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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Event id #2655 : 8K Intro Competition 2017
Inspired in part by Didi's past intro creation competitions (many thankings for those!),
have a four week lightning competition to help you survive the holiday season
- single file one part intro (fade in/out acceptable)
- has a logo+changing text+music
- file size of at most 8192 bytes, including load address (so, 8190 bytes of data).
- no more than 5 seconds decrunch/precalculation time.
- once page is running, exits within 5 seconds of pressing space (should be obviously fading out)
- don't trash any RAM from $2800 to $cfff inclusive (unless you restore it on exit).
- entries uploaded to csdb as runnable .prg, optionally embedded in .d64,
- max three per participant, withdrawals allowed, older entries will be displaced if you've too many.
- competition start: 8th December
- entry deadline: 5th of January, 14:00 (2pm) UTC
- voting deadline: 12th of January, 14:00 (2pm) UTC
- entries will be ranked by CSDb rating, including private votes.
- entries with the same weighted average will be ranked by their percentages of 10s, 9s, etc.
No prizes, just fame :)
Thankings to Jeanette, Krill, Groepaz, and various ICC2016 commenters for helping me to crystallise plans.
Any errors in judgement all my own - I've ignored a lot of good advice :D
Questions and discussion below. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
\o/ |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
So can we use $d000-$fff9 for generated speedcode or gfx buffers? (Accessed from $0801-$27ff) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Quote: So can we use $d000-$fff9 for generated speedcode or gfx buffers? (Accessed from $0801-$27ff)
Yes! |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
Wonderful! 8k is inally a halfway decent limit! \o/ |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 479 |
Have fun with it. Maybe better not to have the same rules every year. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
Didi, don't be sulky, compete :) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
8KB is very decent limit, big enough for some half-decent graphics, a decent tune and some code that should rise above the simple swinging logo + 1x1 scroller. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote:- don't trash any RAM from $2800 to $cfff inclusive (unless you restore it on exit).
This means in runtime? Usually depackers fill the holes ($2800-$cfff in this case) with zeros. I've been trying the Exomizer level option (which should leave the non-used memory untouched when depacking $0400-$27ff and $d000-$ffff), but can't get the depacker source to work, yet. It'd save some time if I can just use the sfx option. Then you can pretend there's game bytes at $2800-$cfff. :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Quoting HeinThis means in runtime?
Yes. I was assuming game gets depacked from that area after the intro exits, possibly getting moved down to $0801-$b000 first depending on the packer requirements.
Quote: Usually depackers fill the holes ($2800-$cfff in this case) with zeros.
Interesting. Perhaps I should be louder about nucrunch offering a stream containing multiple disjoint areas... Or is that what the Exomizer level option is?
Quote:
Then you can pretend there's game bytes at $2800-$cfff. :)
I'd prefer to leave the rule as it stands; while I considered adding a specific payload, I didn't want any of the entries taking advantage of whatever the contents were (which would in turn have tied those entries to only being able to intro that particular file). |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Exomizer level option should indeed leave the non-packed areas untouched when depacking.
So my question is still open: Would it be allowed to just pack the whole memory with Exomizer or Pucrunch, even if after depacking the area $2800-$cfff is filled with zeros (which in a real life scenario would be the packed game anyway) and those zeros are left untouched when the intro is running?
If not allowed, still fine, it just shifts my focus a bit towards a field I'm not so much interested in. And there's hardly any gain or loss concerning the 8kb restriction, so it feels a bit of a waste of effort to me. In the end I might know about packers and depackers, tho. Good for picking up girls. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
i told you that you should just supply a file that has to be linked :=) allowing what Hein is proposing is watering the intend of the rules IMHO - since it might no more work when the gap isnt just zeros (ie it may result in a file > 202 blocks) |
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Trasher
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8 |
Hi,
great idea! Let's see if I manage to participate..
Being an old cracker I don't quite understand the idea of the rules though. The limit of 8k makes sense to some degree, but not the really the rest (like the $d000 limit). Here's my point of view of different crack intros, some different types and ways of using them:
1. packed game, crunched intro+game
- game is packed (RLE packed) and placed behind the unpacked intro. Packed game must fit after the unpacked intro, eg. from $2800-$ffff. The intro runs and when done (space) most often relocates the packed game to $0801 and launches the unpacker.
- the whole blob, unpacked intro+packed game, is crunched.
- The resulting file must fit between $0801-$d000 to be able to be loaded by a standard kernal loader (201 blocks).
