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2024-10-07 19:19

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

What is PETSCII - A guide for compo orgas

Lately, We've seen several cases of releases that don't adhere to PETSCII standard being entered into compos. Examples are: 11th place at Revision 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "U-MOD3L", 4th place at Deadline 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "Depth Logo with Obligatory Skull & Blood" and 2nd place at Xenium 2024 ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII compo called "Fantastic 4 Cracking Group logo".

The first mentioned example uses a custom character set instead of standard PETSCII. The second and third mentioned examples use multiple background colors and a custom combination of both "upper" and "lower" PETSCII character sets which is not possible in standard PETSCII.

Several PETSCII editors/paint programs out there allow for this faux/"fantasy" modes by untying the newcomer authors from original hardware restrictions. Some of them churn out C64 executables that utilize either normal character mode but with custom character set defined and written along with the displayer, ECM mode again with custom character set being written in the prg file, or downright hires bitmap mode (which is way out of even most lenient definition of "textmode graphics"). This furtherly confuses both newcomer authors and compo orgas because it leaves them under false impression that the file is compliant with standard PETSCII.

The shortest possible definition of PETSCII would be: if a picture can be recreated by using BASIC to print it on the screen (thx Groepaz) then it's a PETSCII. Or, if you can recreate it with no commands whatsoever (other than 2 POKEs for border/paper colors), by physically using cursor keys and the rest of the C64 keyboard Raquel Meyers style then it's a PETSCII for sure. I know compo orgas can't go writing BASIC programs or playing around with a real C64. Therefore I've attached a precise PETSCII specification at the bottom of this text. The origin of this specification is Shine's PETSCII World Discord server and the author is wbochar (a PETSCII artist and coder/maintainer of Petmate). Now, I'm aware that orgas can't reprint all this text when organizing a compo, but if they read and understand it, I'm sure they can distill the gist of it into something shorter that fits their needs. As long as they themselves are aware of the precise definition. Additionally, if future orgas are not sure about a specific entry, they can always contact Shine's PETSCII World on Discord or X, as the place is inhabited by nice people ready to help.

=======================================================================

Single Frame 'standard' PETSCII in PRG format

1. Uses built in character rom, UPPER or LOWER case (no mixing or flipping between cases).
2. No relocating ROM's, soft/custom roms, or copied ROM's.
3. petscii/data in standard (for that machine) screen and color memory area (if there is a color area)
4. Frame size is the default character editor dimensions for that platform (c64: 40x25 chars)
5. static background and border color (if that machine has that)
6. loops showing the picture (ie "jmp *")
7. No sprites, music, splits. rasterbars or other code manipulating the system. If you have to clarify something else thats legal, then assume No.
8. Auto starts from basic

So basically the PRG (program) on c64 just loads the screen chars and colors, sets the background, border and "pauses/loops" showing the pic.
Most of the time, I mean 99% we are talking about a c64 showing the petscii.
But technically, there are few platforms out there with their own distinct PETSCII/Colors/Frame implementations.
examples:
c64: 40x25 chars, 16 colors, background and border color.
PetX032: 40x25 or 80x25 chars, Mono Color (green/White), black background and no border color. There are multiple Char roms available for various pet versions..
vic20: 22x23 chars, Color is Fluid.., border 8 colors, background can have 16. The char roms are closer to the Pet than the c64
c128, c16... all have different color, screen size and rom differences..
So when you enter a compo or post a 'PETSCII' online.. we are usually talking about c64 40x25 chars.
If the compo has specific rules like "C64 Micro PETSCII 16x16 Mono Color" then override the values in the list above with the compo values.
Which means I can put 16 x 16 anywhere on the 40x25 screen with one color and choose another color for the Background, Border.
Any messing with the underlying char ROM's makes this a highres image that resembles a PETSCII, but is not a PETSCII.
The whole fun of this, is to work within the confines of PETSCII.
It's great to make art however you want to do it.. but if you want to call it a PETSCII image.. then those are the rules/guidelines.
There are many other formats that are PETSCII.. Wide and Long that scroll, animations, gfx demos. They all use the default charset/colors for that platform.

