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2023-12-22 18:03

Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496

Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal

Dear fellow sceners,

This is an attempt to get more understanding among, and for, C64 demoscene pixel artists. It’s not written to limit anyone, but a prayer for more transparency.

Read the document here: ->Graphics on C64 demoscene: Guide of Ethics – a Proposal<-

We tried to give define and value different processes. Which is a result of discussion, where we saw mutual grounds and felt the need to write these down.
We will update the document periodically, when enough input has been gathered and sorted out.

We’d really love to hear your thoughts on the subjects in the document.
Please post them in this thread.

(Personally I will not always fully comply to these guidelines myself, but I will continue to be transparant about it. However, I do agree with the values communicated in this document.)

... 137 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2023-12-23 13:28

F7sus4

Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 117

Quoting Burglar

1) I think this is trying to solve a non-existant problem. You are making it sound like all major graphics compo's are infested with dishonest wiring lowlives stealing all trophies away.

If that was the case, there would be nothing to debate, and no attempt in making "anti-cheat" measures would even be considered.

Quoting Burglar

4) We can trust our fellow sceners to do the right thing, there has been no cheating in major compos in recent years.

It's a non-falsifiable claim. We can't either prove or disprove it, unfortunately.

Quoting LMan

Also workstages prove nothing, since they can be easily faked! That point is often overlooked.

They can, but that would be an effort that would potentially make any technological shortcuts related to AI/conversion almost redundant (or at least burdensome enough), solely because of the amount of work required to manually adjust each stage to make it look trustworthy. The workstage requirement seems fair in my opinion, and taking a snapshot here and there on the way doesn't harm the process. It's quite established standard anyway.

2023-12-23 14:34

Peacemaker

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275

Quote: Quoting Burglar
1) I think this is trying to solve a non-existant problem. You are making it sound like all major graphics compo's are infested with dishonest wiring lowlives stealing all trophies away.

If that was the case, there would be nothing to debate, and no attempt in making "anti-cheat" measures would even be considered.

Quoting Burglar
4) We can trust our fellow sceners to do the right thing, there has been no cheating in major compos in recent years.

It's a non-falsifiable claim. We can't either prove or disprove it, unfortunately.

Quoting LMan
Also workstages prove nothing, since they can be easily faked! That point is often overlooked.

They can, but that would be an effort that would potentially make any technological shortcuts related to AI/conversion almost redundant (or at least burdensome enough), solely because of the amount of work required to manually adjust each stage to make it look trustworthy. The workstage requirement seems fair in my opinion, and taking a snapshot here and there on the way doesn't harm the process. It's quite established standard anyway.

You seem to have missed the wired gfx with a perfect workstage at the AI compo, or? and i doubt this faking has taken long. its a easy task to be honest.

2023-12-23 15:51

Monte Carlos

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 359

Quote: Embracing the Unpredictable Magic

Pixel art, the sheer joy it brings! Each square, a pixel, a piece of a magical puzzle. With limited colors come infinite possibilities, opening doors to a multi-level journey in art.

Yet, a demand for a solitary pilgrimage from idea to completion feels strange, especially when compared to the free-spirited ethos of demos. The demo scene thrives on real-time trickery, resisting the need for explanations. Pixel art isn't about conformity; it's about the unexpected thrill of creation in the moment.

Whether painting freely, using reference images, blending elements from our world, or incorporating AI-generated ideas, the canvas is limitless within its constraints. The Commodore 64 platform may not hold the assets found in the real world, and there's nothing wrong with importing video or stock footage to enhance creations.

Enter AI, not to steal the show but as a creative partner, suggesting and enhancing our artistic waltz. Will AI take over? No, it's a co-pilot, enhancing the human mind, where emotions are the strokes that color our canvas.

Pixel art's future isn't surrendering to AI; it could embrace it, working together as captains with AI as our copilot. However, automated pipelines that claim perfection raise suspicion. True art involves the unpredictability of creation, not a rigid, unchanged pixel through multiple stages.

Whether it's the Commodore 64 or anything else, art is about freedom. No suffocating rules.

For many old-timers, the epic moments were recreating something from famous art or images. Is that all gone now? Is it illegal? Talent, recreating Vangelis' portrait and more from reference images—is that a crime? The methods are unclear, but is it wrong?

No matter what one expresses, asserts, or shares openly within our community, there seems to be a tendency for someone to disapprove or dissent, leading to internal chaos for the individual who dared to speak. Let us foster an environment of openness and mutual acceptance. The escalating conflicts within our community are becoming overwhelming, and it's time for a more harmonious and understanding approach.

In the end, amidst the debates and complexities, let's not lose sight of why we embarked on this creative journey. Pixel art, demos, and the Commodore 64 are not just about perfection or conformity. They're about the sheer joy of creation, the thrill of pushing boundaries, and the magic that unfolds when passionate minds come together.

