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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-14 19:13

White Flame

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136

Quote: Holla,

nice to see that Kim didn't read anything here or tried to understand it.
The ongoing discussions that creeps into the ACTUAL topic - the reliability and credibility of csdb - are completely to DISMISS.

Concentrate - after 150 posts - on the solution, dammit.

l8r

Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC

Solution? Simple.

CSDb simply needs to post & follow requests from copyright holders to remove stuff. If there's no actual request, nothing gets removed. PTV should follow that policy and say "no links to our game", "only mods of our game with added benefits can be allowed", etc, instead of this "picking favorites subjectively as they see them" crap. Everybody should be able to see PTV's request logged somewhere (as well as letters from other software companies that request CSDb to remove something), so they can read exactly what PTV requested that CSDb do, not just have PTV go and fiddle around with CSDb directly because MacGyver happens to have admin access as well.

A lot of people spent a lot of time creating this database, and did it under the understanding and trust that people aren't just going to monkey around with the data for personal reasons. If they can see what was requested by the legal owners, and know that CSDb is following that request, then things are in line and understandable. If they see entries that they created all of a sudden deleted or changed by somebody who doesn't like it (the definition of censorship), of course they'll be up in arms.

If you put your own work on a public resource, it's 100% BS to alter or use admin privileges on that public resource to cater to your own "baby" on there. This applies to snooping at anonymous votes. This is a matter of common ethics and being able to responsibly handle something that holds public opinion (which can legitimately be positive or negative towards you personally), and I don't think is something that rules can cover. Whoever is in charge needs to be able to maintain the system for the sake of the system, not for the little subset of content that applies to them.

2005-04-14 21:38

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1085

I hope Perff reads White Flame's post.

Very well put, dude.

Burglar/SCS*TRC

2005-04-14 21:40

CyberBrain
Administrator

Posts: 392

C64 USERS AGAINST COPYRIGHT!! ;)

Hi guys! Sorry, i haven't read this till now. Goddamn, you guys have been busy!

I'm also annoyed by the fact that these links has been removed.
(as i allways am when someone wants something removed!)

But first...

About us making a special case out of protovision games by disallowing their games and allowing all other games: If a software company like f.e. UBI-soft or CodeMasters (or whatever) told us to remove some links in CDSb, we would definately have to do it. Or else we would risk getting our asses sued. But thankfully we haven't got any (lame) requests like that. I'm just saying this to show there is no special treatment of protovision - we would remove download-links from other companies if they ordered us to.

There is also no doubt that to protect ourselves (much in the same manner scene.org has to protect itself from fucked up legal proceedings at the moment), we have to remove download-links if the copyright-holder of the release asks us to do it. This is not just some theoritical nonsense that's totally unlikely to happen to a C64-site - it has infact happened to some C64-sites not long ago.
(NOTE: we don't have to remove the important information, just the download-link - it's not illegal to have information about cracks, so it's not as bad as it sounds. Please rejoice. NOW!!)

These 2 points should be clear to all, i hope.

Now that this has been said...

Sorry, i've only read this tread quickly. Good (and bad) arguments from both sides. As far as i've understood this is the problem:

PROBLEM: We have deleted some download-links to protovision stuff and MacGyver is a member of protovision and a CSDb-trusteduser at the same time.

This means that he can remove download-links from cracks of his own companys games. Is this fair?

YES:
- Protovision is a major software-house and would loose profit on it (but they don't care about profit.. Hmm..)
- Protovision could sue us if they wanted. (tho, in reality they probably won't do that)
- We wouldn't want to destroy one of the last major commercial software coorporations on the C64. It's nice to have atleast one softwarehouse still alive on the on the C64, and we shouldn't ruin it for them.

NO:
- This is a scene database, and "data wants to be free". Censorship of C64-stuff sucks.
- The scene and software-houses are enemies, so we shouldn't care about their wishes.
- Protovision guys have been crackers themselves.
- An admin/trusteduser should weigh the scene higher than a commercial firm.

BUT THE MAIN PROBLEM IS:
MacGyver is trusted-user of the *scene* database, and at the same time he weights the protovision-firms interests higher than the scene. This is a conflict, when the scene and protovision has got contradicting interests.

Is this correctly understood? It's a problem ONLY because MacGyver is a trusted user?
If he was not a trusted user, and told perff to remove the links, and perff did that, there would be no problem?

We will try to handle this in a civilized way, by talking to protovision about it and try to figure something out. It is a shame if CSDb has to be censored like this.

As i think many of you guys are, i'm kind of split into 2 camps - i don't want C64-stuff to be censored, and i don't want protovision to stop doing what they're doing.

Then ofcause there is the misuse of the voting system.. That he can see the votes is ok, but that he acts on the votes for himself is not ok!
What is going to happen to MacGyvers status as "trusted user" here on CSDb, will have to be discussed aswell.

2005-04-14 21:52

MacGyver
Account closed

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149

Just some side facts for those who didn't know:

Up to now I submitted over 1.300 entries to this very database, making me overall submitter No. 3, and Non-NoName-submitter No. 1. I also suggested many many features for CSDb which you happily use today.

So stop this "A lot of people put a lot of effort in building this database" crap cause you don't know what you're takin' 'bout.

2005-04-14 22:29

Tch
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512

@MacGuyver: (most of) your actions deserve respect!
Don´t let your words destroy it all!!

2005-04-14 22:34

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

Quote: Just some side facts for those who didn't know:

Up to now I submitted over 1.300 entries to this very database, making me overall submitter No. 3, and Non-NoName-submitter No. 1. I also suggested many many features for CSDb which you happily use today.

