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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Release id #248202 : AIrrested
I'll help the moderators: Drama posts go here: |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
what , you are not a moderator anylonger? how come? |
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Monte Carlos
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 359 |
The drama is, I'm AIrrested and nobody dares to take me out, again. |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 93 |
The drama is, someone wanted to make CSDb lose their shit and succeeded. |
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El Jefe
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 81 |
Ye, too bad Critikill went THAT far! |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Quote: what , you are not a moderator anylonger? how come?
Drama! Just joking. Got a baby girl in September. Need to focus on family, and stepped down. :) |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Yeah, CK broke CSDb. Now that’s a true piece of performative art. But as it turns out it’s not that hard. All you need to do is set the “freedom fighters” into motion. They will shut those pesky artists’ mouths. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: Drama! Just joking. Got a baby girl in September. Need to focus on family, and stepped down. :)
oh, congratulation! |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Agent...
The same stuff happens in music all the time when new tech comes. It's just dumb to complain about the tech itself, complain about the individuals who misuse the tech.
In the 70's music was gonna die because of synths, then it was going to die because of protools, then autotune, and beat detective and a bunch of other tech that keeps coming like it or not. Yes sometimes it is abused or becomes trendy, but its also powerful and useful in the right hands.
You can use and train AI on your OWN ART, with your OWN VOICE, you're all being technophobes. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Fungus:
We’re slightly offtopic and I know it.
I hear you. All that is cool. It’s not that I think AI will destroy music or artwork. It will instead destroy the livelihoods of people doing creative work. It will exchange those people with less talented people. And this is not misuse of this technology, it’s its main purpose. To drive the price of creative work down. To serve executives to get a better stranglehold on the creatives. You mentioned synths. Synths got used by musicians, not executives and data-analysts. I’m not merely speculating of this destruction, 2 of my proffessional acquaintances already fell victims to this. In fact, one of them is also a friend. The first one lost a newspaper caricature gig to a guy that uses AI. The guy he lost the gig to is a coder and data analyst who never held a pencil or charcoal in his hand. The other one walked over to the dark side, and landed a gig with the help of AI by offering the client 100+ crappy solutions, beating an honest guy who offered 3 pretty great handcrafted ones. So, we can philosophize from high above all we want, but people are already suffering from this sh*t. I see no reason to let it wreak havoc in our money free little community. |
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Higgie
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 127 |
@4gentE @Fungus
I have also already experienced effects on people I know. :(
And I don't even want to bring up the question of the impact of generative AI use on our environment.
(all doubters of man-made climate change should please shut up!) |
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wil
Registered: Jan 2019
Posts: 62 |
Congratulations, Hedning, enjoy the time! |
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wil
Registered: Jan 2019
Posts: 62 |
Quote: @Fungus:
We’re slightly offtopic and I know it.
I hear you. All that is cool. It’s not that I think AI will destroy music or artwork. It will instead destroy the livelihoods of people doing creative work. It will exchange those people with less talented people. And this is not misuse of this technology, it’s its main purpose. To drive the price of creative work down. To serve executives to get a better stranglehold on the creatives. You mentioned synths. Synths got used by musicians, not executives and data-analysts. I’m not merely speculating of this destruction, 2 of my proffessional acquaintances already fell victims to this. In fact, one of them is also a friend. The first one lost a newspaper caricature gig to a guy that uses AI. The guy he lost the gig to is a coder and data analyst who never held a pencil or charcoal in his hand. The other one walked over to the dark side, and landed a gig with the help of AI by offering the client 100+ crappy solutions, beating an honest guy who offered 3 pretty great handcrafted ones. So, we can philosophize from high above all we want, but people are already suffering from this sh*t. I see no reason to let it wreak havoc in our money free little community.
I don't doubt that AI will have a disruptive effect on many creative (and probably almost all other) jobs. You examples show that this is already happening and I sympathize with your friends facing this challenge.
But I think that the development and use of AI cannot be stopped, regardless of our efforts on calling out suspected AI art or protecting our servers from being scraped. History has shown that technological advancement, once created finds its way.