... 67 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-10-08 08:14

Dr. TerrorZ

Registered: Oct 2013
Posts: 17

I consider PETSCII as a screen mode, the default C64 text environment. The rules in the first post then tell what's traditionally allowed/not allowed in "a PETSCII".

Hires is another screen mode. Multicolor is another screen mode. ECM is another screenmode. No matter if these are also somehow charmodes.

My biggest confusion comes from the multicolor textmode, because that can be achieved with a few POKEs and fulfills most requirements.

In the past I've tended to accept multicolor charmodes as some kind of fringe PETSCII, but I guess they also fail this "it's not the default screen mode" test.

2024-10-08 09:33

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

It’s similar with ECM PETSCII. It deserves a new category. And a definition. Imho, these pics should use the first 64 chars from the ROM charset. But this is another subject, as all of these should not be allowed in a PETSCII compo in the first place.

@Burglar
Well, this sounds like a pretty elegant solution. Orgas behold!

P.S. As for invalid entry at this years’ Deadline - this is by far the lamest orga performance. The entry preview PNG has faux CRT RGB splits and it seems that PRG wasn’t even delivered, the download on scene.org is a .pscii flie. They didn’t mind this. I tried to warn them to take counsel on the entry in realtime during the show through their Discord, got quickly dismissed with “orgas know what they are doing”.

2024-10-08 11:13

jmin

Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 10

Anybody called for a EU regulation yet?

All joking aside, but I do feel that you're mixing different topics here and thus might (unintentionally) cross the line to boring gatekeeping.

I've had my fair share of "That's not PETSCII!" comments/PMs - even for a pic not tagged as PETSCII :D - and sure, using PETSCII Editor's export function has lead to some confusion as the charset is always copied here, but why not try helping those three newbies out instead of slamming down a "pure PETSCII only"-hammer on everyone. PETSCII is fun, MC PETSCII is ugly but fun, ECM PETSCII is challenging, but fun. Haven't done a PETSCII+rastabars or a PETSCII+sprites yet, but I'm sure it's fun too and I do wish that there are compos for each of those.

Clearer compo rules: yes, but keep them under 12 pages, please.
Better QA for compo entries: yes, but what about all the drama we're gonna miss out on?
Better tagging: yes, but that's not gonna happen here on CSDb, right?

Lastly, thanks for bringing this discussion onto various platforms instead of keeping it in a limited/locked-up group only ;-)

2024-10-08 11:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

4gentE: This has nothing to do with orga ignorance, but rather with how lenient or strict any platform-specific rules (if they even exist) are interpreted.

It's all quite arbitrary anyways, and as for Deadline, in a multi-platform compo called "text mode", the entries were perfectly within the published (and yes, rather lenient regarding PETSCII) compo rules. Thus, there was no basis for disqualification.

That said, this kind of rule detail is always subject to change from party to party.

2024-10-08 15:42

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Krill:
I’m looking for constructive suggestions here.
I understand what you said, but don’t understand where is it going?
Are you saying that everything is allright and nothing should be done?

About ignorance. The guy who made that #2 Xenium faux PETSCII entry felt encouraged enough to insult me on Pouet. I warned Darya about the dubious entry, suggested they take counsel during the show. Dismissed. Venom makes fun of this on Pouet. Why did they even accept something that was not .prg and not .d64 as PETSCII? How would you call this if not ignorance? Dontgiveafuckery perhaps? Not knowing something is not a disgrace. Not wanting to learn and lashing out at ones who know and try to teach you is a disgrace. For example, psenough did not know the exact PETSCII specs, so he asked. Now he knows. This is and should be normal, rational behaviour.

We need specs everyone understands. Letting it all go for anybody to do whatever he/she wants (and out of ignorance, not mischief mind you) and not trying to educate is a disaster. What goes next? And why? They don’t let MP3s in “tracked music” compos do they?