Let's revel in the freedom to express, explore, and compete—not as adversaries but as companions in this creative odyssey. In the pixelated realms and beyond, let's celebrate the camaraderie that arises from shared enthusiasm.

So, here's to late nights of coding, to spontaneous strokes of the pixel brush, to the sound of demos playing on repeat, and to the friendships that transcend pixels and screens. Let's venture beyond our comfort zones, compete in new arenas, and create memories that echo with the laughter of kindred spirits.

In the grand tapestry of the demo scene, may the threads of creativity, friendship, and adventure weave together seamlessly. Let's cherish the thrill of the journey, the beauty of imperfections, and the boundless joy of creating alongside the most fantastic, creative friends. Here's to having a blast—on and off the screen—because in the end, it's the shared moments of fun and creativity that make this journey truly extraordinary.

Very great document - I can not sign it, I do not want to sign it- I want a raw, freee andlimitless scene and everything goes... that is why this scene still blossoms, why try to kill it?

your PAL

Is this the longest post in this forum???

2023-12-23 16:02

Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452

The gist of the proposal seems to be "how to prove that a production is an original work" now that we've got all these new toys. I may digress a bit, so please disregard all this if irrelevant to the subject.

I applaud the concept of transparency in everything, and that pretty much solves the issue in my opinion.

However, I have doubts with all of the ownership right aspects of the proposal, and the concept of originality. There are plenty of examples in many industries about how well ownership works and how it does not work after the product is published or sold.

Regarding AI: In programming, the AI assistants are a similar development step to what a compiler is to assembler programming. They make repeated tasks easier, and can act like a "smart function library", if you wish. Another form of AI are the various solvers and optimizers, they're different and often task specific.

Graphics format conversion tools traditionally have been in the solver/optimizer category, not in the generator category. Is hand pixeling a generating act, or a solving act or neither? I do not know.

At the moment generative AI models are trained with huge sets of data and the learning part is very expensive, and the users are not in control of that. Also, all input images or data must have some textual description of what is in the image, and there must be an attached language model. That is how the model can generate a house, when we ask for an image of a house. So, when we use an LLM, is the generated product the art or is it the prompt description the art or neither?

Compare for instance: I write assembler code to draw some sprites on screen and VIC does all the work. I write a GPU shader but the GPU does all the work. I set the prompt description and the LLM does all the work. Is there a difference?

I think the difference is that I as a programmer or musician am trained with a lot of what other people have done, but in case of the LLM, the LLM is trained with a lot of what other people have done. So, is writing a prompt more like instructing a programmer than being a programmer? is writing a prompt like instructing an artist instead of being an artist?

How to get over it? We can train our own models and in my opinion and that is when AI art will become "original" and "personalized". It'll be a tool like a brush, and we can train the models with our own drawings or music and it'll generate stuff within that context. Is this better? I do not know. It just will be. Some great artists had assistants that took care of the details after they set up the sketch and broad strokes. Perhaps the AI can be like assistant to an architect or a sculptor.

2023-12-23 16:46

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954

Quoting Mixer

How to get over it? We can train our own models and in my opinion and that is when AI art will become "original" and "personalized". It'll be a tool like a brush, and we can train the models with our own drawings or music and it'll generate stuff within that context. Is this better? I do not know. It just will be. Some great artists had assistants that took care of the details after they set up the sketch and broad strokes. Perhaps the AI can be like assistant to an architect or a sculptor.

Luckily, AI engines are being fed with junkfood and other crap, because there's so much of that in this world. It's inevitably becoming what people want it to be, a crap engine.

Why would we want to have it generate our own personal niche style? Or why would we worry about a crap engine at all?

2023-12-23 16:59

Mixer

Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452

Quote: Quoting Mixer

How to get over it? We can train our own models and in my opinion and that is when AI art will become "original" and "personalized". It'll be a tool like a brush, and we can train the models with our own drawings or music and it'll generate stuff within that context. Is this better? I do not know. It just will be. Some great artists had assistants that took care of the details after they set up the sketch and broad strokes. Perhaps the AI can be like assistant to an architect or a sculptor.

Luckily, AI engines are being fed with junkfood and other crap, because there's so much of that in this world. It's inevitably becoming what people want it to be, a crap engine.

Why would we want to have it generate our own personal niche style? Or why would we worry about a crap engine at all?

Well, we do not have to, but it'll happen any way. LLM's are at a moment SISO systems like all computer expert systems. Shit In, Shit Out. Unless they've been shown what pre-Amiga 80's brutalism is as an art style, they can't do stuff like it.

