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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Emulator checks are evil
Seriously. I'm stuck in NTSC-land, so all this cool PAL stuff you Euros code is inaccessible to me on real hardware. When you add emulator checks/blocks, you keep "casual" fans who enjoy seeing C64 demos, but don't care to import a PAL '64 and monitor and associated high-end transformers to turn 110V/60Hz into 220V/50Hz from ever seeing cool stuff. So PLEASE ignore the advice in the emulator bugs document and keep on making no-check demos.
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Quote: I know most demos only work on PAL. Thus, my comment/assumption that emulators are the only way for people in the NTSC part of the world to watch PAL demos without shelling out huge ammounts of money for hardware. (High-end transformers, shipping of equipment from Europe, etc)
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please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above.
All you need is a PAL VIC-II and a 17.734475 MHz clock from a PAL C64 (and VERY little soldering skills).
You can also simply try to get a PAL C64 without anything else (no PSU etc).
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:what, there are still new VIC effects? bring them on.
as WVL said nothing you could possibly find useful in demo coding so dont hold your breath.
Quote:I could maybe add a small emulator test to the next demo based on one of those effects :)
please do. every emu detector leads to a better emulation.
Quote:It would be much nicer, if the emulator tells "voluntary" about his settings, like framerate,sounddelay etc pp
If e.g. the hoxs+vice folks could come up with a new standard for that, these evil emulator checks would be much less evil.
wont happen,atleast in Hoxs64. the reason is the C64 doesnt do that and the only aim is to replicate the real thing. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 896 |
Quote: Quote:what, there are still new VIC effects? bring them on.
as WVL said nothing you could possibly find useful in demo coding so dont hold your breath.
Quote:I could maybe add a small emulator test to the next demo based on one of those effects :)
please do. every emu detector leads to a better emulation.
Quote:It would be much nicer, if the emulator tells "voluntary" about his settings, like framerate,sounddelay etc pp
If e.g. the hoxs+vice folks could come up with a new standard for that, these evil emulator checks would be much less evil.
wont happen,atleast in Hoxs64. the reason is the C64 doesnt do that and the only aim is to replicate the real thing.
So if i make my demo only work with AR plugged in, David will finally emulate that? ;) In the _REAL_ world, c64's have AR or FC, you know? ;)
Oswald : some missing VIC effects mainly have to do with the registers taking effect not exactly between cycles, but somewhere halfway after some pixels. I bet those will be nasty to emulate. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:{emulator feedback} won't happen, at least in Hoxs64. the reason is the C64 doesnt do that and the only aim is to replicate the real thing. Only if the emulator is EXACTLY emulating the real thing and the developers have nothing else to do... they could start making 'emulated cartridges' that read parameters from within the emulator and return them through actualy registers on any of the emulated ports. ;-)
But only when they're done... 100% emu has priority! |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
Quote: Quote:what, there are still new VIC effects? bring them on.
as WVL said nothing you could possibly find useful in demo coding so dont hold your breath.
Quote:I could maybe add a small emulator test to the next demo based on one of those effects :)
please do. every emu detector leads to a better emulation.
Quote:It would be much nicer, if the emulator tells "voluntary" about his settings, like framerate,sounddelay etc pp
If e.g. the hoxs+vice folks could come up with a new standard for that, these evil emulator checks would be much less evil.
wont happen,atleast in Hoxs64. the reason is the C64 doesnt do that and the only aim is to replicate the real thing.
The C64 also dont have sounddelay or stutters when windows like to swap stuff.
If you emulator-folks dont provide friendly, voluntary information, thats just hubris.
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote: So if i make my demo only work with AR plugged in, David will finally emulate that? ;) In the _REAL_ world, c64's have AR or FC, you know? ;)
Oswald : some missing VIC effects mainly have to do with the registers taking effect not exactly between cycles, but somewhere halfway after some pixels. I bet those will be nasty to emulate.
in reality there are many more possibilities than AR or FC. if it was only a matter of AR and FC i think it would have been already emulated in Hoxs64.
about the VIC effects occuring between cycles afaik they are emulated correctly in Hoxs64 to the best of the knowledge of David. for instance Pinball Dreams required a shift of a VIC register delay of 2 pixels (1 quarter of a clock cycle).
Quote:Only if the emulator is EXACTLY emulating the real thing and the developers have nothing else to do...
But only when they're done... 100% emu has priority!
i doubt that any emu will ever reach the absolute accuracy.
edit:
Quote:The C64 also dont have sounddelay or stutters when windows like to swap stuff.
The sound delay in a correctly written emulator is kept to a minimum and hardly observable. if your emu stutters when your windows swaps stuff its not a fault of the emulator. the are multiple solutions to the problem including closing any other interfering apps,assigning high priority to the "emu.exe" process in your task manager or just expanding memory in your PC and disabling the swap file. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:i doubt that any emu will ever reach the absolute accuracy. In theory or practice?
If the quirks aren't detectable by any routine, it's good enough for me, even if in theory there might be a difference with the hardware.
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 896 |
Quote: in reality there are many more possibilities than AR or FC. if it was only a matter of AR and FC i think it would have been already emulated in Hoxs64.
about the VIC effects occuring between cycles afaik they are emulated correctly in Hoxs64 to the best of the knowledge of David. for instance Pinball Dreams required a shift of a VIC register delay of 2 pixels (1 quarter of a clock cycle).
Quote:Only if the emulator is EXACTLY emulating the real thing and the developers have nothing else to do...
But only when they're done... 100% emu has priority!
i doubt that any emu will ever reach the absolute accuracy.
edit:
Quote:The C64 also dont have sounddelay or stutters when windows like to swap stuff.
The sound delay in a correctly written emulator is kept to a minimum and hardly observable. if your emu stutters when your windows swaps stuff its not a fault of the emulator. the are multiple solutions to the problem including closing any other interfering apps,assigning high priority to the "emu.exe" process in your task manager or just expanding memory in your PC and disabling the swap file.
LoL! Didnt know I already forced David to change the emulation :D Is it the writes to $d01c in the display-area? |
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assiduous
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2007
Posts: 343 |
Quote:In theory or practice?
If the quirks aren't detectable by any routine, it's good enough for me, even if in theory there might be a difference with the hardware.
a perfect emulator would display EVERY software released for the C64 pixel exact. if it doesnt then the probability is high that it can be detected by a clever ASM routine. such emulator doesnt exist and i doubt it will ever exist as its plain impossible to test all C64 software in the existence. even if it could be done some details are so tiny it takes a good eye to spot them,many would be overlooked. you must note that several flaws of the emulation havent been exploited yet,creative coders going beyond the standards are likely to stumble upon them.
Quote:LoL! Didnt know I already forced David to change the emulation :D Is it the writes to $d01c in the display-area?
correct |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 896 |
Just to show that neither Hoxs nor Vice are anywhere close :
Real Thang, Vice or Hoxs?
This will discriminate nicely between a real machine, hoxs 1.0.5.19 and vice 1.22.
You see how easy it is to tell what is what.
Anyway, since the trend seems to be to exclude emulators from running the demos (in the hope that the authors will improve them), I'm seriously thinking to exclude Hoxs to run my next demo, simply by requiring an Action Replay to run.
OOPSIE :D apparently new VIC's seem to behave the same way as Hoxs, but I have no way to test a new VIC.. Anyway, old CMOS VIC should be the standard ;) Since HOXS doesnt emulate new VIC, as there are no grey dots. |
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