2. packed and crunched game, completely unpacked intro (since it is so small)
- in this case we don't care about packing the intro at all, it is just so small that it doesn't make a difference.
- the end result of unpacked intro+packed and crunched game must fit $0801-$d000 same as in #1
I guess there are variants of the above, that even I have used when required.. Feel free to add and comment.
IMHO the most simple rule is that when the intro exits, a certain area after has to be just as it was before the intro started. Say the area $2800-$ffff (I think most of my entries had about that size, maybe up-to $3000 sometimes). That would allow for relocating stuff if somebody for whatever reason wants a bitmap at $4000. Maybe the start of that untouchable region should be increased to allow for some more fancy stuff, that's a matter of discussion.
To have the crunched size as a limit doesn't make much sense to me.. Though that could be listed/seen as part of the compo - shorter crunched intro is definately better if you wanna get high up in the gamers guide charts! ;) so I would give such an intro higher points.
Just a quick point of view from a cracker.. There are probably others.
Cheers,
Trasher |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129 |
Hi.
Hmm should he intro be in one 8k block while running?
Like the old rules on 16k block, but now 8k??? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Groepaz: as I mentioned in my initial post - I ignored a lot of good advice :-)
Trasher: thank you so much for the history lesson! I was somewhat surprised at the implication of Hein's post, it was starting to sound like the game was often doublecrunched. The historical separation of packing from crunching is something I still find somewhat bemusing.
I guess I was assuming something closer to scenario #2. The rules envision the area from 0x2800 to 0xcfff containing a packed+crunched game.
The intent of the "don't trash" rule is indeed that a certain area has to be just as it was before the intro started; I've just gone for $2800-$cfff to allow people the option of decrunching graphics or speedcode into the $d000-$ffff area.
The crunched size limit was just to ensure it would fits as a prefix for any file under (a fairly arbitrary) 42KB, and still be loadable with kernal load. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Quote: Hi.
Hmm should he intro be in one 8k block while running?
Like the old rules on 16k block, but now 8k???
The new rules allow you to also allow unrestricted use of $0000-$0800 and $d000-$ffff.
The only runtime restriction is that if you use any of $2800-$cfff you must restore it at exit.
For example, if you want to use all of the area from $0000 to $3fff, while the intro is running, you could copy the ram from $2800 to $3fff to the area from $e000-$f7ff, and copy it back on exit. |
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Trasher
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8 |
ChristopherJam: In the case of #2, I think of intros that are a 2-3 blocks long.. or say 10 blocks max.. Including scrolltext. Just as a reference to your crunched 32+ blocks.
The separation of packing/crunching is still valid unless you can separately crunch both intro and game, without the decrunch of the intro destroying the game. I guess this is what you somehow discuss.. Obviously back then it was also a matter of runtime, crunching might take 12-15 hours.
But hey - it's your compo and idea, so do it as you like! I just feel it's not crack-intro style - at all.. And maybe that's not the point. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Quoting TrasherChristopherJam: In the case of #2, I think of intros that are a 2-3 blocks long.. or say 10 blocks max.. Including scrolltext. Just as a reference to your crunched 32+ blocks.
Interesting. I was going for something a bit tighter than last year's 64 blocks, but thought that four weeks might be a bit short a time period to be asking for 16 blocks or smaller.
Quote:The separation of packing/crunching is still valid unless you can separately crunch both intro and game, without the decrunch of the intro destroying the game. I guess this is what you somehow discuss.. Obviously back then it was also a matter of runtime, crunching might take 12-15 hours.
Ah yes - I was thinking the decrunch time between intro and game might be a factor, but I hadn't considered the logistics of running two seperate crunches overnight, one for the intro the other for the game. Challenging times back then!
The idea behind this competition is indeed to decrunch the intro in such a way as to leave the game undisturbed. Perhaps it would help to imagine that the game has decrunched to $2800-$cfff, but has yet to be unpacked...
Quote:But hey - it's your compo and idea, so do it as you like! I just feel it's not crack-intro style - at all.. And maybe that's not the point.
