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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
SID recordings – opinions on normalizing?
This isn't really aimed at composers but more on people who do real SID recordings:
What is your opinion on "normalizing" (or even more post processing) of SID recordings?
I usually record my music collections in one go and choose the input volume by the "loudest" song. When I later export those to individual files I'm always asking myself if I should normalize them all to -0.2 db or not. I'm unsure if it will destroy the "natural" feeling when you then again listen to the tunes in an MP3 playlist or similar.
In recording "normal" / acoustic music over the years it was never a question to normalize and even compress the heck out of everything. But just because "everyone does it" and sometimes it is even necessary to simulate the energy of a raw live rock sound when beeing in a recording / studio environment.
With SID it seems different. Even the tunes that have lower peaks already sound great. The "mixing" and in parts even "mastering" has already been done by the SID musician himself.
I would be interested in how others approach this subject. Do you normalize or even compress SID? Do you use even more post processing like EQ / reverb etc.? And if: why? And to what extend?
Cheers,
spider. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
I see.
Well, they do apply individual per-MOD gains in Amiga music disks.
So i guess it remains an artistic choice, albeit by whoever made the collection. I.e., YOU! =D |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting KrillSo i guess it remains an artistic choice, albeit on whoever made the collection. I.e., YOU! =D
Exactly. And because I want to "widen my horizon" is why I asked for opinions by other folks who record SID tunes :-) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2980 |
Quoting spider-jQuoting KrillSo i guess it remains an artistic choice, albeit on whoever made the collection. I.e., YOU! =D
Exactly. And because I want to "widen my horizon" is why I asked for opinions by other folks who record SID tunes :-) Yes, sorry. Finally read the entire OP now, will see myself out. =) |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 452 |
Some compression/limiter may be necessary to avoid clipping due to the snaps, crackles and pops of the SID, when streaming live for instance. |
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Flotsam
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 84 |
Personal choice of course, but when people upload stuff to youtube etc., I wish they'd normalize so that I wouldn't have to manually normalize by cracnking the volume slider up and down depending on the loudness of the current song.
Also, by normalizing, you ensure highest possible resolution (in digital formats) or SNR (in analog formats).
In a case of a multi-song SID, it would make sense to normalize to the loudest of the bunch, but otherwise per song. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting Mixerdue to the snaps, crackles and pops of the SID
From my recording experience there are no really "pops" in the usual "sudden high peak" sense in SIDs. Usually audible "pops" are 1.) at init (which I usually cut off – silence a litte) 2.) from "sexy hardrestart" especially with triangle waveform which imho is part of the "nature" with "modern" music routines.
I might have been just lucky with my SID / recording equipment in that regard though :-)
Quoting FlotsamAlso, by normalizing, you ensure highest possible resolution (in digital formats) or SNR (in analog formats).
In a case of a multi-song SID, it would make sense to normalize to the loudest of the bunch, but otherwise per song.
Yeah, that's kind of what I also thought so far. When "normalizing only" the RMS stays untouched so I think it still represents the original recording. There are a few exceptions though, which i.e. are heavily lo-pass filtered songs vs. songs that don't use much filter at all. When normalizing everything the latter ones sound much "louder" in comparison to the former than if you just playback them after one another on the real machine.
Thanks for your input so far! |
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vincenzo
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 83 |
All of the SIDs I own have pretty low output volume level and they don't clip - unless you crank up the incoming gain level on your input channel. Personally, I use ADSR to "mix" my tracks and because of this, their output is usually a tad quieter than others. Example of opposite side where the output is pretty crazy louder than usual is Jammer's tracks :) I'm not sure what's the trick but they are definitely louder than the average SIDs and they still don't clip the input of my soundcard's.
If I would do multiple SID recordings in one row, I do the same as you Spidey: set the input level to the loudest SID, record the bunch then normalize all. They probably will be still different because of the "dense-ness" of the composition, instruments, filter usage, etc. but at least there wouldn't be too much difference after normalization.
Using 48kHz/24bit for recording should be enough for normalization - the output of the SID can be pretty noisy anyway, depends on the motherboard and on the actual SID, etc. For this reason I use noise reduction too (record the pure output noise only, then use it as a noise pattern in eg. Izotope RX or similar plugin).
I believe the average listener doesn't really care and can't even tell the various SID revisions or replacements apart so it's up to you what you do with your recorded music. I hate to touch the volume knob whenever I listen to (any kind of) music, I prefer them on a steady and equal level so I appreciate normalization. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting vincenzoFor this reason I use noise reduction too (record the pure output noise only, then use it as a noise pattern in eg. Izotope RX or similar plugin).
Oh, that is interesting. Coming from acoustic music I completely avoid noise "reduction" (I only used "noise gate" on things like bass drum / snare i.e.) – always fearing that noise reduction will destroy the "natural" sound. Especially with those noise footprint functions you mention.
Do you have any (example) SID recordings where that technique was used? Would really love to hear those and compare to raw SID ouput. |
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ws
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 251 |
firstly, please don't normalize to -0.2 but -0.3 db. i don't find the explanatory article on that right now, but if you want to test it, open a -0.2 db limited mp3 as wav and you can actually see the effect.
normalizing shouldn't do anything bad to the overall artistical value for a SID recording, in the contrary: if you do not normalize, you actually waste amplitude power and leave unnecessary headroom.
compression: you would rather want brickwall limiting or multiband limiting. compression would change the dynamics of the song while limiting makes your track "louder" while also cutting off some dynamic peaks and introducing some kind of distortion, but for a 3-voice signal, it works pretty well.
if i want to do things like that quickly (and 99% of the time sloppy as it is a trade mark of WS), i'd recommend izotope Ozone. Also Izotope RX has some very nice spectral denoising, if that is ever desirable because you will at some point always get artifacts.
:-)
ps.: if you recently won the lottery, i recommend these monitors, they are like an electron microscope for the ears: https://www.abacus-electronics.de/c-box4.html |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quoting wsfirstly, please don't normalize to -0.2 but -0.3 db. i don't find the explanatory article on that right now, but if you want to test it, open a -0.2 db limited mp3 as wav and you can actually see the effect.
Okay, I didn't know that. If you stumble over that article again post here or PM. I'm very interested. The -0.2 db normalization peak was what my audio engineer friends taught me in the 90ies XD
Quoting wscompression: you would rather want brickwall limiting or multiband limiting.
Yeah, brickwall limiting seems to be the best option of you want to go for compression/limiter on SIDs for me too.
Quoting wsi'd recommend izotope Ozone. Also Izotope RX has some very nice spectral denoising, if that is ever desirable because you will at some point always get artifacts.
Thanks for the recommendations. I must admit I'm completely out of the "audio engineer" business for a long time now. Last album I made was in 2012 and that was mixed and mastered by a friend. Never bothered with audio stuff in the last >10 years because my 100% switch to linux. But a lot of VST(i) stuff seems to work nowadays. Have to look into it. Just bought a REAPER license one or two years ago and have only used that to capture raw SID so far. |
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