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2005-04-12 10:15

Slartibartfast
Account closed

Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 230

** Link removed by CSDb staff due to copyright. Please do not provide download links to this **

Well, there has been a few of these notices today, on certain Protovision releases that have been cracked and released by some people on CSDb.

Cracking has always been a large part of the scene, arguably the biggest and also what has ultimately ensured the scene to exist today.

If it weren't for cracking, piracy if you will, many games simply wouldn't be available on the web today. The C64dtv wouldn't have much of a lineup, all the games on it were cracks from the scene.

Now this issue has come to CSDb again, over old releases of Protovision games. Download links removed, to files which are definitely a part of the scene.

I can understand the policy on this, it's a way to protect CSDb against legal action. Other sites, for instance GB64, have tackled this by not hosting the files and just providing links to them.

But CSDb won't allow even that, if someone has an issue with their copyrighted work being available, the links will be removed. Even links provided by the user in their comment to the entry, will be censored and removed.

There is nothing regarding this policy in the CSDb FAQ, yet there is this disclaimer:

"Who's responsible for this?
We cannot take responsibility for the content of this database as all information is submitted by users."

So, that says straight out that CSDb is not responsible for the content.

It can be said that this is a way to protect CSDb in future, but from whom exactly? Can anyone honestly see Chronosoft or Protovision sueing anyone? Or if this is a measure to protect CSDb, could it go further and remove all cracks from the site?

On the other hand, CSDb are just trying to protect themselves, from Protovision apparently. Should we take the old debate over piracy directly to Protovision? As sceners themselves, they should know better than to be taking on this issue against sceners. Don't we all know by now that the people who would download these cracks, are not the same people that would buy it? That some of the people that get the game for free may even consider buying it at a later point?

One of the Protovision founders was a cracker himself, other members have been crackers, swappers or undoubtedly recipients of pirated software themselves.

This seemed to start with Macgyver altering a release of a PTV game here yesterday. A member of Protovision and also a CSDb admin. He was a swapper in the past.

Is this censorship really necessary? Do Protovision really think they would lose sales of these games, does CSDb really think there is any threat of legalities from an admin of this site?

This is an issue that strikes deep with many in the scene, and this site is an essential part of the scene today.

Surely there must be a better way to deal with this.

So let's discuss it here rather than in comments on these censored releases ;)

... 209 posts hidden. Click here to view all posts....

2005-04-12 17:26

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote: * Is this a SCENE database or a SALES database?

* What type of scene database pays attention to copyright? A kiddie-database? Surely this site can handle such releases without this wild-censoring. The releases on FTP sites are NOT the responsibility of this database's administration.

* Does the whole argument about piracy have to be done all over again within the scene? That is crazy. This scene has existed for two decades, shouldn't we be the most mature scene of them all? Or are we still trying to discuss the principles?

* And it seems crack intros are a casualty of the whole crack thing on csdb as well, that's just not right!

Jazzcat you know my opinion about this problem. It's about the fact that scene distances shrunk... keeping traditions is harming your "eighbour" feelings.. today.. how many active sceners are there 1000? 2000? Stealing in communism was not considered bad thing to do.. people stole from resources which belonged to everyone, so why should they care. Today it's different... if you steal from your company you steal the property of your boss.. you are harming someone you know. And this is similar with today scene.. it's so small that all we do is sooner or later affecting our future. That's why I don't "eat" all those old traditions.. My sympathy or antipathy towards protovision doesn't have anything to do with that...

2005-04-12 18:02

cba

Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935

Quote: MacGyver is member of my group - Dmagic. He does a lot of support for c64.sk and CSDB which cooperate together since the beginnig. It's a positive cooperation for both sides and if you have individual problems with Maccie please discuss them privately with him. The Protovision releases aren't your property, so how can you blame him for guarding it the every possible way, especially when he does a lot of other things which help this database? There are other ways how to get that "live" software. Get it on ftp sites, or ask for e-mail sending or whatever else. Do you really need to have download link here? If you do, ask Perff for direct answer.

One thing is keeping scene traditions, and other is direct spitting into face of Protovision members and programmers, some of them even sceners. It's a "doublethink" paradox of this scene. But consider the fact that this is happening publicly and online. It's not as in past, when this was a sort-of undergorond activity. Now when there are no law enforcements and no criminal prosecution of such activites it's just about communication between us sceners. I find it quite malicious to blame Protovision for their naive, but understandable activities.

roman

Roman,

Sure MacGuyver is protecting it as best as he can,
by removing locks from my entries and then locking them
again under his name , pfff what do you call this sort
of behaviour ? , I call it a display of POWER that he
seems to be having here.

Blue Ninja (who ever he is) wrote about MacGuyver doing
such a great things for CSDB, like correcting stuff and adding stuff, well who cares ?, we are all doing this and even without having ADMIN rights, the fact is, this guy is just
abusing his admin power by looking who has down voted PTV and to see if there are cracked versions from PTV games at CSDB, I mean, do I really still trust CSDB from this point on ? , not really, I lost all trust in this very nice system that I've been supporting since a couple of years.