That said, and trying hard to not sound too neoliberal here, I think that such disruptions also bring chances and opportunities coming up, but we have to adapt.
Also AI does not care what we think about it. But an unfortunate artist, who is accused of doing something wrong will have a hard time independent of the fact if the cause is real or not. So let's be nice to our artists (and everyone else). |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
I’ve seen AI destroy almost an entire industry - concept art. I say “almost” because, for now, they’re finding alternate work. But these guys made concept work for big movies (some of the biggest, including Marvel’s movies). Now? Others working on the movies, such as the creative director, can simply play around with Midjourney until they get a look that’s right for the scene they want to do. And for now these concepts are passed to 3D artists to sculpt out. Later on, the AI will take that part too of course.
I saw a movie director say that he expected one day he wouldn’t need anyone else at all to make a movie, he could do it all himself. The shock for him will be this: when that day comes, movies as we know them are dead: people at home will simply ask the AI to make a movie that they’ll like.
I don’t relish this, I think it’s disastrous. But good for such as Elon Musk perhaps - he can sit with his android girlfriend and watch whatever weird porn he can dream up a prompt for. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 464 |
people losing jobs is altogether a separate problem.
we are not a commercial industry, we can afford to see it from a purely philosophical (if not pleasantly irrational - just like art is) standpoint. but some of you mix the two up :) |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 464 |
i'd offer you my two grosze, but i'm not in the visual arts world. musicians have it slightly better, working in abstract instead of representative. so the parallels would be inaccurate. |
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CopAss
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 21 |
@raistlin: It also affected photographers, stock photography "photographers" practically disappeared. Models don't have to pay, nor do photographers. AI does it completely for free.
AI is also increasingly used in print advertising, and smaller companies have also made the switch. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Quote:we are not a commercial industry
Exactly. Which is why we don't need to mess with this technology that is precisely aiming to circumvent creatives altogether, and leave only executives / producers with toys. |
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
Sure it's going to cost people their jobs, but you can't stop that. Companies want profit and care nothing of their workers, bottom line.
Ask former Disney animators when everything started to be shipped off to Asian studios, almost all of them lost their jobs, and had to change careers.
Now people are losing their jobs to robots too, is any of that going to stop? Nope, Robots don't need pensions, health care or sleep.
None of this would be, if it wasn't a society based purely on exploitation and profits. It's never been any different, these trends have been since the industrial revolution, the turn around is just faster now as technology progresses at a faster rate. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
I understand. What marks the spot where I draw the line is the fact that prompt-to-image tools change the very essence of visual creative work. I see unbroken line (yes sometimes jagged, but a line) from the first cave paintings all the way to Koalapainter, Deluxe Paint, onto Blender or Photoshop.
I mean, it's one thing to force the artist to use a graphic tablet or a mouse instead of chalk and coal. But forcing him to verbally prompt the machine for the result (the machine that has been fed his own past artistic output and the artistic output of everyone everywhere since the dawn of time), to circumvent his eye-brain-hand talent and training if he wants to keep his/her job is something fundamentally new and different from everything that came before.
I'm aware that nobody can stop this. I was hoping we could perhaps keep it outside of this tightly knit, almost incestuous group inside which there is zero economic interest. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 508 |
I try to light up another perspective on this topic: If people want to achieve goals with minimum effort and consider cheating a viable way, they will cheat. Even rules like workstatges will not stop this, as then just workstages are faked, and if tools can detect AI, then workstages are faked even further. Funny enough there should be some breakeven-point where cheating costs even more skills and energy than simply drawing your own stuff :-D The reason for putting so much energy into something, has reasons and speak for a high need that is worth doing so.
So it is about profit (and as a consequence power one gains), the personal profit, be it by money, by fame, by attention. This is pretty much selfish and this usually comes with a deficit in empathy and a lack of fairness if it is achieved by all means. I can fully understand, that this is upsetting, and i understand the urge to bring those people to fall.
There is maybe not much one can do to stop such people (or inventions), but we can distance ourself from that by doing it different, by not selling our soul, our values, being transparent, being an idol for others and by that not ending up as emotionally wrecked. If we start fighting, we start war, and that always means to loose, we loose ourselves in pointless discussions, loose our dignity and inb the end feed those who need it with attention, it does not always matter if it is positive or negative.
