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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
Trolley Follies
"The entry was deleted by a moderator on 2018-06-20 12:13:48+00 for reason: basic, not worthy"
until now, i always thought we are acting by the rule of "we dont judge quality" here. apparently that has changed now? please point me to the new rules that now define what is worthy and what is not. (and why this: http://www.blackcastlesoftware.com/games/trolleyFollies/ is not) thanks. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Teh fuck?! |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Simple, 3 mods refused multiple times to accept the author of the game as CSDb user because, yes, just a basic game. Fuck it, really.
The basic game got uploaded by someone else, and the author entry got created. This creates a circular consequence that the author NOW should be eligible of a CSDb access, just because it has an entry here.
It's head or tails, accept him and his basic stuff, whatever it is, or don't accept both him and his stuff.
Same goes for others not making anything else other than basic programs.
It's about drawing a line. 3 mods, me included, were agreeing about removing basic games and authors of such games if there is nothing else that can justify them as scene entries in here.
It's ok to start from somewhere, but do we really want to transform CSDb into a wannabe basic programmers database? Just dump in CSDb whatever you want like 10PRINT"HELLO":GOTO10 and be okay with it? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
i have heard this before, but it doesnt answer anything.
so when i see a basic game uploaded, how exactly do i decide now if it belongs here or not?
and if i browse the db and stumble about a basic game, how exactly do i decide if it should get removed or not?
i really find this a bit worrying, stuff getting deleted not because of site rules (which some genious decided to remove) - but because of personal pet theories of 3 grumpy mods.
but yeah, i can see how this is easier than having to match your own releases against those nasty rules that once existed =P |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting iAN CooGThe basic game got uploaded by someone else, and the author entry got created. This creates a circular consequence that the author NOW should be eligible of a CSDb access, just because it has an entry here.
Why not re-evaluate this rule instead of deleting releases for the sake of preventing people from gaining access to CSDb. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
btw to make this clear: i am not opposed to removing this per se - however there should be clearly defined as to why it happens, and the same rule will then be applied to every other release. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
So you want to remove all stuff by Cout for example and give guy a heart attack? Not nice. There should be general poll for users about BASIC stuff if you consider it a problem. |
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alterus
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 10 |
So if there is a BASIC compo and people upload their entries, then its OK, even if they suck? But if its a game someone put lots of time into, its not worthy because its BASIC? How does that make sense? |
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alterus
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 10 |
Oh, so now I see the mods have removed all the BASIC compo stuff, well at least the BASIC 10 liners compos. You deleted one of my entries... How nice.... Fucking lame guys. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
i'd still be interested in how its decided what gets deleted and what not, since "me and 3 other mods thought its shit" cant be it. since there are apparently now more cases, there must be a common way to determine what is worthy and what isnt. also "compo stuff isnt worthy" is quite a change from the common practise. pretty lame indeed. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
If I have to ask you permission or open a poll to hear what users think what's best to do my job in here, I'd rather quit. I don't have to justify myself, it's already democratic enough: 3 mods agreed, the decision was made. If noone agreed, all would be the same as before.
End of the story. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5017 |
how about this, what makes a basic game a scene release ? :) |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
Quoting iAN CooGIf I have to ask you permission or open a poll to hear what users think what's best to do my job in here, I'd rather quit.
iAN, with all respect to your so far great job in variou fields - your task here is allegedly to keep order, not play god doing whatever you and co-mods feel like doing. This site is not mods' property - you SERVE C64 community here, not own it. Right? Doing freelance in such rather impactful decisions like mass throwing out content is total lack of respect for others, simply. |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
(edit: response to Oswald)
When it's introlinked by one of the great cracking groups of today ofcourse.
