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angelo
Registered: Jul 2024
Posts: 13 |
Howdy
Hi there. It's my first post here, so lemme introduce myself. I'm angelo, or æn.d͡ʒə.loʊ, or unj, a founder of KSKPD, the group behind polish unesco application.
I'm in process of researching some early-computing stuff, including an idea planted by @Krill and @bitfat, that the default narrative of "In the beginning it was a cracker scene, that developed into demoscene later because $REASONS" might be worth challenging.
I might be asking in various sub-forums questions around data on this site, but while I used to be a part of demoscene as a coder (1995+), I also owned PC exclusively since my first computer in like 1990. I skipped 8bit phase completely, so please bare with me, if the questions sound obvious or straight-up outrageously naive :) |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 443 |
Breathe, reflect, let go, repeat. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Quoting MixerBreathe, reflect, let go, repeat. =)
4gentE: Still busy working on an answer that wouldn't repeat anything i already said, to drive the point more in the general direction of home. Chiseling one character at a time... .. . |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
Making fists with my toes on the carpet. ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11281 |
meanwhile we can question how relevant wikipedia is for anything |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
I generally agree about Wiki.
However, considering this specific topic, while We’re at it, do you suggest We question or outright deny the relevance of:
research articles :
http://www.kameli.net/demoresearch2/reunanensilvast-hinc2.pdf (Chapter 2.1)
http://widerscreen.fi/numerot/2014-1-2/crackers-became-us-demos..
diskmag article(s):
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/recollection/?load=online_issu..
and printed books written by protagonists:
https://www.amazon.com/Freax-Brief-History-Computer-Demoscene-e..
…in favor of how 2-3 people feel about it and what those 2-3 people say? One of whom dead serious literally provided this (counter) argument: “…demoscene doesnt comes from crack scene because O***** and K**** says so in csdb.” That’d be a weird choice wouldn’t it? Don’t get me wrong, I’m all in for dismantling myths, but this is not it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
So, let's return to the original statement to which i objected (with a strong C-64 scene focus in mind):
Quoting hedningThe demo scene emanates from the cracking scene Hypothesis: The early scene had people produce cracks, intros, and demos.
Sometimes the same dudes, often the same groups, still the same scene.
The same people swapped both legal and illegal productions, and met at the same parties.
As such, the objection is that assuming it thus, there follows a contradiction to above quote.
There wasn't a separate cracking scene, thus a separate demoscene could not emanate from it.
It doesn't even matter much how the internal timeline went, what kind of production came first, or which styles of productions or demos themselves were more popular at which time.
It was the same scene, the same people, the same hodgepodge of legal, illegal and anything in between productions, with the notion and name of a scene-made "demo", in today's meaning, being established early on, long before there was any talk of split or divergence into separate scenes.
Note that this narrative does not contradict
Quoting 4gentEthe fully formed scene exists in mid 1980s and that this scene is predominantly swapping cracks (with intros) and to a much lesser extent demos (which by this time tend to look like standalone intros minus the size cap, wonder why) as described in Newscopy's article. Merely the finer details as for quantities and their interpretation vary. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
@Krill
Thanks for that summary.
Difference in views on some points I can indeed see as a matter of semantics. On some other points not.
I have nothing more to write here, I guess all that needed to be said has been said, some things more than once (sorry for that).
And I have to admit I still pretty much fail to see the point of an initiative, a push for nearly cosmetical changes of what is in most papers a preamble. Seems like arguing that Doner is the favourite snack of the scene instead of currywurst, and trying to prove it. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2940 |
Maybe, maybe not just a case of semantics. Sometimes the wording is important! :)
Also "These programs were initially known by various names, such as letters or messages, but they later came to be known as demos." from the Wikipedia article you quoted is nonsense, of course.
They were known as demos early on, just that "letters" or "messages" were specific styles.
But again, could just be non-important details. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 178 |
About Wiki entry: of course. A case of "creative" third-hand oversimplification until it makes no sense any more. As if the world wouldn't know what a demo is if someone didn't write his name on a copied game first. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1870 |
Luckily you obv. are aware that most of the mod teams is currently on strike - so, PLEASE keep this hilarious lemon-like pot of shit cooking.
Rest assured though! We are ofc still tracking your shithead posts and discuss about it :) |
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