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Forums > C64 Composing > Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

2011-02-10 11:46

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

Composing music in general, techniques, hints and tips

What I really miss is a topic about music composing in general. If I haven't found an existing topic regarding this, but if we have any, let me know about it.
(There are many topics in Composing section, thanks god there's a good seraching engine. However it would be great to have more categories inside 'Composing' for easier browsing.)

I want to start this topic about the music composition itself, which is always a mystic topic and there's no real perfect method of teaching it in schools even nowadays.
On one hand this is the beauty of composing, that it cannot be described consciously in its entire form, and one can never say he learned everything.

I want to write a book/article in the future about the logic and lexical knowledge behind music composition, as there aren't a lot of comprehensive books or webpages that give us a complete picture and directions to improve.
One good (and possibly a standard) is Arnold Schoenberg's 'Fundamentals of Musical Composition', which gives a lot of understanding to composition itself (not music theory!).

If you have knowledge and experiences which you want to share with composers all around, feel free post your replies into this topic... and at the end we will have something at CSDB which will be a guide to refresh the spirit and knowledge of musical composition.

What this topic would exclude:
-The music theory (literature about chords, staff, etc..) - many books and videos can be found all around on the net.
-The use of trackers and analog synthesis techniques of SID, which is another topic, bit related of course...and has been discussed already afaik.

I'm looking forward your contributions with tips as well as questions/replies - discussions :)

Hermit Software Hungary

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2011-02-14 22:34

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

jssr67, you must be much more experienced than me, full respect and thanks for reading my long post. I think I learn a lot from your comments. About me: I don't play instruments a long ago (some years), but I tried composing with several breaks on different platforms since about 8 years ago...first on C64, then Fasttracker, then much later (2008) I came back to C64, and try to improve in composing even on live instruments...

BTW, you may have misunderstood something, I didn't sign any priority or order with letters a..f , just wanted to outline the list elements a bit...because there's not a lot of formatting option here. So e.g. I didn't say rhythm is coming later, it depends on composing technique IMO...what more, I agree that rhythm is the very basic part of a complete music. This is what someone feels first... I'll have to practice expressing myself clearer, especially when time comes to write a book/article about my experiences...

I have some time nowadays, so I'll be able to make some example songs/workfiles...and I'll start that soundcloud.com uploadind as soon I register to it. Just a minute ago I finished a one-pattern example with my 'first thought' method (with bass and chords), and saved it in phases. I started with melody, then everything came just by ear...not that perfect, I'll consider whether I upload it or start another, better example...

Hermit Software Hungary

2011-02-14 23:06

jssr67
Account closed

Registered: Jan 2011
Posts: 33

Hermit, as we say in Germany: "thanks for the flowers"... ;-)

To give you a bit of personal backgounds: actually, I am not that experienced a composer on C64 - during that time, I was more involved in writing software and playing guitar than composing.
But after my active C64 times in the 80s, I had a few years in the 90s as a "hobby musician" guitarist in a progressive rock/metal band (electrified concert nylon string guitar instead of steel strings (suits my anatomy better), but played as metal instrument :-) ), where I wrote part of the music. We were just three: guitar, bass, drums where our bass player always had a hard times with the "chaotic nature" of what we other two wrote :-)
By that time, the drummer and me were largely inspired by bands like dream theater, fates warning, but also for example voivod or mekong delta - the latter ones theirselves just arranging many pieces of Chaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Stravinsky, Bartok... so you can imagine my skight "preference" for ryhthms and harmonics that may sound "strange" to nowadays average pop music audience.

Not to say that I dislike all more "mainstream" music - I already posted black sabbath examples, which I consider mostly pure mainstream - but exploring limits just has its own fascination :-)

2011-02-15 03:10

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

Well hermit, i have issues with GT, thats why i dont use it.
i use a real c64.

If you just use 1 hour on SDI, you will see its not complicated at all.

Read the manual once, without trying anything.
Then watch my videos at http://www.youtube.com/diabelez
There is over 10 SDI instruction videos.

When you know a tracker, protracker, GT etc., you can use SDI within 1 day, if you just bother to use the little time, really.

But if you just wanna do examples in GT, then just do it.
anyone should be able to load any editor, and watch a tune - you dont need to know the editor to do that.

if you use midi, its worse.
not all people have a program to use/see/edit midi.
how many here has Sonar ? how many has Cubase ?

so lets forget midi, please. ok ?