But I wouldn't just reject BASIC. Properly using BASIC (ie abusing the hell out of the interpreter) is a valid coding skill. And might even defeat some asm entries for specific coding challenges. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Jammer: keep order, exactly what I did. Do you prefer that CSDb becomes the dumpster of wannabe basic lamers? Be my guest, you can have my mod position anytime. I'm rather tired of this debate already. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Don’t get defensive Ian. I’m sure most agree that your descision is fine. Just update the rules to make it clear. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1289 |
I don't mind very cleansing - you do what you gotta do. I do mind it was a major decision and it wasn't transparent for people it affected. And what JackAsser said ;) |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Hmm... so, does this mean that CSDb is curated now instead of just an archive where none of the releases can be unreleased or deleted? Next time consider giving Bacchus a break when he wants to unrelease a buggy (= bad quality which is just as bad as a basic release) release of his.
Instead of deleting releases to prevent someone from gaining access to CSDb, why not re-evaluate this rule that once someone has a release on CSDb access is granted automatically. kill the root of your problem, deleting the symptoms won't solve your problem. You guys made up this rule and now you make all basic releases victim of your silly rule and all of this because you guys don't want this one dude have access to CSDb. Change the rule. Add that it doesn't count for basic-only releases or something like that and your problem is gone.
Also, please tell one of your mods that CGR BASIC Demos Competition 2018 doesn't belong here anymore. Before you know people are uploading new basic releases and the three of you need to delete them.
;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
Quote:If I have to ask you permission or open a poll to hear what users think what's best to do my job in here, I'd rather quit.
you dont have to ask anyone for permission. however there should be clear rules that EVERYONE sticks to. because ONLY then the db can be run properly - when everyone KNOWS the rules AND sticks to them.
with certain individuals making up their arbitrary decisions whenever they feel like something is shit - the db simply can not work in a useful way.
and if you cant even tell the rule according to which those releases were deleted, and other releases can be tested on and eventually deleted too - then you already know that "rule" is pretty shit to begin with. |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 110 |
So since we are here and csdb is now palace of quality, should we also destroy
Kakkados
Pieru
Elvytyspaketti
Yleisradio Megademo
YLE is Radio
Tekstiviesti Siriuksesta
A Mace in Mace
Holmes Family
Kaipuu Ukrainaan, muistojen maahan
Black on Black
so what are you waiting for????? |
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alterus
Registered: Feb 2016
Posts: 10 |
I think this decision to ban all BASIC programs is a really bad one and will have a long term negative effect on CSDb.
This is basically a bias against one programming language over others. Sure BASIC is easier to learn and slower than Assembly, but you can still do amazing things with it when its used in an expert fashion. If a release is "scene related", what ever that means, it should be allowed in my opinion.
Are BASIC demos allowed now? Making a good one of those takes serious skill. How is it any less "scene related"?
Also, where do you draw the line? Most BBS software is compiled BASIC. Is it not worthy now either?
You absolutely shouldn't be banning entries based on the language they are programmed in. It should be based 100% on their content. Anything else is just stupid. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
Quote:this decision to ban all BASIC programs
the first thing to make clear would be whether this IS the decision (i really doubt it) in the first place. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2839 |
How come nobody mentioned Pirates!, the best BASIC game ever (and one of the best C-64 games in general), yet? :) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1821 |
We are currently running an internal discussion which of course also includes Pirates, many RPGs and even Commando Lybia... Please stay tuned - we appreciate your input. |
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Knight Rider
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 114 |
Don't forget Red Storm Rising too |
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Shine
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 327 |
Smooth BASIC Scroll by Walt/BZ
...which is a kind of masterpiece imo. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote: So since we are here and csdb is now palace of quality, should we also destroy
Kakkados
Pieru
Elvytyspaketti
Yleisradio Megademo
YLE is Radio
Tekstiviesti Siriuksesta
A Mace in Mace
Holmes Family
Kaipuu Ukrainaan, muistojen maahan
Black on Black
so what are you waiting for?????
don't try me, that crap should have never been allowed in first place =) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
It'd be great fun to spend a night at csdb after that new rule is out |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1989 |
Quote: It'd be great fun to spend a night at csdb after that new rule is out
We need to create a new Db focused on preseving that what is thrown out feom CSDb |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
CommodoreShittyBasicAndUselessEventsDatabase \o/ |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
Too bad, I hope there will be more databases for unforgiven and given.. (there is).