Again, I genuinely appreciate the historical context. While I'll keep the rules for this weird hybrid as they stand, it's definitely something to be kept in mind for a future event. |
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Trasher
Registered: Sep 2009
Posts: 8 |
All good CJ! Would be interesting to hear other crackers comments to this. |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
These rules are a nightmare. Probably not gonna compete. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Cruzer, I'm curious - would you have been interested if the rules were a straight "don't use any RAM above $2800 aside from interrupt vectors and colour RAM"? |
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Tim
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 467 |
hmm,
imho just define max size of code AND sid.
for example not every coder will have access to a musician that can do wonders in tiny memory size due to not having a capable player made for this task. (and I say that with the utmost respect to hero's like GRG or Jeff that do this beautifully) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
wat |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Tim, there are over 30,000 SIDs in HSVC under 4k in size (more than half of them!) That still leaves you with 4k for code and data.
Haven't checked play location but I remember $1000/$1003 being common too; any of those wouldn't even need relocating.
(obviously original music preferred, but I remember reuse being the rule rather than the exception back in the day) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
The rules do allow us to use a wopping 22k. With the old rules (16k) I was having more trouble fitting the provided gfx. Double buffering is also easier now.
Maybe Cruzer had a beautiful one-bank-carpet of interwoven code, music and graphics. |
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Dr.Science
Registered: Oct 2011
Posts: 39 |
Ok, just to make sure even I understand it. If I have my music at $1000-$1a00 and some data-tab at $1a00-$1fff - I will crunch the music and the data which will result in maybe $1000-$1600 (just an example). So what I do is have that packed data in my intro, and when intro starts depack the music to eg $e000-$ea00 and the data-tab to $ea00-$efff.
Which gives me $1600-$1fff free for other data and plus I can use $1000-$1600 on the fly...After exit of intro there is NO NEED to clean up $e000-$efff which I messed up? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Yes! That scenario is entirely within the rules, and you are correct, no need to clean up $e000-$efff. |
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Rudi
Account closed
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 125 |
Whats the concrete point behind not trashing RAM from $2800 to $cfff? Those locations have just 64 bytes of trailing zero's and one's anyway?? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2852 |
Intro is short for introduction, and that implies it's followed by something else. The mentioned area of RAM shall be able to hold the program being introduced. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
First cab's off the ranks - fast work Mayday!
Passes RAM use test with flying colours, so to speak.
I'll mostly just comment on breaches, but I'm watching, and it's good to start on a positive note. |
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Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 129 |
Fast work yes, but the time is short. So don't expect 50 entries this time. |
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Rudi
Account closed
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 125 |
Krill: That clarified it for me. Thanks |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4606 |
Write in English, please. If your English is bad, learn English. I will censor your German. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2852 |
Wat. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025 |
Quote: Wat.
Say what again motherfucker!!! AGAIN!! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
There was a question in German, and I responded in a mishmash of duolingo learnings and google translate. Then the cops arrived :D
Anyway, to answer the question, if space is pressed, exit (perhaps reset, or silent black screen.)
Also, just pretend there is a packed game sitting at $2800-$cfff.
During testing I'll put some data there before loading, and will check it is still there after space is pressed.
I'll turn a blind eye while the intro is running.
Do what you like with $d000-$27ff. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4606 |
Quote: Wat.
It was not aimed at you. It was aimed at already censored discussions in German. So might look confusing now. :D |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2852 |
Quoting hedningIt was not aimed at you. Ah, i gathered as much. It's just a little disorienting is all. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
time for this |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 201 |
Oh right, we're not supposed to post in German |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
This is also German, kinda: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSLIZJDryio
We Dutch were glad to get rid of him. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
ihr sauft doch alle lack |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Was meinst 'lack'?
(Google translate sucks) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4606 |
The only german you need is Der Danko. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmaocNhVCs |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
I do enjoy that one. But... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JX1b_an9FCs |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Vielleicht https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lack ?
(perhaps Groepaz is suggesting we are all drinking paint) |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 254 |
That would explain a lot, really. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
pleez use the forum for your offtopic chat.
oh wait, this is the forum! trollololllol!! |
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Rastah Bar
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336 |
Quoting ChristopherJamThere was a question in German, and I responded in a mishmash of duolingo learnings and google translate. Then the cops arrived :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et1k40W__7M |
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Rastah Bar
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336 |
;-) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
maybe I'm just lost in all that blah blah,
but ain't there really no rules about...
... NTSC?
... stop by press space? |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
From the rules:
Quote: exits within 5 seconds of pressing space
But yes, no rules about NTSC. Something for next year's compo runner to consider :) |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
cool entries in this compo, but... too few! what about extending the deadline?!? just an idea... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
4 days not enough for you to make your entry? pfff |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
I was just comparing old ICC compo, with all those entries. ok, rules are different, but here you also have less time.
