[CSDb] - User Forums - What is PETSCII - A guide for compo orgas

You are not logged in - nap

CSDb User Forums

Forums > CSDb Discussions > What is PETSCII - A guide for compo orgas

2024-10-07 19:19

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

What is PETSCII - A guide for compo orgas

Lately, We've seen several cases of releases that don't adhere to PETSCII standard being entered into compos. Examples are: 11th place at Revision 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "U-MOD3L", 4th place at Deadline 2024 Textmode Graphics compo called "Depth Logo with Obligatory Skull & Blood" and 2nd place at Xenium 2024 ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII compo called "Fantastic 4 Cracking Group logo".

The first mentioned example uses a custom character set instead of standard PETSCII. The second and third mentioned examples use multiple background colors and a custom combination of both "upper" and "lower" PETSCII character sets which is not possible in standard PETSCII.

Several PETSCII editors/paint programs out there allow for this faux/"fantasy" modes by untying the newcomer authors from original hardware restrictions. Some of them churn out C64 executables that utilize either normal character mode but with custom character set defined and written along with the displayer, ECM mode again with custom character set being written in the prg file, or downright hires bitmap mode (which is way out of even most lenient definition of "textmode graphics"). This furtherly confuses both newcomer authors and compo orgas because it leaves them under false impression that the file is compliant with standard PETSCII.

The shortest possible definition of PETSCII would be: if a picture can be recreated by using BASIC to print it on the screen (thx Groepaz) then it's a PETSCII. Or, if you can recreate it with no commands whatsoever (other than 2 POKEs for border/paper colors), by physically using cursor keys and the rest of the C64 keyboard Raquel Meyers style then it's a PETSCII for sure. I know compo orgas can't go writing BASIC programs or playing around with a real C64. Therefore I've attached a precise PETSCII specification at the bottom of this text. The origin of this specification is Shine's PETSCII World Discord server and the author is wbochar (a PETSCII artist and coder/maintainer of Petmate). Now, I'm aware that orgas can't reprint all this text when organizing a compo, but if they read and understand it, I'm sure they can distill the gist of it into something shorter that fits their needs. As long as they themselves are aware of the precise definition. Additionally, if future orgas are not sure about a specific entry, they can always contact Shine's PETSCII World on Discord or X, as the place is inhabited by nice people ready to help.

=======================================================================

Single Frame 'standard' PETSCII in PRG format

1. Uses built in character rom, UPPER or LOWER case (no mixing or flipping between cases).
2. No relocating ROM's, soft/custom roms, or copied ROM's.
3. petscii/data in standard (for that machine) screen and color memory area (if there is a color area)
4. Frame size is the default character editor dimensions for that platform (c64: 40x25 chars)
5. static background and border color (if that machine has that)
6. loops showing the picture (ie "jmp *")
7. No sprites, music, splits. rasterbars or other code manipulating the system. If you have to clarify something else thats legal, then assume No.
8. Auto starts from basic

So basically the PRG (program) on c64 just loads the screen chars and colors, sets the background, border and "pauses/loops" showing the pic.
Most of the time, I mean 99% we are talking about a c64 showing the petscii.
But technically, there are few platforms out there with their own distinct PETSCII/Colors/Frame implementations.
examples:
c64: 40x25 chars, 16 colors, background and border color.
PetX032: 40x25 or 80x25 chars, Mono Color (green/White), black background and no border color. There are multiple Char roms available for various pet versions..
vic20: 22x23 chars, Color is Fluid.., border 8 colors, background can have 16. The char roms are closer to the Pet than the c64
c128, c16... all have different color, screen size and rom differences..
So when you enter a compo or post a 'PETSCII' online.. we are usually talking about c64 40x25 chars.
If the compo has specific rules like "C64 Micro PETSCII 16x16 Mono Color" then override the values in the list above with the compo values.
Which means I can put 16 x 16 anywhere on the 40x25 screen with one color and choose another color for the Background, Border.
Any messing with the underlying char ROM's makes this a highres image that resembles a PETSCII, but is not a PETSCII.
The whole fun of this, is to work within the confines of PETSCII.
It's great to make art however you want to do it.. but if you want to call it a PETSCII image.. then those are the rules/guidelines.
There are many other formats that are PETSCII.. Wide and Long that scroll, animations, gfx demos. They all use the default charset/colors for that platform.

... 67 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2024-10-08 19:28

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Krill
Quote:

but the entry was still conforming to the rules.

The rules said “no custom fonts”. The entry that used chars from both sets can either be said to use a custom font or it’s a bitmap.

If we go the "enhanced/loose/somethinglike PETSCII" route, meaning allowing custom charsets, then the compo in fact becomes “tiled gfx compo”, and every NES game screen, every NES gfx complies, also all those superb technolandscapes Ray Manta expertly crafts. And this kind of compo would be awesome, just awsome. But it’s not Textmode (ASCII / ANSI / PETSCII).

Oh, and all those beautiful logos from Raistlin’s last compo. All of them are custom char gfx.

Please contribute something helpful (like everybody else here, big THANKS everybody!) Please. What you’re writing doesn’t really help. Normally, I like blabbering away with you like there’s no tomorrow, but I don’t feel like going back and forth with you around exact wording/unimportant stuff in this case. No “well, tecnically”-s. I really really care about this subject. And I’ve talked to quite a few PETSCII artists about it.