If people want to give least effort for maximum profit, those people want to cheat, to lie, to cause drama, it is their own shortcomings that is responsible for that. Maybe feeling sorry for what they do is a better option? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@Bitbreaker:
At first, I had this idea that if people communicate, this will get settled. I wasn't aware that this non-material economic, this fame capital balance you pointed out was so important to some people that they will succumb to cheating their own friends. I thought, we don't have to "forbid" anything because the artists themselves will sport this "chivalry", this solidarity. After all, it's in their best interest in the long run. But I guess, with the advancement of AI, the allure grew to a point where everyone suddenly felt he/she can/should portray him/herself as an artist.
So with that naivety out of the window, I can fully endorse your words.
However, if and when this situation wears out the old gfx masters, if and when compos find themselves bare of great gfx artwork and AI prevails, it will be to late to act. Just a thing to bear in mind. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
So the "Hiking Home For Christmas" thread was closed due to everything going off-topic .. and now the conversation continues here.
I'm not seeing things moving forward and I'm not even sure what the argument is any more ..
Pal's comments align with what I said early on: while workstages are nice, and indeed needed for many compos, you can't really enforce them. And while we can suspect AI in some cases, or wiring, etc.. there's rarely hard proof.
So while recommendations for what we'd like people to do, in an ideal world, can be made... we also have to accept that not everyone likes to work that way. And I fully understand Pal on that. As a coder, I don't want to show people the often chaotic way that I make something..! |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
" As a coder, I don't want to show people the often chaotic way that I make something..!"
hehe. i for myself can also confirm this. dont want to see groepaz puking again because of my code :D |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2243 |
The only new aspects mentioned here were
Quoting '4gentE'destroy the livelihoods of people doing creative work
or in other words
Quoting 'Hate Bush'
people losing jobs is altogether a separate problem.
This might be the true explanation why certain people keep being so obsessed with the topic, a few of them might do gfx/design for a living and thus, have a very critical attitude towards AI as they fear being replaced.
If that's true or not, well, who can tell...
At the bottom of every innovation there's "Video killed the radio star" whining...
Quoting RaistlinSo the "Hiking Home For Christmas" thread was closed due to everything going off-topic .. and now the conversation continues here.
I'm not seeing things moving forward and I'm not even sure what the argument is any more ..
Me neither.
Everyone tried to make their points on the still hot topic of AI and C=64 gfx.
How about giving mods some rest and continuing AI debating in 2025? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Demomaker. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
" At the bottom of every innovation there's "Video killed the radio star" whining..."
computer killed the typewriter industry :( |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
I BET PEOPLE IN 2025 WON'T EVEN WRITE THEIR OWN LOADERS AND CRUNCHERS ANYMORE!! AND THEY WILL USE PHOTOSHOPS AND WACOMS FOR PIXELLING |
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CopAss
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 21 |
Quoting mankeliI BET PEOPLE IN 2025 WON'T EVEN WRITE THEIR OWN LOADERS AND CRUNCHERS ANYMORE!! AND THEY WILL USE PHOTOSHOPS AND WACOMS FOR PIXELLING
which is usually written in the credits, what they use...
the problem is with those who deny everything, citing their "talent". |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: Quoting mankeliI BET PEOPLE IN 2025 WON'T EVEN WRITE THEIR OWN LOADERS AND CRUNCHERS ANYMORE!! AND THEY WILL USE PHOTOSHOPS AND WACOMS FOR PIXELLING
which is usually written in the credits, what they use...
the problem is with those who deny everything, citing their "talent".
never gave credits to the guy who made the crunchers :( |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Yeah, loader author seems to be often credited. At one prod I tried to credit also music routine author, and the petscii editor author. But should I then credit the cruncher author, the assembler author (well that's easy because it's me :), or the text editor author? (some people even write those themselves - I have not yet) - VICE has been also pretty instrumental in making demo productions.