My entry... uhm... I dunno if 4 days are enough for me to understand the rules. :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
The rules, simplified:
One part with logo+scroller+music
space to exit
8k file limit
Don't use ram between 2800 and cfff |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
If anyone's considering an entry but wants more time, message me. I'll push out the deadline if there's any interest. |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
My entry is 90-95% finished and I can make the deadline with a lot of stress but with this weekend included the chance of making it is greatly increased.
So... Yes, please! :D
However, that also increases the expectations of the voters. ;) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
OK, I'll push the deadline out at least three more days to include the coming weekend.
I will wait for further feedback before I nail it down, but it'll be no earlier than 14:00 UTC on the 8th of January. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
thanks Christopher Robin. ehm.. Jam. :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11136 |
Amateurs! |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
amateurs! interesting keyword on youp... :)
ok I contributed with something, I hope it doesn't break any rule. enjoy: F4CG 8k intro |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Your entry's fine, Mr Smasher.
$3fff is written to, but restored on exit, so all is good :) |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
Quote: OK, I'll push the deadline out at least three more days to include the coming weekend.
I will wait for further feedback before I nail it down, but it'll be no earlier than 14:00 UTC on the 8th of January.
Thanks-a-bunch, man, you just saved my night's sleep! :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Ok, just confirming new deadline of 14:00 UTC on the 8th of January.
I'll push back the voting deadline similarly,
that's now 14:00 UTC on the 15th of January. |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
Entry submitted!
And thanks again for moving the deadline, christpherjam. :) |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
and that's a wrap for the entry period. Thanks all.
14 entries, all valid. Voting time!
Voting closes at 14:00 UTC on the 15th of January. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
You're welcome, AoD. |
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Didi
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 479 |
Voting time is nearly over now. Go for it! |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Yes, get voting everyone! Just a day and a half to the deadline. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1380 |
Congratulations Oxyron for placing first with Rhabarberbar!
Final rankings:
Place Release rating
1 Rhabarberbar by Oxyron 9.0
2 Taste the Rainbow by Mayday! 8.4
3 Dream of the Flood by The Solution 8.3
4 F4CG 8k intro by Fantastic 4 Cracking Group 8.2
5 WGI2K15-8K2K17 by WiseGuy Industries 2015 8.1
6 DSR 8090 by Desire 7.8
7 PETSCII-Intro V1 by CODE7 7.7
8 Dead Cracker's Charts - X-Mas 2017 by Vision 7.6
9 Punk Intro 2018 by PunkPunkPunk 7.2
10 Mayday on Fire by Didi 7.1
11 Roman Tile by Coine 6.6
12 Raw2Ktro by Mayday! 6.5
13 Riverwash Invitation by Rabenauge 5.9
14 RPL Intro #8 by Really Proud Lamers 5.8
Very close field for the runners up; there was a three way tie for second place until forty five minutes before voting closed.
Thanks everyone for all your entries, votes and comments. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Well deserved winner. Congrats to Oxyron.
The constraints were interesting this year. Looking forward to next year's discussion and excuses. :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
imho F4CG should have made it in top 3
but votes are votes :) congratulations to all participant, everyone's a winner, even #12 downwards x_)
Cheers & thx to Christopher for organizing |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Congrats! |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote:imho F4CG should have made it in top 3
Bobby Fischer became the world chess champion in the '70s; you all know the "game of the century" USA vs URSS back then. At #1 he stopped playing, lost interest in the game, disappeared for decades...
So 4th place in 8k intro compo is an excellent rank, and it motivates me to do better. any higher position would only increase the risk for me to follow Bobby's way, so downvoters don't quit your job if you love me... :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025 |
Quote: imho F4CG should have made it in top 3
but votes are votes :) congratulations to all participant, everyone's a winner, even #12 downwards x_)
Cheers & thx to Christopher for organizing
coward anonymous downvoters!!! :) |
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Axis/Oxyron
Registered: Apr 2007
Posts: 91 |
Thanks for organizing Christopher. That intro-compo was big fun, as always. And I liked the challenging rule-set. Only a bit sad, that there were not so many entries like in the last years. |
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pcollins
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 8 |
Congrats! Good Job Axis .. |
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Angel of Death
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 210 |
Hmpf... We really should have ended higher. ;)
But I'm not discouraged, keep the challenges coming! :D |