So stop this "A lot of people put a lot of effort in building this database" crap cause you don't know what you're takin' 'bout.

<speechless>

Oh no wait, I can't be speechless, as I'm the #1 poster here on this forum, which gives me the right to get medieval on your ass.

Now, I can understand you trying to 'protect' Protovision, I even respect you for it, but why don't you at least apologize for abusing your power, especially considering the anonymous voting situation, instead of transforming yourself into the most hated scener of this century?

As for your "alpha male" talk, what would happen if people really took offence to your words, said "screw it" and not only stopped submitting new data, but also removed the data they already submitted in the past?

CSDB is a good thing, a very good thing, and the NoName dudes will forever be thanked for it, but it's nothing without its users, and you're just one of them.

If you really feel different just say so, and I will be the first one to remove all the stuff I maintain, starting with the Focus demos, and make sure it doesn't get entered again. I also will mobilize other people to do the same.

Remember: you can't beat the scene, it's bigger than all of us.

2005-04-14 22:35

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

CyberBrain: Thanks for taking the time to give some civil conversation. Hopefully with your constructive input we will find an outcome that is satisfactory for all parties involved. In regards to changes made. I agree with White Flame, there should be a section which shows the correspondance of PTV and CSDB. Not just MacGyver running around changing things (including access private folders on FTP sites!). It should be NoName staff ONLY who do these type of changes. MacGyver is not _neutral_ in this matter and it is only common sense that his access be modified so he cannot do this in the future (as No Name can do it).

It is a real state of affair when MacGyver deleted ICE GUYS version by SUCCESS&TRC yet left the full game download from SINGULAR still available. BOTH entries could have co-existed. This once more shows he is not _neutral_ and should have his access to admin here modified. No doubt he has done some work here (like everyone has), but we need a common sense approach to this and neutral parties involved. White Flame's idea of showing the requests from individuals requesting download links is a good one.

Regarding TRANSPARENT votes. They should not be anonymous. We should be able to see who does it. STILL, this doesn't justify MacGyver abusing his "trusted priviledges". For myself, I voted him only one point for Public Relations because of the actions taken by him modifying people's entries and not showing normal courtesy and contacting the entry owners to advise them of the needed modification. In my opinion this is very poor PR, maybe MacGyver will learn from this.

2005-04-14 22:42

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11352

"Is this correctly understood? It's a problem ONLY because MacGyver is a trusted user?
If he was not a trusted user, and told perff to remove the links, and perff did that, there would be no problem?"

thats pretty much the point. the only way to get back your credibility is to 1) put up some more precise rulez on what should be here and what not and if or when something will get removed or not and 2) find someone else to do the "trusted user" job, the current one appearently isnt trusted at all.

2005-04-15 00:35

Hoild

Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 29

So cynical.. this whole discussion turned into an indignity on the group of people trying to keep another c-64 tradition alive - classic videogames.

Tracing a supposed-to-be anonymous vote is unethical.
-There might be some good intent behind it, though - MacGyver contacted those downvoting him, and inquired about their reasons. Perhaps to improve, by listening to their feedback - only he could tell His reasons, but would he, surrounded by this extreme ragging?

Pretty early, though, discussion detoriated into Crackerz ("=real scene", "us") Vs. PTV ("commercial stuff", "them").
And regardless to the fact, the number of people directly or indirectly affected by c-64 Sw 'piracy' measures but a few hundred, perhaps one or two thousand. And of the most involved, there are but a handful, who are mostly knowing each other, even IRL.

Are you people pissed about each other?
-Do you want to piss everyone else?

Milo, why did you trace the vote without asking?
All the "crackerz" -- why do you want to piss us, hobby game developers? Don't you see, we are INSULTED by working on a non-profit game for years, just to have you "cracktro"-ing and "First Releasing" it under your name?
And even then, we are only taking the insult at all because we've been in contact with you for so long, and what you do does matter for us?!
-How about expanding this "us" for all of us?
Just a few more post by certain VERY involved people would allow for solving this perfidy.. some admitting of faults.. granting some forgiveness.. settling solid rules for the future of CSDb...

But then, this post will be fuel for further accusations, indeed I am writing this as a first poster (a "sin") and someone who partnered with PROTOVISION, who had his game published by them. I am, obviously, uber-subjective on this topic. Also, siding with PTV, I must be or will be yet-another-relative of MacGyver.

May my irony reveal your cynicism,

Hoild of UNC

2005-04-15 00:48

Jazzcat

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044

Hoild:
Unfortunately you are missing the point here.

"MacGyver contacted those downvoting him, and inquired about their reasons. Perhaps to improve, by listening to their feedback - only he could tell His reasons, but would he, surrounded by this extreme ragging?"

There is no excuse for this, it is a blatant misuse of administration control and should not be allowed! He doesn't need to offer any excuses as none would be accepted.

"All the "crackerz" -- why do you want to piss us, hobby game developers?"

Again, do we have to discuss the philosophy of cracking? This is an age-old topic that has been discussed many times before. If you haven't learnt about it by now I suggest you do some more reading about it. It is no personal attack at developing groups, it is more a group respects the game at some level and honours it in the tradition that they are part of (the cracking scene). It doesn't harm the sales of the game in 2005, serious people will still purchase the game (like myself) regardless if there is a crack. Anyway, this has been discussed to death and your covering very old ground. Please get back to the original point here.

"-How about expanding this "us" for all of us?"

We want to expand, but MacGyver only wants what he wants with the PTV games, as I've said before, surely ORIGINALS, IDE-fixes AND cracks can co-exist in this database.
Again, ICE GUYS = he deleted the SCS&TRC crack but left the Singular version online (IDE-fix). They should co-exist!!

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