I'm of course exaggerating. I guess most of the authors just accept that they make the tools and people just accept that the tools are used and not credited. IDK. IDK also why I even try to quantize this. Somehow all this just reminds me of the "Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance" which is a book of >400 words about the philosophy of "Quality".
Maybe in the end people just feel it's unfair that people are having different ways of working. Should I write my own Depth of Field shader, or do I accept that someone just uses the one written by Tim Sweeney? |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 336 |
We are all standing on the shoulders of Giants |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 336 |
btw. Should i make workstage generator to go with my converter to have complete package? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
@mankeli:
All those credits you mentioned; assembler, text editor, plus there’s gotta be an OS underneath, all those things rely on FONTS to convey information. You also need to credit the typographer. ;-) |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 146 |
Please don't. It's good that people post workstages, so that they can be used later to build even more advanced AI that actually pixels the images like a human would. And it's not good idea to use artificial training data ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting mankeliYeah, loader author seems to be often credited. At one prod I tried to credit also music routine author, and the petscii editor author. But should I then credit the cruncher author, the assembler author (well that's easy because it's me :), or the text editor author? (some people even write those themselves - I have not yet) - VICE has been also pretty instrumental in making demo productions. As for loader credits, that's part of the deal in my case - as in license agreement based on a 3-clause BSD-style thing.
(The fine print demands no prominent display, just a mention in a note on disk, a scroller, or somewhere in the upcrawl or so.)
But yes, the general question remains on whom to credit or not. If not otherwise specified, probably just up to the user's ideas about these things. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
OK... it has come down to this: I shout out to every coder on the c64... Are you totally OK with the fact that you have to record everything live on video to make your part real and yours? Is that ok? That you have to record every step you do of the coding to make sure that some people on here will think it is ok to release? I am just asking for a friend. |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 368 |
BTT:
https://c64gfx.com/compo/2677 ;P |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
For coders again, I am not talking about final code release public after doe ready, I am talking about every step in the process to get there all the way frm init til final code done... is that ok for you all? really? ...is it? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
PAL: Last time i checked, it wasn't (by far) primarily coders who demanded such things. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
Krill: I know... but this had to be asked... is this the scene? is this what it is a abut? Coders must say something becaue or else these lunatics will just ramble on. |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: OK... it has come down to this: I shout out to every coder on the c64... Are you totally OK with the fact that you have to record everything live on video to make your part real and yours? Is that ok? That you have to record every step you do of the coding to make sure that some people on here will think it is ok to release? I am just asking for a friend.
tell your friend to fuck off =)
in love, peacemaker |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Don’t worry coders, this was was a cringe attempt at humour. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: For coders again, I am not talking about final code release public after doe ready, I am talking about every step in the process to get there all the way frm init til final code done... is that ok for you all? really? ...is it?
perfectly okay, including my wanking to porn sessions when I get bored, but only if the public doesnt skip a single second. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
hehe... but really... is that ok? that you should record every coding step you do... it is actually a serious question. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: hehe... but really... is that ok? that you should record every coding step you do... it is actually a serious question.
no need to consider what these two want. they have nothing over anyone, the scene is free. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101 |
Quoting PALhehe... but really... is that ok? that you should record every coding step you do... it is actually a serious question. many coders open source their code these days. I'm not talking about just simple things, but also compo winners.
check here: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=11&topicid=162980&showallposts=1 |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: Quoting PALhehe... but really... is that ok? that you should record every coding step you do... it is actually a serious question. many coders open source their code these days. I'm not talking about just simple things, but also compo winners.
check here: https://csdb.dk/forums/?roomid=11&topicid=162980&showallposts=1
but maybe they did not code the stuff themselves? maybe, some deep state coder is beyond this? :o |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
Again... I was not talking about final code released, I was talking about every step in the process livercorded to get a cool new part released and you have to document every thing, everything all long, even your wrong doings, like a live feed to make you be a proper and true owner of that part... lets say you had a routine that you wanted to use... so yuo can not paste that in what so ever... you have to show it live... it is geting total insane... |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
am not crazy... a lot of my work have vanished because of AI... I can not get them real super works anymore that I have gotten in the last 30 years... I am one of them absolutely best there ever was in llustrations and so on here in norway in my mind hehe. but really I have bn that... sI know very much about what is going down and yes, I have lost 50% of what I usually did before - or even more... but that i have to record all I do for my fun hobby is total insane...
www.flottaltsaa.no |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Not only record. But also slap commercial links to my business web at my fun hobby forum. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
?
