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2008-10-30 22:41

Kickback

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97

What makes a demo? Really?

Looking at all the talk about the EoD and it being the "best" demo to date on the c64 brings up a topic I was throwing around in my head for sometime now.

Before I start congratz BD for the great demo and the hard work that you guys put into it. A very good product indeed to date on the c64.

I admit I was pounding the keyboard/website every day to finally get my hands on this. Like a piece of smack ready to light it up. Admit it everyone, YOU was one of those guys to pound on CSDB's doors looking for it.

But as I watched the demo I noticed something, I remember some demos back HCL said something to the fact that he refuses to do any PC type effects on this system. (This was some years ago). Which me being an old geezer and love the c64 stylish demos was happy to hear this.

But as the years went on and times have changed so has the demos. As I look around now most demos are more PC stylish instead of the c64ish that most have come to know. I think this is why some people say that this demo isn't thee "best" on the c64.

Which I can agree because everyone has there own tastes when it comes to demos. So now when I look at demos, I guess we can say retro demos compared to the demos of today, can you really compare them? And say well that is better, and this one is better.

I know there is ALOT of geezers out there my age and older then me and I think they can relate to this? I don't believe most "newer?" guys can relate to it.

Anyway, my question is what really makes a demo? If I have vectors in my demo and the next guy has some interlaced rasters, is the vector demo better? Yes yes I know what you will say, well it comes down to how its presented?

Ok so does presentation beat out technique/technical or is it visa versa? Or is it combination? I seen alot of talk about NW2 and how it just didn't have that "graham" twist to it? Graham meaning? Vectors?

I'm not slashin on anyone or anybody, like I said this question is something I kicked around upstairs in my head for awhile and I think maybe now is a great time to ask it?

Anyone?

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2008-11-02 10:18

Wile Coyote
Account closed

Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646

If you mean: What makes a good demo, some words spring to mind:
Balance
Design (a theme holding everything together can be difficult)
Originality
Style (ask TDJ/Focus, hell tell you all about that ;)
Size (2 disk sides being ideal - and allows for the Turn Disk pt.)
Hitting uncharted technical limits (for the extra wow factor)

Mix all 5 and that pretty much generates the ultimate demo.

everyone has there own tastes - This is one area no demo can guarantee success.

For me the ultimate demo would contain 1x each effect known on the C64 (and possibly none seen before). These effects would be perfectly executed, contain jaw dropping graphics, equally impressive audio, and transist between one another. No part would repeat. As well as effects, other parts to include would include: Greetings , Turn Disk, Intro, The End, and an animation of some sort (everyone has there own tastes).

All in all, quite a tall order, an impossible order.

2008-11-02 12:07

TDJ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879

On this I can be very brief (yeah, as if): to me a good demo is one that stirs up emotions, of any kind. Euphoria for example, which is something Edge of Disgrace apparently managed to do last week at the X, but fear & sadness are much more interesting to me, negative or not. That's one of the reasons why I hold Brief Bursts of Happiness so dear. And all those other things mentioned here before (coding, graphics, design, even concept) are just the building blocks needed to evoke these emotions.

Pull the strings of my heart baby, and you get my vote ;)

Edit: a demo that makes me think can do the trick for me as well from time to time. Best is the combination between these two, which I guess is the reason I am such a big fan of Hollowman.

2008-11-02 13:36

Optimus

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122

Quote:

Is there anything such as "pc effects"?

When he said PC effects the first thing that came in my mind was newschool 2d bitmap manipulation effects like filters, fire effect, radial blur, bump mapping, water effects, swirl plasmas, etc. It's what is usually harder to do on C64 without making it ugly, use chunky blocks and can't be faked with VIC tricks (except if someone prooves me wrong :) and generally they are not C64 specific. This is why HCL didn't want to code such effects I think. His style is in oldschool/midschool (amiga) era. I think 3d dots, zoomers, plasmas and rotozoomers, flat polygons are first done well on the Amiga. But the above mentioned newschool effects (oh and those envmapped torii ;) where first done on the PC I think and then copied on AGA machines. That's why the are called PC effects.

2008-11-02 14:02

daison

Registered: May 2005
Posts: 90

I think innovation is the keyword for good demos. Either it's innovative on a technical level, content - or presentational level.
So to see a new record breaking routine, or a just a new way of telling a story, it's all innovative and makes the existance of the product worthwile.

Personally, I dig the tech stuff the best though.

