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2004-11-13 19:28

Monte Carlos

Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 358

Church of C64

What is this Church of C64 thing about?
It makes me suspicious, because they come up with
a very hirarchical organisation and seem to introduce
"Pay members" again.

Monte Carlos

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2004-11-25 18:29

bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2583

Quite interesting discussion here, although way off topic... The astonishing thing in religious people like ready. is for me how certain they are of what they believe "god wants them to do". This seems to be the base for all sorts of intolerance. Because it means that the other people are not able or, even worse, not willing to listen to god. And then it is only a small step to trying to convince the other with words or weapons, which is what we see every day all around the globe. And I do not only mean the "Jihad", the christians do not have learnt their lesson at all (look at Northern Ireland or the mostly muslim-christian clashes in Africa or Asia). So god doen not want me to have sex before marriage? He (or she?!) wants me to keep my fingers off my dick? He (or perhaps even "it", that´s neutral at least) does not want me to use condoms? Then I am happy with my ears not being able to hear that rules. Or perhaps it tells me just the opposite? How about "Have fun, as long as you don´t harm anybody"? No, I think that is something that every being equipped with a working brain (and willing to use it!) can come up with. And everyone personally is the only instance to judge between "good" and "bad". If more people would use their brains and not listened to any religion, we would have a lot less problems on earth.
And by the way: the pope rehabilitating Galileo Galilei after 400 years and under massive pressure of losing his followers (who learned to use their brains not because of, but in spite of the religion!) seems to me a very very very small step forward; especially when at the same time on the other hand condoms are damned, thus harming and killing hundred thousands of people by HIV. And this is only one example of how harmful also the christian religions still act today, in the 21st cantury. Not to mention the "Crusade against the axis of evil" by certain very "christian" politicians who also claim to know what god wants them to do...

2004-11-25 19:02

CreaMD

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3053

Quote: Quite interesting discussion here, although way off topic... The astonishing thing in religious people like ready. is for me how certain they are of what they believe "god wants them to do". This seems to be the base for all sorts of intolerance. Because it means that the other people are not able or, even worse, not willing to listen to god. And then it is only a small step to trying to convince the other with words or weapons, which is what we see every day all around the globe. And I do not only mean the "Jihad", the christians do not have learnt their lesson at all (look at Northern Ireland or the mostly muslim-christian clashes in Africa or Asia). So god doen not want me to have sex before marriage? He (or she?!) wants me to keep my fingers off my dick? He (or perhaps even "it", that´s neutral at least) does not want me to use condoms? Then I am happy with my ears not being able to hear that rules. Or perhaps it tells me just the opposite? How about "Have fun, as long as you don´t harm anybody"? No, I think that is something that every being equipped with a working brain (and willing to use it!) can come up with. And everyone personally is the only instance to judge between "good" and "bad". If more people would use their brains and not listened to any religion, we would have a lot less problems on earth.
And by the way: the pope rehabilitating Galileo Galilei after 400 years and under massive pressure of losing his followers (who learned to use their brains not because of, but in spite of the religion!) seems to me a very very very small step forward; especially when at the same time on the other hand condoms are damned, thus harming and killing hundred thousands of people by HIV. And this is only one example of how harmful also the christian religions still act today, in the 21st cantury. Not to mention the "Crusade against the axis of evil" by certain very "christian" politicians who also claim to know what god wants them to do...

Well put.

2004-11-25 19:18

JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014

Yeah! Well put. It's always easier to lean back on some kind of mysterical phenomena when you have to agrue for or against something, like "god told me too", "god wants me too" etc etc, instead of using your own grey cells.

_Still_ there is room for a creator, although he/she/it safly resides inside/before big bang currently. As science moves forward, god moves backward. It's a loose-loose situation for god and his/hers/its followers IMO.

Have fun and join the church!

2004-11-25 22:10

ready.

Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441

@bugjam:
About intolerance: I just gave my own experience about my life and what God means to me, without point my finger to anybody, I didn't judge anybody. Besides this, I've already said that we are free to have sex, use condoms and masturbate. I've never heard of anybody being killed by a thunder while masturbating because God was mad at him/her.

About Ireland: NO ONE, NOBODY can call him/herself a Christian and practice violence. Remeber what Jesus said: "Love other people as yourself" (sorry for translation which might not be 100% right). He preaced love even for his enemies. On the cross he praid for them who were crucifing him: "Father, forgive them because they don't know what their are doing!" He didn't say "Father, kill these bastards for what they are doing!!". I've already said that we are humans and the Church is made of humans who sometimes do wrong stuff. Crusades were said to be do in the name of God, I guess they were made for personal interest, for power sake. I think them people misunderstood the very roots of the Christian Church, the message of love Jesus Christ wanted to leave us. Once again I remind you he did not rebel to his enemies, Jesus even stopped his disciple Peter when he pointed the sword to the romans who were there to crucify Jesus.

About Galileo: would have been better if the Pope didn't apologize at all? I don't think so. The Church as been so far behind during the last centuries, I think we should recognize its merits, at least when they are obvious. Especially when the Church admist its mistakes. Why do you want to see only what you want about the Chruch. Ok you might not agree on many rules "imposed" (remember we are free), but how can you deny all the good things the Church did for the forgotten ones? Once again I remind you Mother Teresa's dedication to leprose people. Nobody asked you to agree on everything, nor anybody forces you to do this.

2004-11-26 05:16

Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206

Religion is really not the issue in Northern Ireland anyway. Although it has sometimes played a part in the history of the troubles, it's not the cause of the violence in more recent times. The troubles are essentially to do with diferent cultures and nationalism. Religion is perhaps a part of those cultures, but taking religion out of the equation would certainly not solve the problems. There are many people on both "sides" who have no religious beliefs at all. AFAIK, the churches there have always condemed the violence since its rise in the 60's.

2004-11-26 07:46

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."

2004-11-26 08:05

hollowman

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474

"I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my father, brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." - Charles Darwin

2004-11-26 22:16

bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2583

Quote: @bugjam:
About intolerance: I just gave my own experience about my life and what God means to me, without point my finger to anybody, I didn't judge anybody. Besides this, I've already said that we are free to have sex, use condoms and masturbate. I've never heard of anybody being killed by a thunder while masturbating because God was mad at him/her.

About Ireland: NO ONE, NOBODY can call him/herself a Christian and practice violence. Remeber what Jesus said: "Love other people as yourself" (sorry for translation which might not be 100% right). He preaced love even for his enemies. On the cross he praid for them who were crucifing him: "Father, forgive them because they don't know what their are doing!" He didn't say "Father, kill these bastards for what they are doing!!". I've already said that we are humans and the Church is made of humans who sometimes do wrong stuff. Crusades were said to be do in the name of God, I guess they were made for personal interest, for power sake. I think them people misunderstood the very roots of the Christian Church, the message of love Jesus Christ wanted to leave us. Once again I remind you he did not rebel to his enemies, Jesus even stopped his disciple Peter when he pointed the sword to the romans who were there to crucify Jesus.

About Galileo: would have been better if the Pope didn't apologize at all? I don't think so. The Church as been so far behind during the last centuries, I think we should recognize its merits, at least when they are obvious. Especially when the Church admist its mistakes. Why do you want to see only what you want about the Chruch. Ok you might not agree on many rules "imposed" (remember we are free), but how can you deny all the good things the Church did for the forgotten ones? Once again I remind you Mother Teresa's dedication to leprose people. Nobody asked you to agree on everything, nor anybody forces you to do this.

Intolerance: I still see a contradiction. If you say "I realized what god wants me to do", you imply that he wants this from everybody. Because god can have only one will, right? And by that you imply that everybody who has sex before marriage (or masturbates or uses condoms) acts against god´s will. We are not thunderstruck or -instead, and much more likely indeed- punished by members of the church -as fulfillers of god´s will on earth-, mainly because the church lost it´s power due to too many people starting to use their own brains. They lost the power, it is that simple. In other countries (like some fundamentalist muslim states) they still have it, and there the terror against people acting against "god´s will" is dreadful. See the parallels?

Violence: I think 2000 years of christian church history prove the opposite. The problem obviously does not lie in the christian religion, but in every form of earthly organisation of it.

Galileo: I cannot see any good in the pope admitting some "errors" (and at the same time commiting lots of new ones) just for the sake of preserving a bit of it´s dwindling power. And the so-called "good deeds" are done mostly for the very same reason. Good deeds helped and help to keep the status quo (with a very good position for the church, power- and moneywise), that´s it.
That does not mean that I do not think that christian individuals (!) did lots of good things, but the church? No way.

2004-11-26 22:19

bugjam

Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 2583

Quote: "It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believe in Him."

This is plainly brilliant!!! Who said that?

2004-11-26 22:37

jailbird

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578

Quote: This is plainly brilliant!!! Who said that?

Unfortunately I don't know. Try Google.

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