2024-10-08 19:54

chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386

Quote:

So far I only doubted once that an entry was true petscii, I was wrong and Ernie won the compo :P

LOL (awesome gfx)

2024-10-08 20:01

jmin

Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 10

@Burglar: I know, I was looking at it from the three contestants' point of view mentioned in the initial post and I guess using a command line tool wasn't on their mind at all for verifying or optimize anything beyond their editor's output. Here, a hurdle to take before submission might be key. Well, except, newbies should be kept out of a compo; an actual argument that I've read before too "to keep high level of quality" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

BTW, I was in a similar spot when starting out earlier this year during a vacation only having a Chromebook available; tripped over unexpected stuff like correct screenshot size for CSDb and correct color palette for the compo in question and so on.

Anyway, focus might be more on orgas, so yes, those guys don't have any excuse not using already available tools for validation.

2024-10-08 20:02

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1101

Quoting 4gentE

Please contribute something helpful (like everybody else here, big THANKS everybody!) Please.

I think what Krill points out does help, he is merely pointing out that orgas control what is allowed and not, they will interpret their rules their way.
I'm guessing a small lack of understanding of the petscii format is the root cause of this. They simply didn't check, didn't care or had an "we accept everything" policy to save time.
Mind you, there were a huge amount of entries and huge delays. For the compo team, these are very very taxing stressful times (been there, done that). "looks like its petscii" was good enough for them, I'm sure :)

And why they dismissed you on other chats, well, when ppl just completed organizing a very complex but successful event, you're gonna tell someone complaining in your style to f off ;)

2024-10-08 20:08

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

Quote:

Anyway, focus might be more on orgas, so yes, those guys don't have any excuse not using already available tools for validation.

That! Thanks! Now you’re talking! Newcomer PETSCII artists just use the tools that are out there. Those tools lie to them. This is not the artists’ fault, nor tool coders’. It’s just a circumstance we are witnessing. Orgas have to be made aware of that, provided with means to check entries, and go the extra mile. There’s no other proper way out.

2024-10-08 20:21

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

Quote:

And why they dismissed you on other chats, well, when ppl just completed organizing a very complex but successful event, you're gonna tell someone complaining in your style to f off ;)

Haha I get it, I really do, that’s why I took no offense.

Quote:

"looks like its petscii" was good enough for them.

This is a damn shame. A damn shame. “UNESCO cultural heritage” hahaha.

2024-10-08 21:06

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting 4gentE

The rules said “no custom fonts”.

That's in another section, not "PETSCII" specifically. Note how "ansimation" or "iCE colours" are not PETSCII-related either. It is somewhat ambiguous, granted.

Quoting 4gentE

If we go the "enhanced/loose/somethinglike PETSCII" route, meaning allowing custom charsets, then the compo in fact becomes “tiled gfx compo”

No, it won't, at least not necessarily. Rules can be fine-tuned to disallow certain things but not others. Again, it's all arbitrary.

I don't see why "something-like PETSCII" should be disallowed in a multi-platform compo, as long as it's clearly labelled as not strictly PETSCII. The C-64-only compos/parties may go the hardcore route.

2024-10-08 21:20

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

@Krill
OK fair enough. You’re saying there’s more than one way out of it.
1) Orgas can get their shit together and have a true PETSCII compo.
2) Or they can continue to act ignorant and have a "something-like PETSCII" compo.

Is it just me or (2) sounds lame and indolent? Like let’s have a “something-like tennis” tournament because we couldn’t be assed to learn tennis rules. Why would anyone want to go down the route (2) is beyond me. Past compos declared “PETSCII” and failed to deliver. If they want to have a “something-like PETSCII” compo in the future, they should declare it that way so that I (and some more people perhaps) don’t contribute to that. Oh, by the way, shouldn’t orgas ask around actual PETSCII artists for their opinion? If not, then who should make that decision? People who were not aware of PETSCII specs in the first place? Why?

How about “something like C64 demo”? Or “something like MultiColor” where you allow for 320x200 pixels instead of 2x1 pixel bricks while we’re at it?

2024-10-08 21:27

Krill

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980

Quoting 4gentE

Oh, by the way, shouldn’t orgas ask around actual PETSCII artists for their opinion? If not, then who should make that decision? People who were not aware of PETSCII specs in the first place?

Rest assured that the Deadline orga team has a few members who know exactly what PETSCII is and what isn't. The point is still that it's a mixed platform compo, and as such you're comparing apples to oranges either way.

And if you feel so strongly about this, why, go and make your own compo/party/demo about it. =)

2024-10-08 21:36

4gentE

Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 285

Quote:

Rest assured that the Deadline orga team has a few members who know exactly what PETSCII is and what isn't.

Either I call “bullshit” on that or that “few members” did not look at the offending entry. Personally, I don’t buy this being a decision they pondered on. I’m telling you, it was the only entry that neither had a proper screenshot nor executable. I think they just didn’t know PETSCII specs. They still don’t. And you’re not teaching them. Simple as that. On the other hand, if they did know the specs and decided to go with it like they did, things look even worse.

Previous - 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 - Next

Refresh

Subscribe to this thread: