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Forums > C64 Pixeling > Double Screen Compo Voting
2011-05-08 15:10
v3to

Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 150
Double Screen Compo Voting

Okay - all entries are in and it is time for voting.

Take your time and check the pictures properly. If you like to check it on a C64, I'd recommend to turn off the volume, because music tends to alter atmosphere. Now here come the rules:

---
CHOOSE 3 FAVORITES - NO MORE - NO LESS
SEND YOUR CHOICE VIA PM TO ENTHUSI OR ME
OR BY MAIL TO << COMPO[AT SPAMSUCKS]C64PIXELS[DOT]COM >>
PLEASE DO NOT FORGET YOUR HANDLE/GROUP OR NAME
---

Deadline for voting is June 7th 2011 (know it is a long term but c64pixels-visitors are watching random)

Good luck to all contestants !


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Looking Outward by Celtic, code by Zielok
Additional content according compo rules: Music
Format: MultiColor


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Monroe 6569 by Diggr
Format: Charmode


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Asteroidmine by Grass, code by Cruzer
Format: MultiColor


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The Raven by Dane
Additional content according compo rules: Dark red and dark grey are laced
Format: MultiColor


---
CARGO by Twoflower, code by Cruzer
Additional content according compo rules: Music
Picture format: MultiColor, 4-colors, Colorscheme is matching Charmode


---
A Kind of Magic by Yazoo, code by Axis
Additional content according compo rules: Music, scrolltext (can be disabled by pressing spacebar)
Picture format: MultiColor
 
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2011-05-14 10:12
Sander

Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 496
It doesn't feel good to see some people play down on the importance of the subject. Real pixel artists DO care.

The following text is from the Pixelation forums, an active pixel art community with a lot of talented people, like Helm and Ptoing. Which shows how this subject is being dealt with by people who're serious about pixel art.

Quoting pixelation forums rules
Rule 2: Do not rip artwork. Ever!

Always clearly state what your references were in making a piece. If you sketched in pencil, color-reduced to 1bit and then went to work on it, okay. Ways like this are completely accepted and nobody's going to shout at your for it, but it's good to know anyway. If you stole somebody else's artwork, 1bitted it and then submitted it for critique, not okay. If caught red-handed, by moderators or users, and the case is clear you ripped, you will be banned and forgotten forever. Other similar instances of fraudulent behaviour like posting other people's artwork without permission (regardless of them being edited or not) or jobs without delivering the promised payment will reap similar rewards.

Rule 3: Post only pixel art.

Now this is a bit of a controversial subject, but it hopefully can be cleared out at least so we can go on with our business here: Pixel Art, is art where there's specific attention paid to the fine manipulation of picture elements. It deals with the informative quality of specific, single pixels. If the art you're about to post has not been pixel-pushed on that level, don't bother. Automatic AA, soft brushes, filters, smudge tools, all are indicative of index-painting, or at least dirty-tooling, but do not always mean your art will not benefit from pixel-level critique. If you've made something using some of these tools and then you're able to reign the piece in by optimizing the palette into using the best possible amount of colors, went in and pushed single pixels until everything is right, then it's probable we'll be able to talk about your art and how it can be made better. Always be clear of how you made things, only post concept art when it's relative to a pixel-art piece you've made and never never try to decieve us. As above, workstages and process animations are optional, but always welcome.


One could argue these 'pixelation forum' guys are way to anal about things, but i feel they're completely on spot. (as for comparison: The CSDb crack standards).

Quoting Digger
Now, the trick is how do you squeeze thousands (if not million) colours palette into 11 colours (hires/multi char mode) and still preserve the high quality of the original image.(...)

This reasoning is beyond me... This makes it sound the compo was about doing the most optimized conversions.

Quoting Celtic
and lastly: besides 4 or 5 extremely gifted pixellers like mermaid and i think STE , I think loads of people use this method. I am wondering who would like to claim or state that they never do this r have done it.

Quoting Digger
I (sadly) think the golden era of hand pixelled gfx is gone forever due to at least two reasons:
1. Life is faster – people are spending too much time playing with useless apps on their mobiles hoping to make their life actions more efficient (= waste of time and illusion IMHO but that's another topic) ;-)
2. Effort/reward ratio – no way you can hand pixel 2 screen pic in 12-14 hrs, even with limited palette and sophisticated pixelling tools (brushes, dither box, etc) – and it took me similar time to code the editor (http://c64.blog2t.net/slixed). I mean it's A LOT of time in REAL LIFE (yes, we're no longer in our teens).
3. There are great conversion tools (i.e. Timathes), which we haven't had in late '80s/early '90s – you HAD to pixel by hand (or use "analogue" conversion methods)

I'll give you the only reason - it's this attitude. And that attitude has become too common in the scene.

I feel such an attitude is disrespectful to pixel artists like Mermaid, Archmage, Saehn and quite a few others. Realizing these people could be participating in the same competition, and doing original artwork.

I'm very pleased to see this discussion rise again, and for the first time - things seems to change a little.

(Please note, this is not about the double screen competition in particular. Props to Veto And Enthusi for taking action regarding this discussion.)
2011-05-14 13:54
Deev

Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206
Quote: I'd like to add that yes, i did a copy, but before enterring i explained to veto how i did the pic, and asked if it was appropriate. Also my pic is tagged on c64pixels with the original artist and production company so it can easily be found.

Yes, i copy, and therefor a pic by f.e. Grass is way more impressive then mine.

I would like to state that most 98% of the pics i do are wirejobs/converts etc.etc. I still spend hours and hours on them refining, adding pixels, removing pixels, etc. but i wanted it out there so i dont get accused for anything in the future.

and lastly: besides 4 or 5 extremely gifted pixellers like mermaid and i think STE , I think loads of people use this method. I am wondering who would like to claim or state that they never do this r have done it.