Nice game, cannot believe it is in basic, YouTube gives away a nice preview there.
Does not look basic.
This is where the non-scene/scene still gives away, part from those public domain scribbles
(Notes from swappers, misc. from coders and graphicians just left a 25 years old logo on any disc etc. Demos and tools done by nobodies in the scene.
Groups which had quitted or changed names, kicked out members or gained more)
No one want to touch it. Games not released, but released (support the company, while we spread wares at parties etc.).
No meta-tags (it will never show in this kind of database,
"demo of love", "good-bye", "Alice from Wonderland", unless it’s ripped apart
and recoded, transmitted, emigrated onto something else, which people have tried for graphics alone so far).
Especially not from newly dead people, something which in the next 20 years, will be
horrible (as the archive grows, from recovered stuff, some scanned as .pdfs)
I would say raising the bar, part from the uncomfortable administration. Kill them all ;D
In 20-50 years (maximum) csdb will be no more, our children will not help us, and it will be just a dead spot
Running without administration in a dead cold space, anyway (if the server is still working?).
Enjoy it while it lasts. |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
if they're just BASIC programs with NO scene links/history whatsoever to preserve, then I'm really not too bothered if they're wiped. |
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Rastah Bar
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336 |
What about seuck games? |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
The same, in approx, 20-50 years the current scenemembers will be dead from this and that.
Will the server casted by noone hold the stuff still, an empty echo? From SEUCK and BASIC games onto demogroups pushing the machine for more than 1 year.
No,
Enjoy it while it lasts. What you are witnessing is death, not birth. Gosh someone mentioned X 2028, lol. A great handfull of people left back then ;D |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2070 |
Sure, there's tons of BASIC crap no one would miss, but this also applies for machine language releases, and as crappiness lies in the eye of the beholder, it's a bad idea to classify what stays on that base :)
my 1.5 cents: Personally, I don't really see the point in this cleansing approach. Are we running out of server space? Do we need BASIC&SEUCK free CSDB to make clear that BASIC sucks, SEUCK is lame, cool (40 years old) kids should learn Assembler, finally? However, I think BASIC stuff released at _real_ events should be kept, not sure if standalone BASIC/SEUCK compos matter enough to "scene" (for whatever that means, at the end of the day very few people, here: admins, will define that, as this ain't Commodore Scene Democracy Base, just in case anyone forgot, past discussions have shown it's good to get along with that).
Let's wait for an official definition by our leaders.
Gabbo will tell us what to do! |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
Gabbo will tell us what to do ;D
Did you guys witness Europe lately? It was never about excuses, neither democracy :D
No more excuses |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
Quoting Rastah BarWhat about seuck games?
BASIC > anything made in seuck.. anytime of eternity ;) |
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Mr.Ammo
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 228 |
Quoting TheRyk[...] as this ain't Commodore Scene Democracy Base, just in case anyone forgot [...]
Indeed, it's the Commodore Scene Drama Base! |
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mankeli
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 110 |
Quote: don't try me, that crap should have never been allowed in first place =)
Please go ahead. Ban all of them! Hit the delete button! Ohh, it will make you feel like god! I promise it will. Make everybody part of your bad feeling. Let the juices of omnipotency flow through you, oh what a rush! That amazing tingling sensation. I bet the csdb will then become exactly the dreamland of quality you dream of! :-)
But seriously though. You have done great work for c64 scene, but please don't fuck this up. CSDB has been an archive of everything c64. "the c64 scene database" has been written even to the csdb-logo.gif itself since 2002 (iirc) or so. If you want to make your dreamland of quality happen, please do it somewhere else or implement some kind of tagging/voluntary filtering system here. |
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Rastah Bar
Registered: Oct 2012
Posts: 336 |
Quote: Quoting Rastah BarWhat about seuck games?