I can host all the example files, if people mail their stuff to sidwave@gmail.com - then everything can be put in http://www.sidwave.com/share/music_examples (permlink)

2011-02-15 03:20

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

you find SDI 2.07, 08 beta, example tunes here:
http://www.sidwave.com/share/sdi2_examples.zip

to be loaded in the editor..

the great force of the scene that has made people able to learn from eachother, was MOD tracking.
1000ands using the same editor, swapping modules and samples.

unfortunately, this hasnt been the case on c64.

people find it so difficult to learn sid, that they give up after only 20 minutes. its a real shame. i know many music guys who say "oh i always dreamed of making sid tunes like galway" - and even if they are cubase experts or release commercial hits, they still dont bother to use 20 minutes on a c64, even when they have this little dream inside.

its a goddamn shame :D

2011-02-15 06:18

NecroPolo

Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231

Me and music theory is somewhat like adding hydraulic suspensors, intelligent control electronics and satellite navigation to a fyling brick :)

Instinct and attitude. That's all about. If you rely too much on others' ideas, it will place overused patterns into your own ideas. For a more pure stream, it is best to re-discover most of things needed by yourself.

For some method as such, I prefer the "distant island" way. While floating on the ocean of irregulated ideas, you spot an island that you wish to reach then just go with the flow while trying to organise the chaotic, gigantic mass below with a paddle, to make it work for you. No planning, tested safe method, math to follow. The ocean is way too unpredictable. Too many factors are changing, every and each journey is different. Should be so, indeed: it prevents repetition.

The only things that are to be repeated/refined/emphasized are individual differences from all the other acts that amplifies recognisable character as an echo in the listeners' minds. Small nuances that make the act identifiable and sets it apart from all the others.

Quoting jssr67

And the most important: even though there are some common patterns to all listeners, whether a piece of music "hits" the audience is only in small parts owed to its composition. It has to be presented to the correct audience, at the correct point in time. Much good music nowadays fails in that point, not in its composition, and this is beyond the composer's scope. Actually, they even lose against pieces that are much weaker being looked at with composition criteria.

The most imprtant thought in there, I assume. No one makes music for himself really. With no adequate support, I've seen so many great folks collapsing under the load of their own talents because of lack of feedback and recognition. Mind cracking, burning out, even committing suicide.

In the practice, it is approx. 30% of your energies are burned on creating music and 70% on promotion. One must be aware of that. Sadly, if you are strong in the later, you don't even have to perform well in the former.

2011-02-15 08:00

SIDWAVE
Account closed

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238

no, its good to learn stuff on own ways.

i more or less have every music that was ever produced in the c64 and amiga scene.

ive seen a lot of good guys, sounding more and more standard (commercial), and then i lost interest.

we cant all be rob hubbard, or elton john, but we can learn from them, and make our own version. inspiration.

what keeps the sid alive, is the fact that people try and create new styles of music. and its all made with the same instrument, the sid. that is what is the beauty of sid, that any music can be made on it. (example: you will fail if you try and make psytrance with a guitar)

sid duzz it :D

if you take a gritty distorted guitar and put it into a symphony orchestra, its gonna eat all the good frequencies, and the mix becomes horrible :D

onto the topic: a bit of theory is good, because it can show some angles you didnt think about, and give new ideas.

and also the c64 scene has never had any working collaboration about making music.

on amiga you just load any MOD in protracker, steal his samples, steal his effects, or remix his tune. it helped so many composers to try out eachothers styles, swap sounds, share music ideas, chasing the dream to make the ultimate tune.

C64 complicates this by having 300+ editors, and no general format.

this has changed a bit, as GT has become the most used editor i think..

but its fail..
you laptop lamers have no excuse, a c64 cost very little money, and its no problem to get one - and then you get the real sound. why do you keep using a pc program, and upload sid files made with psid64 ?

buy as many c64 as you can find, and preserve them, so when they die of hardware failure, you can repair one or just take a new one, so you can have a c64 for the rest of you life. im quite sure that Eric Clapton is also still using (sometimes) the very first guitar he got. such people have many guitars, and ive often read that they have the first, and still use it, and that it feels special.

