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2023-12-22 18:03

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496

Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal

Dear fellow sceners,

This is an attempt to get more understanding among, and for, C64 demoscene pixel artists. It’s not written to limit anyone, but a prayer for more transparency.

Read the document here: ->Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal<-

We tried to give define and value different processes. Which is a result of discussion, where we saw mutual grounds and felt the need to write these down.
We will update the document periodically, when enough input has been gathered and sorted out.

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subjects in the document.
Please post them in this thread.

(Personally I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be transparant about it. However, I do agree with the values communicated in this document.)

... 137 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-12-26 17:31

Nim

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27

Quote: The lot of you make me disgusted, it's hard to go on, with being disgusted at people, trying to do art, with people laughing at art and just keeping on making fun at it with poor competitions and awards like the Ninja, and stuff like that. Poor is the references when texts arise, and poor is the references when art is aroused (Part from MultiStyle Labs which has serious music-value). Poor is values when stuff is shown, it's always THIS THIS IS and seldomly THAT, THOSE and THEIRS. disgusted. I think the text was a start at this, to try to find the real starting point, and not that one we all felt before - the disgusting one.

Joe, we obviously worship different gods, in the context of a tree, you worship the fruit, the end result and the labor... There are many, some are better, some are worse and some are rotten, but glory be the perfect fruit, basking in the sunlight.

There is nothing wrong with it, the quality of the fruit is the treasure. It deserves attention.

Some of us worship the whole, the ground, the roots, the trunk of the tree, the branches, the leaves, the sunlight, the air and the rain.

We worship what makes the fruit possible. And when we see fruitlovers cutting at the roots because they're not considering the whole, someone like me will say stop, you don't know what you're doing.

So stop, you don't know what you're doing.

2023-12-26 17:42

Joe

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 229

"So stop, you don't know what you are doing", wow, you stop. es ekelt mich an! This disgust me! This is not ok adressing me this way Nim!

2023-12-26 18:02

Nim

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27

Quote: "So stop, you don't know what you are doing", wow, you stop. es ekelt mich an! This disgust me! This is not ok adressing me this way Nim!

Stop what? I'm reacting to a bad idea, i and others are trying to explain why it's a bad idea. It's not that the sentiment is wrong, it's the implementation that isn't thought out, and probably the imagined problem either.

Workstages? Not one person is against,
Credits? Who would object?
Explaining your process? A bit more suspect, but if you're genuinly interested i love to share some knowledge.

We ALL know and agree with this, so what then is this document trying to do?

But how about the unseen?

Experimentation, learning process, getting feedback, giving feedback, the necessity for mystery, guesswork, optimization and speeding up processes.

All of these and a whole bunch more are all part and necessary for the pixel garden of the scene.

The weeds you're trying to get rid of, the lies, the cheats, and the people who just want to see the world burn, those will remain unaffected, and in some cases, empowered by the type of nudging this type of regulation implies.

It's just a bad idea.

2023-12-26 18:04

LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 83

@Joe: why not form a gfx group and set new standards? Like MSL for gfx. The scene needs and loves em all, pros, amateurs and even lamers.

Amateur is supposed to be a positive word btw.

2023-12-26 18:07

Joe

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 229

At least people can see for the future how people act against each other with comments above ^^ and can be assured the c64 scene was less than happy to be around; D.

The funniest bit was the competitions, which sometimes was around the corner. Sour looser as seen in many of the threads and threats as these recent ones. I hope someone could still share a happy Christmas greeting: With sour dinosaurs they are at least honest too people who pretend to be honest: Happy Losers and and a happy New Year.

It's just a bad idea, now leave me alone, so I might be able to do art again! And I always put workstages.

2023-12-26 18:13

Nim

Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 27

Quote: At least people can see for the future how people act against each other with comments above ^^ and can be assured the c64 scene was less than happy to be around; D.

The funniest bit was the competitions, which sometimes was around the corner. Sour looser as seen in many of the threads and threats as these recent ones. I hope someone could still share a happy Christmas greeting: With sour dinosaurs they are at least honest too people who pretend to be honest: Happy Losers and and a happy New Year.

It's just a bad idea, now leave me alone, so I might be able to do art again! And I always put workstages.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year, i hope it's not... disgusting ;)

2023-12-26 18:13

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954

Quoting LMan

@Joe: why not form a gfx group and set new standards? Like MSL for gfx. The scene needs and loves em all, pros, amateurs and even lamers.

Amateur is supposed to be a positive word btw.

Isn't it already a gfx group?

2023-12-26 18:17

Joe

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 229

You can find most of my graphics here:
https://www.behance.net/james_svard

2023-12-26 18:26

acrouzet

Registered: May 2020
Posts: 97

Looks like this thread has gone on long enough to start to devolve into the exaggerated arguing phase. For my own hastily-written two cents, I honestly can't really see a scene-wide guide like this working out, especially since the scene is so decentralized (which I think is a good thing). I'm sympathetic to the motivations behind it. I'm deeply concerned about AI too, but at the same time, obsessing over potential new rules may make things worse? From my limited and young experience, I feel like the scene's "rules" kinda just came about through unwritten agreements developed on a case-by-case basis. The scene is such a voluntary thing, nothing will work unless everyone agrees that it will ultimately make their life more fulfilling.

Maybe we can learn from the music scene. Even the greats of the likes of Rob Hubbard and Martin Galway sometimes straight up covered artists like Jean Michel-Jarre and Pink Floyd without credit. Eventually the development of the HVSC and the STIL.txt allowed these covers to be known, and it became more of an untold responsibility for musicians to credit any influences in their work. Even now, I've recognized a few uncredited covers in the HVSC from as late as the 00s, but providing credits to the HVSC is seen as a good and even fun contribution to the scene. I've seen threads pop up on the forums where people work together to hunt for uncredited covers as a sort of game. And nowadays, nearly everyone who makes a cover makes sure to specify so.

I'm pretty much against trying to restrict the use of technology for anyone, but I also think that fairness in creativity is important for it to thrive. Maybe the best way forward is for competitions to make their own rules, for the community to call out bad actors when they arise and work together to do the obvious right things when the opportunities arise. In the end, the future is unpredictable, best to just enjoy creating and sharing art while we can.

2023-12-26 18:35

LMan

Registered: Jun 2010
Posts: 83

Yeah that's what I twas getting at... Form a group, have group principles as outlined in the document, and let the best set new standards by example rather than general public rulesets. More will aspire to follow, surely not everyone.

That was also the gist of Carrion's presentation. Setting a positive example to escape the AI and cheating dilemma.

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