning for the future. It says, look, it’s all documented, it’s all “been there done that”, fascism is not the way and should be avoided at all cost, by use of force if necessary. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Quoting CruzerAnd many people who are in favor of wokeness and political correctness use it as an excuse for censorship. You're not helping anyone, you're just tyrants.
Any specific reason why you are calling me a tyrant here? Dude, I don't think we have ever met and talked in person. You are proving my point for me.
By the way, living in a post-socialist country I know a thing or two about censorship - do you? How many people went to jail in Denmark in the last century for expressing dissent?
People from countries like USA or most Western Europe that are talking about things like communism, socialism, "regimes", tyranny etc should kindly shut the fuck up sometimes. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
this is the first time I think a topic should be closed. make demos not war :( |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
And this is the first time in a long time when I agree with Oswald ;) |
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Isildur
Registered: Sep 2006
Posts: 275 |
Good news :)
Jetan is back on The Scene (as a Samar member) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting IsildurGood news :)
Jetan is back on The Scene (as a Samar member)
Nice. Watching your BCC release right now on stream. I hope you guys convinced him to losen his tinfoil hat belts. *scnr* ;-) |