I think at Datastorm, there was less than 20 C64, and 200+ people. is this how you want to continue this ? and keep asking people to hand in compo stuff on real 5.25 disks, when there is only 2 guys at a party who can transfer their stuff ? wake up please! csdb preserves the demos, so why in gods name do you not preserve the machines ?

ok i got desperate there :D

why all this, yes: if all used a real c64, then more programmers would also be working to create better music editors, and invent new routines. innovation.

thats exactly why you should throw out that laptop :D

2011-02-15 09:32

4mat

Registered: May 2010
Posts: 66

Quoting rambones

this has changed a bit, as GT has become the most used editor i think..

but its fail..
you laptop lamers have no excuse, a c64 cost very little money, and its no problem to get one - and then you get the real sound. why do you keep using a pc program, and upload sid files made with psid64 ?

Because it's a heck of a lot more convenient to fire up GT for 30 minutes rather than have a real c64 setup in the house or dragging one out of the cupboard everytime. The 'laptop lamer' mentality at people who don't use hardware is ridiculous, how many people develop their demos 100% on hardware anymore? How many people returned to the scene because they could work on projects without having to commit to keeping a rig working to do it? I only ever use hardware at the end of a project to do a final test, I don't feel any less 'hardcore' for doing that.

As to "the real sound", I think most of us know how a real SID sounds after using them for years in the '80s, you can easily adjust when using an emulated version. Besides which reSID-PF has made such great strides forward recently I'm hard pressed to tell a real 8580 from their emulation.

2011-02-15 11:32

Hermit

Registered: May 2008
Posts: 208

I have (one of) my C64 machine with MMC64 Replay always at left-hand-side at my desk next to the PC-LCD with dedicated screen. When it comes to demo-watching, entertaining myself or testing music and software, I really prefer using this real machine, because emulation will newer reach the stability of real mass and the SID's analog quality, I'm pretty sure. Anyway, there are good approaches in emulation to the real nowadays...but feel never ever be the same.
However, despite I don't really like emulation, the time is still too short nowadays to always transfer things to C64 back & forth, and I don't know any native C64 music editors yet that is so convenient with as many features as GT. Now using Linux, at least I have a stable base for VICE and GT.

I think we can forgive people for using cross tools, because it's still better than forgiving C64 at all. It's the rushed world around, what keeps us back having enough time to develop good tools and work on real C64...and if the picture is not fully what we dream of, at leat I'd say thanx to everybody who keeps the spirit alive, be it in any way...

I'll try to learn SDI, despite I don't know about a possibility to load/save instruments. Delight me if there is.

Maybe not secret, I mentioned in a thread that I'm writing a native C64 music tool, but it's only half ready. I have not a lot of time, and can continue it only occasionally. One day it might be released, and will have to contain all features that is included in other music tools.

Back to general composing, I'm also working - just in mind yet - on a crossplatform General MIDI based PC music composer app and a good-quality SF2 GM to compose with. My idea will be for composing that every usual instrument has to be under hands (sf2 GM wavetable), avoiding the need for browsing in VSTs at composing time, and decreasing the need to connect and mix live instruments. In other words, avoiding every possible extra (sometimes time consuming) works that stands in a way of the composition process. (Don't get me wrong, sometimes live instruments are easier to play than editing e.g. a guitar-rhythm in piano-roll/pattern editor.)
I'll use JUCE library, which is very adequate for sound programming. I'm glad that I found this c++ library.

My PC tool, if it will be done, should contain more than one hierarchical step from patterns through pattern-groups (unlike e.g. SEQ24/LMMS, in Non Sequencer they exist and are called Phrases) and sequences/orderlists to complete music...
When there will be some concrete composition tips (thx to this thread) which are more generally agreed, I'm planning to implement some helper tools into the music editor, which will aid the beginners interactively in the starting and so giving them ideas on possibilities when they stuck... I don't mean drumpatterns or random melodies, but textual tips in specific points with some possible ways of tricks...

2011-02-15 13:43

Hate Bush

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465

instead of so many words, i would like to see a topic where c64 composers would post links to what they consider greatest music imaginable, and - if they want to - explain why. let's say, one link per day max.
each of us could benefit from that and expand those horizons, so to speak.
anyone interested?

2011-02-15 14:11

Linus

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639

Hell yes! I´d be very interested in a topic like that.

I don´t want to go into discussion about how I disagree with stuff like ...

Quote:

Nobody except composers, can really understand deep emotional pieces, like some from Jarre.
Its because we understand the notes involved.
Unconssious = not 100% knowing.

without giving examples.

Care to start a dedicated topic, dear Michal?

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