I still hope the CSDB staff will REMOVE the admin rights from Mc-I change everything-Guyver!,

I told Perff today that I will no longer support CSDB with this guy being an admin, a shame for such a nice project here, but power minded people seem to win it.

Niels

2005-04-12 18:06

Earthshaker

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 118

If this is a Scene Database, what are those Protovision games doing in here? Only the cracked versions should be here with or without the download links.

2005-04-12 18:22

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

Quote: If this is a Scene Database, what are those Protovision games doing in here? Only the cracked versions should be here with or without the download links.

apparently they like some kinds of promotion better than other

2005-04-12 18:39

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3048

Quote:
Roman,

Sure MacGuyver is protecting it as best as he can,
by removing locks from my entries and then locking them
again under his name , pfff what do you call this sort
of behaviour ? , I call it a display of POWER that he
seems to be having here.

Blue Ninja (who ever he is) wrote about MacGuyver doing
such a great things for CSDB, like correcting stuff and adding stuff, well who cares ?, we are all doing this and even without having ADMIN rights, the fact is, this guy is just
abusing his admin power by looking who has down voted PTV and to see if there are cracked versions from PTV games at CSDB, I mean, do I really still trust CSDB from this point on ? , not really, I lost all trust in this very nice system that I've been supporting since a couple of years.

I still hope the CSDB staff will REMOVE the admin rights from Mc-I change everything-Guyver!,

I told Perff today that I will no longer support CSDB with this guy being an admin, a shame for such a nice project here, but power minded people seem to win it.

Niels

I understand your point, but maybe you should contact MacGyver and ask him not to touch entries added by you. It seems his intention is to keep them without links, and I understand why he does it. One thing is getting credits/points for cracking achievments, other things is giving links to cracks of currently distributed games here. I think everyone (who wants to play them) knows where to get them, or sooner or later gets them. It would be nice if we pretended that we respect PTV for their vain effort of pleasing this ungrateful scene ;-)

Downvoting sucks. I would appreciate the transparent voting system. Then we wouldn't have to discuss Maccies rights to check anonymous voters names.

2005-04-12 18:48

Seven

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202

we've been discussing transparent votes for years now, but the very same administration that refuses to do something about it is the very same administration that allows MacGyver to do as he sees fit, to unlock cracks of his own games while his own claim to fame (if you can call it that) is a so-called story-board (read: textedit) of an X-Ample game.

Clearly, we're working with two standards here... games by others are fair game for MacGyver, MacGyver/PTV games are taboo...

braindead yet?

2005-04-12 19:27

Burglar

Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1085

Well, I think it's just silly.

2005-04-12 19:30

Scout

Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570

Quote: Well, I think it's just silly.

*ROFLMAO*

:D

Go Enno!
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://www.deco-design.com/scl

2005-04-12 19:32

Fungus

Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 680

It is plain silly really. I agree with H.O's views completely. The scene started with cracking, in the beginning there was no such thing as a demo group or even a demo. There was cracking only, and it IS the basis of the scene. And it continues to be
a large part of the scene today.

TheBlueNinja: Obviously you know squat about cracking, and are biased against it in some way. So you should just keep your mouth shut on such subjects as you don't have any clue what your speaking of.

Mermaid: Are you whining again? Oh for pete sake... grow up yourself.

2005-04-12 19:42

Count Zero

Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1922

It's gonna be a busy day at the csdb.

"A site dedicated to gathering as much information as possible about the productions, the groups, the sceners and the events in the Commodore 64 scene."

A site which indeed is an excellent meeting place for sceners of today and the past, but it sure mustn't stay that way.

Lose your credibility now, keep it lost for the next decade actually. I still don't respect some people from the past for the work they delivered ...

... which takes me straight to Protovision.
I am a cracker, I used to be a cracker and I will remain a cracker forever :)

- but I also fixed games from time to time, leading me to take a close look at some codings. I am for sure not a good coder at all - heck NO - still I can see the difference on good, bad, quick and sluggish code. Seen it from this level, I am not willing to pay the money PTV is asking for MOST of their productions - ESPECIALLY not 8.00 Euro for e.g. VirtualAss which is a proven resource and stolen in major parts from TASS.

(Atleast admit it properly, like we do, and release it for free to the public, no?)

I agree that people want to protect their property and I see the conflict of interest csdb and PTV have at this point. Still, under *no circumstances* the database should get compromised in this way.

That makes it unreliable and renders some contributions people do here simply useless.
Will make you loose a larger part of your userbase aswell probably, or make people withdraw their entries even - who knows.

The CSDB staff should by itself decide which way to go, since they host the system. They need to point out a few things though and should make their point clear to the public then. Always considering that they apparently count themselves in as sceners and atleast all of the cracking scene here (an interestingly large part) will not accept censorship.

You even comply to most countries laws by ONLY placing a link and not offering a direct download from your servers.

l8r

Count Zero/CyberpunX/SCS*TRC

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