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Forums > C64 Coding > Pushing the envelope, Or stay beaten by a 16 YO kid!

2018-09-21 20:50

Nova

Registered: Jun 2012
Posts: 13

Pushing the envelope, Or stay beaten by a 16 YO kid!

I got abit nostalgic tonight and enjoyed some early ninetees
perfection by Flash inc, A little Light, Even Bob got in a few minutes of lalaland,Origo, byterapers, Upfront etc (Mathematica still gives me goosebumps)

It occured to me that todays elitegroups (according to me) like Oxyron,Booze,Plush,Chorus,Camelot started to emerge when us guys from the older school where just about done and our lives got in the way of the scener-life.

Back in those days everything was about squeezing every last cycle through perfecting a routine that many had made before you but if you got that last DXYCP char or those extra 10 (only in a Y sin,horrible) Plots you could reighn supreme for a few hours or even months or years before someone stole your glory and made a faster routine that often could be totaly outside the box and therefore superior.

Today everything seems to be about polished loader screens and perfect transitions between (again my opinion)"demoparts" that probably squeezes every last cycle, but who knows because there are just not 5000 fucking hungry young coders trying to make the same demopart, but just abit better.

I fell inlove with coding on the C64 because the hardware is set and everyone has the same precursors.

So, Here come the "hot potato",
Did "todays elite" choose a different path simply because
the "oldschool" effects just cannot be done faster within the hardware limitations, (sticking my chinn out here, punch it if you want to!)
Or since most of todays elite code for a living on other platforms but still cant write a faster routine then some pimplefaced 16 year old did two decades ago!!

I am not sure where i was going with this but i guess i just miss the old sceenerdays..
But it still seems strange that someone that can code bumpmapping and phongshaders on a C64 still cant write a faster dycproutine then some kid who sold the "moped" and bought a C64 two decades ago.

-WRAP!-

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2018-09-22 23:51

T.M.R
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749

Quoting Nova

So, Here come the "hot potato",
Did "todays elite" choose a different path simply because the "oldschool" effects just cannot be done faster within the hardware limitations, (sticking my chinn out here, punch it if you want to!)

Hold still then... =-)

It's not that the oldschool effects are impossible to top because it does happen and we still get the odd flurry of one-upmanship from time to time, but there's not much wiggle room left to improve on what's gone before and, whilst there might be ways to improve on plotter or DYCP records if ugly-looking curves are used, the aesthetic is important to many developers these days (although people used to rag on each other for doing that back then too...)

And that doesn't mean there isn't room for someone to code demos that concentrate on pushing boundaries and, as I seem to find myself saying a lot these days, if you want to see something it's best to lead by example... things like the intro competition or that one Monte Carlos ran for illegal opcodes a couple of years ago are great as a deadline to get something finished and, if there's no current compo on the go which fits the bill, you could always start your own...?

[Shrugs] I don't do this much but here's me offering myself as a sort-of-example; a few years back I found myself missing the days of having lots of small, fun releases and started putting out a small onefiler per month, usually trying something I hadn't done previously to push myself a little... I've no idea if those did anything apart from entertain me, but hey ho I did it anyway. =-)

2018-09-23 07:05

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

I remeber pukeing and someone holding my beer. Thanks!! :)

2018-09-24 07:45

Trap

Registered: Jul 2010
Posts: 223

Interesting discussion. I'll dish in :)

Groepaz has a point. More is not better anymore. Today, speaking for Bonzai anyway, it's not so much about creating more sprites, more scrollers, more xyz, but it is much more about creating something that looks beautiful - if difficult programming is required to get the result, then so be it, but it is not the goal. Looking back at recent AAA demos, boundaries are definitely still being pushed, but that is not what you are getting at, right Nova? What I see is that people tend to revisit old ideas and refine them so they look better. So here's what I think; demos today are just as impossible from a technical perspective, but the collaboration between coders and artists allow us to create much more beautiful results. At least that's what I am seeing.

/Trap

2018-09-24 07:48

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

you could put it like this: in 1989 the main purpose of the demo was to push the boundaries. today its a side effect. but it happens nonetheless :)

2018-09-24 09:16

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

And to add a random thought which might or might not be relevant in this discussion:

I mind-sneer whenever i hear somebody ask "Is it done with sprites? Chars? Bitmap?" :) Because really, it doesn't matter much, and many effects could be done with any of them or some combination, as the main complexity often lies with how to render, not what to render to.

2018-09-24 11:18

Trash

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122

Quote: And to add a random thought which might or might not be relevant in this discussion:

I mind-sneer whenever i hear somebody ask "Is it done with sprites? Chars? Bitmap?" :) Because really, it doesn't matter much, and many effects could be done with any of them or some combination, as the main complexity often lies with how to render, not what to render to.

I think that is half the fun with C64-demos, guessing how it is made without reading the code. Look at the rotating rasterbars in Uncensored for example, it has been puzzeling my mind even though I got an explanation from the horses mouth.

On subject: I agree with Trap, as adult programmers we really dont care if the code is hard (even if it affects the release cycles), we solve the problem. Demos of today are more polished but also more technical and new sublime effects are "baked in" into the demo leaving the audience to get wowed based on their own skills.

For me that is more fun and leads to me finding technical impossibilities on a regular basis.

2018-09-24 11:47

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Okay, granted, half-true. Some effects really allow for that question. Maybe it's just that i keep hearing that question too often, mostly when it's not warranted. :)

2018-09-24 12:46

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680

Yeah, i’d say also that a lot of the stuff being done on modern demos is tougher to put together than old school demos... and so putting it together well should make you feel good enough without needing to beat some world record.

One really annoying thing for a programmer - but annoying in a funny way - is that sometimes you spend AGES on an effect... optimising, trimming down the memory use, hand-tuning timings so that there’re no nasty taster jitters, etc etc etc... then you release the finished product and people say “oh, that’s quite nice”... gaaaaah. You want to scream - “nice? The blood, the tears, my fingernails, my receding hairline... you can’t imagine what went into this”. And that’s even worse when you try to tell someone who doesn’t know C64... “oh, if it wasn’t meant to do stuff like that - why don’t you just do it on PC?” SLAP!

2018-09-24 12:49

Raistlin

Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680

Also FYI I did actually beat one of my world records in a roundabout way in Delirious 11.... the circle scroller. I beat it only by using a larger font rather than more BOBs... but I still technically beat it. And I had spare CPU to add 2 large logos in the background. I could’ve obliterated my record if i’d put in so many BOBs that they were unreadable - but that wouldn’t fit with modern aesthetic. Times have changed.

2018-09-24 13:20

The Sarge

Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 49

This is a very interesting topic and its something I have been thinking of for a long time. So here are my thoughts.

All skills are equally important when making demos. Without good code, without good graphics/animation or without good music it will kind of fall flat. All have to work together pushing the boundaries as a team.
Some skills are maybe easier to notice, such as graphics or music. But without a great coder that graphic will just be a still picture and nothing more.

I for certain can't code one single line but I have endless appreciation for coders that can turn my ideas into something that runs on the screen the way I intended. And for that to happen you have to be great with coding. Coding may in some cases take a backseat these days as demos tend to be more arty than tech demos, so effects are not that obvious. And thats the way it should be I think. Demos got to have a good flow, story, design and music to keep them interesting. But thats not to say that the limits are not pushed as that thing called flow and storytelling is really testing the coder and hardware as it takes a lot of memory and things has to load fast.

I have recently been working on some demos where the hardware is doing "impossible" things, making us who design being able to put our ideas in motion, so for that I am endlessly in awe what coders can do today.

In my view, the demo scene is way more interesting today than before.

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