If only 4-5 people are actually pixelling whilst everyone else is just wiring and fixing, I would feel very disillusioned with this scene.

I'd like to state that it's certainly not a technique that I use regularly. This was a pic for a magazine outfit and is clearly a copy, but I hope the following will show it was definitely pixelled by hand (even if it makes my pixelling look a bit inaccurate!)



Not having a go at you personally, I respect you've been quite open about your methods. As Mermaid said, don't give up on compos, just try to do things the other way! Plenty of people would be happy to give you some tips I'm sure.
2011-05-14 16:54
hedning

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4732
What Sander said. A very important post.
2011-05-14 17:59
chatGPZ

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386
Quote:
I'll give you the only reason - it's this attitude. And that attitude has become too common in the scene.

double plus plus plus.

its exactly that attitude that lead to establishing the mentioned release standards, indeed. and i would more than welcome if similar standards could be established for other stuff (although i can see how there its somewhat harder to do).
2011-05-14 22:25
Alias Medron

Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39
I ve read the above comments and oppinions..
so here are my 2 cents..

Putting a copy in a compo is fine with me as long as you copy it by hand
(remember all those Boris Valejo pics in compos in the late 80's and 90's?)
BUT, just converting a nice picture and repixeling it isn't enough (for me anyway)
to enter a compo. Even worse if you don't mention your source and don't give credit to
the original artist.

I made a couple of copies that way too but never for a compo and one will see from
a mile away that it's not pure handpixeling if he takes a look at my other pics..
I mean.. 100% perfect match is almost impossible without wiring (ok.. except if your
name is STE or Joe).
Some time ago i criticised Joe for his almost perfect pictures and called them wired
until i found out that he's not from this planet and analyses things (shapes, forms,
light etc)in a different way than most people do. And even if they were partly converted
the source was original (his own photos, sketches etc) and that's a completely
different thing. I bet though he never just "repixeled" a wired image, at least not a compo
entry..

To summ it up..

Is wiring and converting ok?
Yes if you mention the source and the process and the compo allows non original and
non handpixeled pictures.

Will i vote for a converted picture?
maybe.. but if there is another not so great pic in the compo that is pure handpixeling
i will give it a better vote just for the effort.

and now i'll go back in my cave..
2011-05-14 23:46
FATFrost
Account closed

Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 211
There was once a saying ' the best artists, are the best thieves'

Competitions are meant to be a test of skills, to prove the sceners power...

Converting a pic to show your skills and win a compo is like tracing a picture when you were a kid and telling everyone you drew it.

Sometimes you get found out, sometimes you get away with it.

But you have to keep living the lie, and one day you will be tested to reproduce the same due to your previous efforts, can you produce the goods then?
The secret is in the small details...... you are as strong as your weakest point and in some pictures the smallest pixel skills shows the secret of the true artist.

but whatever.... the governments are still corrupt and so is this 'SCENE'....

/FF
2011-05-15 00:06
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292
http://www.google.no/search?q=andy+warhole&hl=no&client=opera&h..

One of my fav artist in all times... he used wires to the max! I never felt less of him because of that... I just admire him huge... But there is a difference... he did what he copied into something greater than the originals in a way... Not just a lame convert to a really bad graphics card on a pc from 1982... he were smart, using less to be greater or at least different...
2011-05-15 00:09
STE'86

Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274
100% perfect placement of elements is available to all c64 artists using any app with layer support.

using the "rotoscoping" technique and either a "draw over" or "draw under" method.

in the draw over method you simply, as the name suggests, size your source image and place where required on one layer and the overdraw that image on a layer above to create the required element.

the draw under method is slightly harder to get used to where u trace the element to a layer below the source image which you cant see. harder to master at first but it does have the advantage that you aren't obliterating the image you are reproducing as you work.

in zoom mode VERY accurate pixel placement can be obtained.

It has to be said that this method does not do all the work for you, but it does take out alot of the donkey work and free up the artists time to concentrate on shading and form, rather than trying to figure out "what the bloody hell is wrong with that eye"

rotoscoping used by the animation industry as a vaild tool can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotoscoping

and another variation used by artists called epidiascoping can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidiascope

doing this stuff "back in the day" purely by eye was much harder work i assure you. but i can also assure you that had we had this ability we would have damned well used it.

I see rotoscoping as a modern variation on the old "grid tracing" technique just a hell of a lot faster.

I know many of the pixel purists are horrified by such words of "heresy" but in my experience, those who act like that have never done their art "for real" against a real life deadline. to me and i would guess most of the "old guys", anything goes except machine/application conversion and "digital" reproduction.

Steve

edit: one more thing, suspect any artist who says they don't use techniques like this and whose images match their sources at more than 80%. they are lying to you :)
2011-05-15 00:17
PAL

Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292
example... If one can just alter the contrast to get a good shape I would do that instead of sitting and handpainting the shape... today, 2011 I will do that much faster... and then work from what I lay out in photoshop and get a nice base to be creative on... I will not go back to squared paper and a lighttable and then putting it in by hand on the c64... that is just too lame... but as I said in my earlier post... a stright convert is lame, a worked art inspired by another one is for me ok... not all are mermaids with their own style and their own arsenal of characters and so on... not all do work that way.

In film it is always done from some ref images of film... you film something and then work from that in order to do it greater...

BUT... the lame one to one convert with thimantes or so is just boring to me...

STE... yes you are all right my man...
2011-05-15 05:59
JackAsser

Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014
@PAL,STE: Agree with you that one should use all available tools etc. but you're missing one crucial point about this thread and that is if one should be allowed to submit such picture to a compo or not.
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