@jmin:
Why not trying to help the newbies out?
That’s exactly what I’m trying to do. Help the newbies out. Tools that hide the facts from them and make them “cheat” are not helping them. They are adding to confusion and are putting them in “entitled defense” mode. Like that guy who was insistent that original PET charset was in fact also present in C64 ROM, and that he was the first in history to discover it. Do you think, if he continued with this hobby, he will be very happy that a sneaky tool made him say that?
Like I mentioned somewhere, I’m willing to show any of them how to code the PETSCII displayer themselves because it’s embarassingly trivial as we all know. I don’t think usage of instant tools that do things user does not understand under the hood is really what this hobby is about in the long(er) run.
Arrogant or ignorant orgas are also doing these newbies a disservice.

2024-10-08 17:21

jmin

Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 10

@4gentE: Gotcha. A "Check your PETSCII submission"-tool would indeed be helpfull for both, orgas and graphicians and most likely would solve a lot of confusion, stress and frustration and at the same time might even lower the barrier for folks starting out. Not sure though if .png should be the input format; most tools do offer a more "native" export format that could be used while highlighting the fact that PETSCII isn't pixels but just text typed out in the machine's build-in charset - IMHO plain, MC and ECM PETSCII should still be supported though ;-)

Further, coding a "PETSCII displayer [...] because it’s embarassingly trivial" is not that trivial if you have no connection to coding at all (and not everyone's goal either; i don't see me (yet) coding a hires viewer) but again, the "Check your PETSCII submission" tool could solve that problem too. Output could be a high quality .prg file which again would make everyone happy.

Persuading orgas to require usage of such a tool is a different story though but who knows, if it makes life easier for everyone, it might work out. PETSCII pros are hopefully open-minded enough for using that tool too without feeling belittled.

2024-10-08 18:36

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

Not sure though if .png should be the input format; most tools do offer a more "native" export format that could be used

Many tools export .prg files with displayer, or some crazy other format. I am trying to add more of them to petconv right now :)

However, i think a toolchain that is suitable for quick checking should involve VICE for running the provided prg and making a screenshot (this can be automated fully) and then some tool can be used to check the result for valid petscii. Else you'd have to require the picture being provided in some particular format, which will not be very practical.

PS:

x64sc -default -console -warp -limitcycles 100000 -exitscreenshot foo.png -autostartprgmode 1 foo.prg

(experiment with number of cycles so it doesnt take too long and still provides proper result)

2024-10-08 18:52

WVL

Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902

I never tried, but png2prg also allows to convert a png to petscii. I don't know if the conversion is perfect, but wouldnt a simple check with png2prg be all that is needed to confirm PETSCII-ness?

I bet Burglar could even add it to the Votox engine.

2024-10-08 18:54

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting 4gentE

Are you saying that everything is allright and nothing should be done?

The only problem, perhaps, is allowing to mislabel the entry to "PETSCII" rather than "enhanced/loose/somethinglike PETSCII", but the entry was still conforming to the rules.

2024-10-08 18:58

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101

Quoting jmin

Further, coding a "PETSCII displayer [...] because it’s embarassingly trivial" is not that trivial if you have no connection to coding at all (and not everyone's goal either; i don't see me (yet) coding a hires viewer) but again, the "Check your PETSCII submission" tool could solve that problem too. Output could be a high quality .prg file which again would make everyone happy.

I already shared the tool to do all that above, add the -display flag and you get a crunched prg with displayer.

Quoting chatGPZ

However, i think a toolchain that is suitable for quick checking should involve VICE for running the provided prg and making a screenshot (this can be automated fully) and then some tool can be used to check the result for valid petscii.

This is how votox (X voting system, also used at Transmission) works. Except I have to press Alt-F4 to close vice (waiting for a good screenshot moment with demos/4ks).
It's trivial for me to add petscii validation in the process.
So far I only doubted once that an entry was true petscii, I was wrong and Ernie won the compo :P

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