2008-11-03 21:49

Kickback

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97

Quote: Quote:
Is there anything such as "pc effects"?

When he said PC effects the first thing that came in my mind was newschool 2d bitmap manipulation effects like filters, fire effect, radial blur, bump mapping, water effects, swirl plasmas, etc. It's what is usually harder to do on C64 without making it ugly, use chunky blocks and can't be faked with VIC tricks (except if someone prooves me wrong :) and generally they are not C64 specific. This is why HCL didn't want to code such effects I think. His style is in oldschool/midschool (amiga) era. I think 3d dots, zoomers, plasmas and rotozoomers, flat polygons are first done well on the Amiga. But the above mentioned newschool effects (oh and those envmapped torii ;) where first done on the PC I think and then copied on AGA machines. That's why the are called PC effects.

Ah yes! This is what a mean about PC effects. Don't get me wrong I don't look down on these effects at all, I just refer to them as PC effects because they didn't start out on this system.

I mean it STILL takes great coding skills to get this stuff working at a good frame rate. I'm pretty sure if someone said to people back in 1984 that they would be able to do realtime filled full screen vectors, people would have laughed. I think the closest thing back then was the cheats used in games like Chronus Rift, Rescue On Fractulos.

Maybe it's my imagination but I see more and more PC type effects then VIC effects. I mean grant it we get some here and there but not many. Design seems to out weigh technique now? You would think in this age with emulators and so much other stuff that people would be bleeding the VIC? Maybe it hit the top?

But anyway design is great, technique is great and music/presentation all makes the demo. But can you honestly say that a 1 file demo could beat a DEM or EoD? Is it possible? I mean I seen some great one-filers from Oxyron, Crest, Camelot. But can you compare the 2? One-files to Multi-loads? Is it a fair to even look at them the same way?

2008-11-04 07:13

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969

They're different kinds of demo, which you don't compare like that, just like 4k is a category on its own. :)

The supreme discipline is still the (2-sider) demo, though :D

2008-11-04 09:24

enthusi

Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677

I think knoeki found nice words.
realtime audiovisual art

Still it lacks major things.
I dont think it has to be art (NO, Im not discussing "art" here), you could replace it by "show off".
And to ME it does not have to be audiovisual in a sense.
Take i.e. the first vertical rastersplits. They looked lame but were cool for their CODE not their effect.
I value if something LOOKS nice but also if it is DONE nice.
Hell I still have a decimal-flag-demo on my todo-list :)
I would also qualify static effects for a demo(part).
So something is a demo when someone calls it that.
It like a "thought" *g*

Sidenote (personal) EoD put some new limits to certain effects (maybe some of them hard to beat) but it only (lucky us) covered certain areas as the new DYCP record or Sounddemons new sample routine at X made quite obvious.

2008-12-04 20:53

chancer

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 346

come back in 5-10 years.. if you have a fond memory of it.. that says it.. same with any creative form, music , art etc.

yes there's the obvious music / graphics but the underlying code that makes it. Bit like a very nice super car, you see the shell of it, but the engine is as important.

I don't believe there IS a best demo, in the sense of there is more to come. That isn't being disrespectful to booze, crest , Xenon and the LOADS of others, their work is great.

I'm sure people who are responsible for such great productions, the multitude of others have a mutual respect for their rivals and are always trying to out do each other. I witnessed this a bit at x95, when reflex who won (with radio napalm) was looking at TMR's code for a part he made.

If it pushes things even more, that's a good thing. so yep I'm sure there are more great things to come.

2008-12-05 01:00

Kickback

Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 97

Very great points we have in this thread, and looking back on the whole scene who would have ever thought it would have got to this point with the types of demos and graphics we see nowadays.

Imagine someone coming to you in the late 80's saying filled vectors REALTIME would be possible? Or plasmas, or the advanced graphics formats that we have today??

I just really can't wait to see what else is coming down the line. More vic trick? Or have we squeezed what we can out of it?

I can't wait to see. Respect to ALL who keep this train running!!

2008-12-05 13:36

Cruzer

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048

Quote:

More vic trick? Or have we squeezed what we can out of it?

I actually just invented a new VIC trick a few days ago. Or at least a new effect done with the VIC that hasn't been done before. Whether it REALLY is a new VIC trick is always debatable. But anyway, I think I can say that I'm pretty sure we haven't seen everything the VIC can do yet. Especially when it comes to combining pure hardware tricks with software effects.

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