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Forums > C64 Pixeling > This is the Thread for everything NUFLI!

2009-07-19 23:30

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

This is the Thread for everything NUFLI!

The Era of NUFLI has begun - Bye Bye Interlace!

So what do you guys think? 8)

btw. Until Bitbreaker decides the converter is fit for release, you may send me your pictures and I'll put them through it. No, I won't fix the bugs for you (been doing that for over a hundred hours in the recent months! <:-), you gotta learn your way around the editor eventually if you want that extra edge of perfection - But I will offer some advice on different approaches how to combat teh blockiness or teh color lack, i even prepared some tutorials I will post here later! ;-)

Please do keep in mind that even in NUFLI, you still only have 3 colors horizontally in every char -with one fixed for 6 chars- (5 or 6 in the FLIbug, but that's for all 3 chars!). Considering that IFLI has a maximum of 6 colors in one char, it's quite surprising the pictures in the Slideshow come over so well, but apparently most people don't use IFLIs capabilities to the full extent - and then there's the horizontal PAL colorblur, which means many different colors don't actually make so much sense after all, since you can't distinguish all the colors so well anyway!

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2009-07-22 19:12

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Here's a prepped example pic from a truecolor photograph i took in Cambodia:

Keep in mind that this is in interlaced colors and that it hasn't gone through the converter yet, it's just how it renders a picture in c64 colors!

2009-07-22 19:57

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702

Deekay. The description of the routine was only based on the most basic example (standard hires and multicolor underlay) I admit the converter code was done in an hour or so.
The point i was making was that with such a mode with far less limitations than standard hires (NUFLI, MUFLI), why there was a substantial amount of errors. I am not trying to put anyone down here. just a constructive critism. I have displayed the wolverine picture converted into plain hires and underlay for comparison and ofcourse the MUFLI/NUFLI version is more defined for the very colorful image, but with two colors every 8x2 in the FLI mode combined with sprite color changes i was expecting less errors without the need to touch up the pictures that much

Ofcourse there is more work to convert to the NUFLI/MUFLI mode. but with the color limitation being lifted, the mode has the capability of displaying with less visible errors

Below is the direct conversion in standard hires and underlay (MUCSU) without any touches to the image

And below this is the NUFLI conversion without any touches

With such a mode able to have 2 different colors per 8x2 and sprite color changes but looking very similar to standard hires with underlay, is it wrong for me to not try to give some critism. Like I said, I only discussed that there must be a possible bug in the conversion routine of the NUFLI converter or how the routine works

2009-07-22 20:06

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

>> The Era of NUFLI has begun - Bye Bye Interlace!

Well, as I posted in the picture demo thread, interlace does have its merits. Not when you're throwing tons of white in there, but you can sure get some nice glows with the darker tints.

>> Please do keep in mind that even in NUFLI, you still only have 3 colors horizontally in every char -with one fixed for 6 chars-

What? No total freedom? And I was so looking forward to plotting an eight colour gradient in a single line of each character! Seriously though, thanks for sharing the restrictions, that helps planning the colouring of my Pokémon conversions...

Will say thanks for this new mode. Fullscreen lotsa flexible colours no interlace is always very, very nice.

Cheers,
Vincent.
PS: By the way, DeeKay, how do the fullscreen IFLI pictures from Krestology hold up after conversion? I kinda hoped for/expected them to pop up in the demo...
-- La vie, c'est la guerre des dualités.

2009-07-22 20:39

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702

Quote: >> The Era of NUFLI has begun - Bye Bye Interlace!

Well, as I posted in the picture demo thread, interlace does have its merits. Not when you're throwing tons of white in there, but you can sure get some nice glows with the darker tints.

>> Please do keep in mind that even in NUFLI, you still only have 3 colors horizontally in every char -with one fixed for 6 chars-

What? No total freedom? And I was so looking forward to plotting an eight colour gradient in a single line of each character! Seriously though, thanks for sharing the restrictions, that helps planning the colouring of my Pokémon conversions...

Will say thanks for this new mode. Fullscreen lotsa flexible colours no interlace is always very, very nice.