BASIC > anything made in seuck.. anytime of eternity ;)
I don't know. There are excellent BASIC and SEUCK productions, so deleting everything that falls into one broad category doesn't make much sense to me. |
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ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1378 |
As the old saw goes, you can write FORTRAN in any language. Flip side of that, a skilled artisan often produces wonders despite their ostensibly terrible tools. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
so whats the rule now? or do you need another week to make it up?
there is a weekend coming up with beer and delete button! |
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Copyfault
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 466 |
Reading this makes me really sad somehow...
Wasn't CSDB meant to be an archive for the history of *all* scene activities connected to the C64? Who has the right to draw the line between scene-relevant and non-relevant?
Why not let every C64 release be admitted to the db? Even though I'm not a friend of the current voting system (I consequently avoid using it) I think that crappy stuff will get its deserved share by receiving a constant low level of votes.
Some kind of tagging system would simplify (read: structurize) things even more but I won't open that can of pandora here ;)
Just my 1/2 cent... |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
Quote: Reading this makes me really sad somehow...
Wasn't CSDB meant to be an archive for the history of *all* scene activities connected to the C64? Who has the right to draw the line between scene-relevant and non-relevant?
Why not let every C64 release be admitted to the db? Even though I'm not a friend of the current voting system (I consequently avoid using it) I think that crappy stuff will get its deserved share by receiving a constant low level of votes.
Some kind of tagging system would simplify (read: structurize) things even more but I won't open that can of pandora here ;)
Just my 1/2 cent...
CSDb is indeed a SCENE database, not a EVERYTHING GOES database. WE mods are drawing a line to allow scene stuff and disallowing non scene stuff and people. Not everything is scene stuff. To allow everything we should remove SCENE from the name of the db and add a DUMPSTER in it. And yes, WE decide what to do. Not happy with it? Make a demo about it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
"Not everything is scene stuff."
thats out of the question.
so, what IS scene stuff then?
PS: kinda sad that obviously some ppl, even moderators, dont know the existing rules even - see https://csdb.dk/help.php?section=rules - and its the moderators job to enforce those rules, not to arbitrary decide whatever they feel like. its not the moderators who decide, its the moderators who set up the rules. important difference. |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
Quote:so, what IS scene stuff then?
"Scene stuff" is stuff released/produced by a scener.
To be a scener you need to pass the Certified Professional Scener Exam with a score higher than 65%.
I finally made it last year after retrying 3-4 times. lotsa questions about bitch and bikes or sumthing like that. tough one! :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
 |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2070 |
wow all cout stuff gone, really 8o
including the most downloaded release ever! /o\
not really a big fan but find it rather extreme |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11114 |
Quote:I guess it's ok to keep it here, it's not a commercial game, it's not actually a game at all as there's only a title screen and a ?SYNTAX ERROR as soon as you press fire =)
>_< |
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Smasher
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 512 |
I think that 8bit BASIC coding in 2018 is really cool. that's pure retro dedication! Today for the C64 I'm using win32 IDEs to asm code, win32 compilers, win32 tools to paint, emulators, etc. So, those modern BASIC coders, despite the quality of the results, deserve more respect that me. I feel like those like Cout are l33t and I'm ze lamah here.
I hope the BASIC ban decision can be reversed. "not worth releases", while recracks, stuff done with intromakers, horrible stuff done by a casual c64 owner with zero scene links, etc is kept. it makes me *uhm* *uhm* *uhm* a lot. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3132 |
ok seems like you like your basic crap, here, everything undeleted, divarin and cout, basic entries, all restored.
Don't ask my opinion on this anymore. Seems like it doesn't have any weight so why bothering? |