I think you are very out of the normal, but that is ok in here, in our scene... I wish for all the best for you in your life and I am sorry we could never get to a point where you saw me... or I saw you... Take care mate, create some cool stuffs soon... lets b jolly. All my love. PAL |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
PS: I have been on a party in my own company for the last 30+ years... maybe you have been in a corporate hell? I do not know... no matter what... I want you to prosper and have fun... I will create some more pixels beside my professional work. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
@4gentE : do you really notice at all that people want to be polite to you but that you turd on everyones face all the time? Do you smell that from yourself at all`Well... you are actually quite horrible to be total honest. |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 229 |
People should go to bed when they have had their first evening drink, beer or whatever. And sleep it off. This thread just show old, sad men, which drink too much,
so their alternatives, like Norwegian author Faldbakken creates, just make their alteregos go alive.
I say, go to sleep in the evening and do art just like you would do any other day, without A.I. and without outbreaks about big brother television broadcast angst. |
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Bitbreaker
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 508 |
Quote: Again... I was not talking about final code released, I was talking about every step in the process livercorded to get a cool new part released and you have to document every thing, everything all long, even your wrong doings, like a live feed to make you be a proper and true owner of that part... lets say you had a routine that you wanted to use... so yuo can not paste that in what so ever... you have to show it live... it is geting total insane...
Here's my view on this:
Nowadays version control is used all over by coders, so in fact easy to trace back any changes. Not primarily for transparency reasons, but for the ability to fall back to older version upon failure or bugs. I do not understand all that fuzz and overreaction.
When i pixel, i save pretty often and do so with different filenames upon each save to be able to fall back to a previous state if i am not satisfied with the new changes. So it is versioning the cheap way to have some control about past steps. Providing a kind of timelapse is an easy thing from there on, yet not my primary goal, but i do it as a gift on top, just because i can. I am open about what i do, the route is the goal ;-)
Needless to say, that such things are done voluntarily. Thus again, no overreaction needed. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285 |
Dear Pal. Yes, I poked you. "Turding" was not my intention. My intention was to try slowing down the degeneration of yet another forum thread into "Pal is flabbergasted by realization that some people screen-record their creative process" monologue. I realize now my tactic was dumb and it sort of backfired. I apologize if I offended you. I'm also very sorry to hear that your business took a 50% hit due to AI. That's gotta be hard. At the same time I'm also happy to see you handle it so well. Which cannot be said about your realization that some people dare record their screens while producing artwork. Thereby freely sharing their creative processes and techniques. I can't pretend I understand why this troubles you so deeply, but it saddens me nevertheless. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2243 |
Quoting PAL... Are you totally OK with the fact that you have to record everything live on video to make your part real and yours? ...
Coders are normally far less dramatic than other scene "professions", maybe because some have their history as cracker. (Violating copyright and then being dramatic about (not) crediting which cruncher you used, LOL... some people have really funny ideas)
Quoting JoePeople should go to bed when they have had their first evening drink, beer or whatever. ...
I guess then we'd have much of a silent night here, then :D However, I generally agree about 'don't drink and post' message here, don't overdo substances, after half a crate of beer or a bottle of vodka, or if you are too drunk to pixel, it might be recommendable not to go to any forums.
Quoting Bitbreaker... I do not understand all that fuzz and overreaction.
..., no overreaction needed.
THIS...
I was about to close this one yesterday, then gave this one a last chance for getting ontopic again.
Result: More offtopic blahblah and flaming, already a bit on the nasty side...
-> CLOSED to prevent anyone from overdoing substances and finding themselves banned for X-Mas when sobered up.
Ho-ho-ho...
Your friendly Cleaning Lady & Kindergarten-Cop |