Cheers,
Vincent.
PS: By the way, DeeKay, how do the fullscreen IFLI pictures from Krestology hold up after conversion? I kinda hoped for/expected them to pop up in the demo...
-- La vie, c'est la guerre des dualités.

Further to that. you cant use spritecolor and a papercolor in a 2x1 area at the same time as the spritepixel is 2x1 in size. only the ink color (at 1x1) can appear at any position

2009-07-22 20:43

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Algo: There is no "bug". Two things:
1) You're using multicolor sprites, we use Hires. 4 colors in 8 pixel width vs 3. Like I said before, using MCol sprites in NUFLI should improve quality quite a bit more even!
2) Like I also said before: Your result is pretty much it, it doesn't get much better even with manual work, since you can only change color in a whole 8x8 block (fat chance the converter could not get THAT right!), set or unset bitmap pixels or set one of four colors as the background in a quarter char. that is it! With NUFLI I *can* fix the bugs (and I've NEVER encountered a bug I couldn't fix somehow!) because i have FLI in Bitmap and sprites!

Besides, NUFLI works for almost any picture, not just some selected ones...

2009-07-22 20:45

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Quote: Further to that. you cant use spritecolor and a papercolor in a 2x1 area at the same time as the spritepixel is 2x1 in size. only the ink color (at 1x1) can appear at any position

well, no shit, sherlock? 8)

UFLI is from 1996, dude...

2009-07-22 21:00

algorithm

Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702

Quote: Algo: There is no "bug". Two things:
1) You're using multicolor sprites, we use Hires. 4 colors in 8 pixel width vs 3. Like I said before, using MCol sprites in NUFLI should improve quality quite a bit more even!
2) Like I also said before: Your result is pretty much it, it doesn't get much better even with manual work, since you can only change color in a whole 8x8 block (fat chance the converter could not get THAT right!), set or unset bitmap pixels or set one of four colors as the background in a quarter char. that is it! With NUFLI I *can* fix the bugs (and I've NEVER encountered a bug I couldn't fix somehow!) because i have FLI in Bitmap and sprites!

Besides, NUFLI works for almost any picture, not just some selected ones...

No. Multicolor sprite underlay is at 4x1 resolution hence can only have three colors per 8 pixel width. eg any sprite/paper color for first half of 4 pixels, any sprite paper color for second half of 4 pixels and then one ink color freely placeable in the 8 pixel width. There are restrictions in multicolor expanded sprites as you may know. only way of getting rid of blockiness is to mask it with the 1x1 ink color. hence restrictions in both hires x expanded sprites and mcol x expanded sprites each with their advantage and disadvantage
NUFLI gives you 2 colors per 8x2 as well as hires x expanded underlay at 2x1 with sprite colors being able to get changed.

The point i am making is that the MUCSU mode does not use FLI at all and only three fixed sprite colors for the entire screen. but in comparison to the example pics of the guitar in the FLI and sprite changing NUFLI mode and other examples it still gives decent results. Yes I agree that because of the limitations in the standard hires MUCSU mode, it would be harder to touch up the conversion.

Perhaps if i create the sliced mode version of the converter that gives me 6 additional colors per charblock as well as changing the sprite colors you will notice the dramatic difference regardless if it uses hires or multicolor underlay as each have their advantages and disadvantages

2009-07-23 05:56

Jetboy

Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 226

How about doing ultimate converter, that not only tries all color combinations, but also tires different modes on per line (or rather per n-th line) bitmap and sprite mode changes?

2009-07-23 08:07

DeeKay

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 362

Jetboy: People have been talking about that like forever, sometimes it goes by the name ILM (Independent Line Manipulation). I've heard of "compilers" that generate timed displayer code depending on the picture. However, nobody has ever done such a thing, so get cracking, guys!
And it'd better be good, meaning: virtually NO errors after conversion. Because there is simply no way you can fix *anything* by hand in this anymore!

2009-07-23 11:17

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5025

algo, its easy to speak theoretically. go write an actual better one. :)