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2004-08-05 07:54

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034

LCP 2004 demos

What do you think ?

I'm sad, as there were no real coder's demos.

Afrika - we 've seen all these effects 10 years before

Triad,Flt - The design / theme of the demos were not good
enough to excuse for no spectacular codings.

Effluvium - the code was not good enough to excuse no gfx/design/whatever.

are there really no coders out there, that can come up with new stuff ?

... 131 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2004-08-05 11:17

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

It's all relative as usual. I liked these demos, except the Postcards one where I (a) laughed hard at the 'let's keep Stockholm clean' bit and (b) got so very, umm... uninterested after that. I guess you have to be from the area to appreciate the royalty jokes - relative, right.

But I'd say the general trend is very good. Demos depend on several ingredients: code, flow, concept, graphics, music. If a demo has these ingredients in spades, it will be a delicious meal for all. However, that doesn't mean that a demo lacking slightly in a certain flavour is bad.

It all boils down to who you are, and which of the ingredients *you* like having in your demo dinner. I can live without the coding world records - as long as the effects do what they're supposed to do and the rest is there, I'm happy and nurtured. The LCP demos do just that.

However, that doesn't mean that you have to enforce your diet onto everyone. Oswald, just because you aren't being served enough code, doesn't imply that the demos themselves are weak in the absolute sense.

Of course it also helps that I'm a layman when it comes to effects and hardcoding. My intuition currently says this: sideborder = evil, math effects = unrolled loops and lots of simplifying tricks, hard effects in ifli mode = hmm, new gfx modes = murrr. This, along with the fact that I'm more into the drawing/composing/design business, explains why my emphasis lies more on the other factors.

But I can understand where you're coming from, Oswald. I'm sure new demos with hardcode will come. There are enough competent chefs around - you won't have to be hungry for long =).

2004-08-05 11:18

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

ahh, after bringing us numerous tunnels and bumpmappers
and failing at making a conceptual demo oswald is here
to tell afrika that their effects are old and flt & triads
demos arent good enough. well, you would know, wouldnt you

borderline - not good enough.
its no doubt anymore, demos are wasted on the scene

2004-08-05 11:27

_V_
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124

No they're not

2004-08-05 11:29

Sat
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 12

Unfortunatly people focus on looks instead of content as always.

Thats why I say if you want looks go for a PC demo.

And tbh I dont think we are even close to utilizing the C64 to its full potential yet, but of cause that remains to be seen.

For the record I havent seen one 4x4 effect that looked nice when viewed on a normal screen yet.

For a coder adding the 'fadein' / 'fadeout' stuff also tend to be laberous boring stuff which in most cases doesnt require talent but just time (which is often what people lack these days).. Yeah I agree it looks nice when its done but I just dont value it as high as the superficial rest does ;)

I completly understand and agree with Cruzer's 'You know the routine' style demoes.. I was impressed when I first saw them, where as the current 'top' demo Deus Ex Machina on this site didnt do the same for me.. It was more like hmm ok, and yeah I know it had some nice code too (dont get me wrong here, the demo is nice, but I have others I find more impressive). I know many 90% wont understand that, but also that the last 10% old school coders will.

Another great thing about 'space-moes' is that you can load the part you would like to see incredible fast :)

2004-08-05 11:46

HCL

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 719

Hollowman just told the truth, couldn't have said it better.

2004-08-05 11:51

Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048

Thanx for the nice words, Sat. :)

Coder porn is what turns me on too, and I know for a fact that the c64 has lots of more potential in this direction, since my list of ideas keeps on growing.

But alternative demos can be cool too, like Borderline/3ad with its ingenious patterns or Psykolog/Panoramic with its utter weirdness.

What's most important is that you have fun doing what you do, that way a demo can never be "wasted on the scene" no matter what ppl think about it.