2023-12-23 17:00

MaD ][

Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 23

Quote: Good idea, but I think it is a very long - well actually too long in my opinion - text. Maybe it could be condensed down to the essentials like: "credit all source material, mention use of AI" (yes, this is very minimalist).

what LDX#40 said, couldn't strip to the bone better than this... PERIOD!
Also posts from PAL, Burglar, LMan and Nim suits me well 100%
Can't stand to those DRAMA anymore, our time should be spent doing better things... if someone has doubts about anything should feel free to express it, if the other party couldn't prove/motivate should be considered guilty, isn't it that difficult? "prove it, or it didn't happen", anyone recalls this simple rule?... BTW: giving proper credit or mentioning use of AI (or whatever can show up in the future) is the most ethical thing an artist must state very clearly.. by my side I do not have any complaint if a piece of code, gf or msx has been used as reference or ripped off entirely, just DO NOT CLAIM IS YOUR OWN ORIGINAL WORK... problem solved..
I simply won't sing this even if I agree with (almost) everything written on it... just use common sense anyway...

2023-12-23 17:06

Hein

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954

Quoting Mixer

Well, we do not have to, but it'll happen any way. LLM's are at a moment SISO systems like all computer expert systems. Shit In, Shit Out. Unless they've been shown what pre-Amiga 80's brutalism is as an art style, they can't do stuff like it.

Right, it does seem just a few steps away from assimilating pixel art. Maybe the ones that signed the manifesto should act on that and start hiding their art to protect it from being translated into algorithms that we can use for graphics compos. ;)

2023-12-23 17:16

Ax!s

Registered: Apr 2020
Posts: 1

I'm coming out of my woods to give my opinion to 5 cc.

I agree with PAL.

For me, art has many forms. You can make photo collages, paper drawings or with drawing software, integrate elements and stage with software like gimp, photoshop, etc. All media and software are tools at our disposal.

When we talk about copyright it makes me smile given the number of cracks, tributes, etc. that there are on the site without real credit the real authors. Why double standards? Maybe I'll ask my kid to sign "Based on Bob Kane" when he draws Batman. Popular art has always been nourished by popular culture.

We talk about AI in graphics but it also applies to code and music. Why stigmatize only graphic designers? Because certainly music and code are less visual and more complicated to control.

Where we perhaps need common rules is for competitions with prizes but in all areas then (GFX, Music and code).
If it's a little competition for fun, I don't see the point.

Also in our time with the air of the rating with its stars (or commodore sign), this may also be part of the problem.

Conclusion: Letting people do their good and less good things is the wealth of our community. Anyway, I think you're adult enough to sort it out for yourself.

I'm going back to my woods...

2023-12-23 17:17

Carrion

Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 317

What follows below is a post I wrote for Vanglis demo discussion but decided then to not post it.
Today IMO it fits here perfectly so let me share few of my thoughts. It looks like most of my thoughts copy Nim's, Pal's and mostly Burglar's opinion, but anyway. Here goes:

---

OK I read that shit through and through. Here are few of my thoughts:

I think my presentation at X (I promiss to mention it for last time) was very important to me. I hoped it is also important for the audience. I explaind how I do things and why I do it this way, so no-one can ever again call me a cheater (one guy at Transmission's presentation put words chetaing and Carrion in one sentence and it hurts me till this day and it felt bad!)

But the main goal of my presentation at X was a messege and question to pixel art community. Is it ok we share workstages, source files, references, etc etc. And you know what? Nobody actually responded to it. Nobody cared. And.... after the months of thinking, I think it's fine. Who am I to force anyone to confess his techniques, references, workstages. And I understood that it's not really my business and people actually dont care about it either. The MOST important part is, and I repeat that every time, to have fun doing it and joy of sharing your works with C64 friends. That's it! Maybe the people who convert or wire have fun with it? Who am I to take this fun from them? Do you feel being like a this kind of moderator of what schould be done on demoscene or posted on CSDB or what should be created on C64?
C64 demoscene is not a school of art and we are not professional artists like you. (edit: it was directed to one person) We Have a HOBBY here! And ofcoz you gonna respond that all you demand is workstages for this paticular case. But with thread like this (edit: Vangelis) the only thing you achieve is a witchhunt and looking for drama.

I know good C64 art wnen I see it. And I can appreciate it when I see it. I appreciate Talent's talent a lot. His skills are not from this earth. I love Mirage and Mermaid, Joe, I like Duce, Veto, Sulevi, and many, many others. I dont have to like all of the C64 gfx posted here. I simply dont vote and dont comment - it's that simple. I used to call them lamers but again, who am I to judge? Who are you to judge? I have my opinions about why you started this crusade but it will be too rude to write it here in public. (edit: I think Fungus summed it nicely)

[...]

For me the dicsusion is over. I feel devasted after all I read here. I also feel frustrated bacause I don't know what will happen next. (edit: now I know as this thread hapened) Please don't take fun and joy from us !
There's place for any kind of demoscene activity either wired ninja or another hand pixeled cat. Let people enjoy and judge, or... or close CSDB and keep it only for real art elite!

----

That was my post one week ago. It more or less tells what I want to say here today. I would not sign anything like this document you proposed. My joy of pixeling at this moment flies away, after last threads here. Hop it will come back soon.