2004-08-05 12:19

Nightlord
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 131

what one expects from a demo is way too personal to discuss.

i can't help but enjoy good math coding or vic wizardry. and i enjoy good fresh artistic demos as well.

however i think if we run out of coders that try to beat eachother technically i am afraid we will see the end of the scene. that is my gut feeling

this is not to talk down to graphicians or musicians. but i think the existance of demos very much depends on coders. many groups faded away because their coders quit.

if the scene moves in such a direction that coding is no longer a challenge than i do not know how this will effect the scene itself.

and for the lcp demos:
pcfs was way too sweedish. it is hard to comment on it for me. there obviously is a lot of graphical effort put on this but i could not enjoy the thing

triad demo was i think nice and fresh. the only problem being the flow was so slow.

i like the afrika demo because of the technical demo feeling it gave me even if the effects were old. in fact it made me realize how much i miss technical demos and their wow factor as oswald calls it.

my favorite was ultragui with its two very fresh parts. i wish i could enjoy putermans music as much.

overall lcp was a bit dissapointing to me. plus there was no major diskmag release or anything. when the diskmags are not there and good demo reviews are forgotten i have only one hope left. floppy 2005... if it follows the same pattern than i am afraid we might have no serious scene left in 2006.

2004-08-05 14:03

Oswald

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5034

great, I lost a very long post due to that the forum was not working for a few minutes.

anyway.

Hollowman:

After you failed to make bumpmappers and tunnels, you decided that you will compensate your lousy coding skills with concept.

And after making a demo thats in top 10 on csdb (downvote it pleez).. yeah, I dare to say that this or that TRIAD or FLT demo is NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

I guess you only check the name of the group while forming your opinion.

Hamerkullen/Afrika has 10 year old parts period.

I strongly agree with nightlord:

" if it follows the same pattern than i am afraid we might have no serious scene left in 2006."

Id like to see the demos to evolve, but whats happening these years is to fall back to the NTSC scene quality.

2004-08-05 14:20

G-Fellow
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 103

Quote: "see it as proof of the scene evolving."

If a demo leaves me with the impression, that the creators have invested only 20-30% of what they are able to do into a demo, thats no evolving.

I dont need new or fancy gfx modes to be ammazed, Sander was the man who prooved to me that koala is enough, the picture counts.

I can be ammazed by a simple effect, but it has to offer visually more, or something completely new.

As of the pc demos today: they reached the level where everything can be done, so there was no other way than going artsy.

About 4x4, 4x4 can be nice if well done IMHO. Our demo in the works will have most of the effects in 4x4. Im curious to see what the reaction will be :). 50fps fullscreen effects are almost impossible hard to do.. especially new ones, this leads again to recycling imho.

G-Fellow: how on earth are you not bored to death of old effects, stuff seen for the 25th time ? A demo always should have a "wow" factor, be it for code, or gfx, or design, or music, or all. Something that I see for the 25th time will kill the wow factor for me.

what I really miss is, that I dont see the effort in demos as a few years back.

Going the art way has a similar reason as on PC. We instead of being capable to do everything technically are too close to the limits, and this is a new way instead of making impossible hard code. Lets call lame coding art. And lets view hard code from the artsy point, so we can claim we are better than coders with better skills than us.

Dont get me wrong, i like fresh and new ideas for a demo, but i dont need worldshocking or worldbreaking codes for a demo, to say thats the demo are good. But when a demo comes with a great story, grafix, music, worldshocking and breaking code thats ok with me :D

Iam no coder, only a musician, thats maybe the reason why i judge more the music than the demo in itself. But i see when a demo is totaly crap or not...

/G-Fellow

2004-08-05 15:39

No-XS

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 78

Why is it that, after one party with releases that one doesn't like, they have to say that the scene is dead? Just wait for next releases, to see something you like! Or better: make something you like yourself! :))

I'm pretty sure, in 1 week, there will be a very graphical demo from ASM (for the ones whining about too little graphics)

I'm pretty sure, also at ASM, there will be some very nice music releases (for the ones whining about low quality music...ooh..that was me too)

I'm pretty sure, in a few months, maybe at X2004, we will see some coders demo's (for the ones whining about no new code things)

Remember: Your opinion doesn't really count! The scene is dead for you, when you stop watching releases :))

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