| |
titan_ae
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 46 |
C64 Reloaded ? (in Hardware)
Someone else noticed that 1st April entry at c64.sk about a new C64 in actual Hardware made by individual computers ?
Thought about an April joke, but then i saw this :
http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/C64_reloaded
Anyone up for this ? :) |
|
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i can assure you that its real :) for some more info (and a lot of craptalk - be prepared) check here (german) |
| |
Grue
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 161 |
For me it looks like pointless, no real advantages over original one. I would have wanted to see buffered sid noise mods and extra sid socket for stereo tunes. Devias sid mod looks way more interesting that this product in that area.
There seems to be extra components near video output so there might be some advantages over original design in video output quality.
Also I'm concerned about 9vac line for userport as theres just +12v dc going in.
So, my question is why? Explanation about broken pcb's is just silly :D |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
its a pretty cool project. |
| |
Dano
Registered: Jul 2004
Posts: 231 |
what grue said about sid. i'd love to see a board with optimized sid sound quality, just like all those improvements lemming and devia incorporated in this. or maybe even included to be able to switch between 2 sids.
optimized video output is very nice though.
is this gets 100% compatible without flaws or compromises this might be interesting. |
| |
WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Why not some clips so it's easy to add a heatsink (with springclips) to the sid/vic? :-)
these things i mean :
 |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:Also I'm concerned about 9vac line for userport as theres just +12v dc going in.
all voltages are there. i am curious though: what is it that you will use at the userport that needs it? :)
Quote:So, my question is why?
"To celebrate this, Individual Computers has prepared a limited production run of a new C-64 motherboard."
Quote:is this gets 100% compatible without flaws or compromises this might be interesting.
being 100% compatible is pretty much the only "must have" for this product. it is also why jens is very reluctant in doing any significant changes to the original circuit.
(i have updated that wiki page a bit if anyone cares :)) |
| |
AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
Is the 9VAC a true sine wave, or a crappy square one?
I might be interested in a board, but only if support for a second SID is added and the VSP-fix actually works. |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
Quoting Groepaz(i have updated that wiki page a bit if anyone cares :))
Absolutely, please keep us updated. Details on the hardware VSP fix would be interesting too. |
| |
Mr. SID
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 424 |
According to Jens:
Quote:Der VSP-Bug ist ein address-hold-time-violation bug. Der Fix ist nichts weiter als die Stabilisierung der Adressen rund um die fallende Flanke von RAS.
The VSP bug is an address-hold-time-violation bug. The fix is just stabilizing the address bus around the falling edge of the RAS signal.
According to him it's not feasible to add that fix to an existing C64, as you would have to socket the RAM chips and also get some signals from the VIC. Nothing that would be an easily installable kit. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:Is the 9VAC a true sine wave, or a crappy square one?
i cant answer that (will ask), my guess is "not exactly sine, but not exactly square either" due to the circuit used to generate it. you are making me curios again though: what is it that you want to use that requires a perfect sine? :) |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
Quoting Mr. SIDAccording to him it's not feasible to add that fix to an existing C64, as you would have to socket the RAM chips and also get some signals from the VIC. Nothing that would be an easily installable kit.
Sounds pretty feasible to me actually, but I can see why you wouldn't sell it as a kit. |
| |
Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172 |
What about HDMI output? Would that be prohibitively expensive? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:What about HDMI output? Would that be prohibitively expensive?
short answer: yes
long answer: there are two ways to do this. the obvious one is to add a circuit that converts s-video to hdmi. this is far from trivial, rather expensive, and the image quality will still not be perfect. also existing converter devices can likely do it better than anything we could add (at reasonable cost). the other one is to have a vic-ii replica that runs in parallel and outputs the picture, ie the chameleon approach - it wouldnt be cheap either, it would change the original circuit significantly, and most importantly chameleon already exists. |
| |
Grue
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 161 |
Now that would be great if chameleon had hdmi instead of vga. Its so damn annoying to find vga display that actually can do ~50hz without any hiccups, hdmi is much more flexible on that area.. |
| |
Jupp3
Registered: Feb 2013
Posts: 6 |
Quote: Quote:What about HDMI output? Would that be prohibitively expensive?
short answer: yes
long answer: there are two ways to do this. the obvious one is to add a circuit that converts s-video to hdmi. this is far from trivial, rather expensive, and the image quality will still not be perfect. also existing converter devices can likely do it better than anything we could add (at reasonable cost). the other one is to have a vic-ii replica that runs in parallel and outputs the picture, ie the chameleon approach - it wouldnt be cheap either, it would change the original circuit significantly, and most importantly chameleon already exists.
Quote:What about HDMI output? Would that be prohibitively expensive?
No. Not at all. You can buy cheap SVideo to HDMI converters from f.ex. DealExtreme for few dozen euros (I guess), no use putting something like that on a motherboard and pretend there would be "real" HDMI output.
If you need one, buy one that's good enough for you, and don't force everyone to pay :-)
The real issue here is, when image comes out from the video chip, it's in svideo format. It's already as good as it can get (without new gfx chip or such). C64 doesn't "downscale" it in any way (although it definitely adds some noise...)
Also the reason why only C128's native modes are available via RGBi. |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
Any news? |
| |
ruk
Registered: Jan 2012
Posts: 43 |
Got this reply from vesalia.de
Quote:
News on the C64 Reloaded straight from the horse's mouth. i.e. Individual Computers:
"The second prototype is still pending verification, and this will most likely remain that way while the USB module is on top priority. We'll do our best to show the second prototype of the C64 Reloaded at the Gamescom in August (http://www.gamescom-cologne.com/en/gamescom/home/index.php), but there's
currently no release date for production units."
|
| |
Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Anyone know what the "VSP fix" consists of? |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
whats up with this ? would be cool to have this new motherboard with the new case for a brand new c64c with a 1541u =) |
| |
Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 427 |
I saw these boards at X'2014 too there were still prototypes though but looked very slick. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
it should be available by end of march.... fingers crossed :) |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
great, count me in :) |
| |
Conjuror
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 168 |
With Sid-Fixer this will be the ultimate party machine. I'm in! |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 1408 |
Ooh, I wonder if it will have consistent colour phase.. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
and by end of march we ment april!
https://icomp.de/shop-icomp/en/33/items/first-c64-reloaded-boar.. |
| |
DjS
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 48 |
Tss.. Bidding starts at 200
Way too steep imo. I can buy 8 2nd hand 64's for that kind of money |
| |
MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1074 |
Jens posted on EAB that the regular price for a board will be 159. |
| |
WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 899 |
Does anyone know if there will be any more reloadeds? My poor 64 is simply dying on me :-( |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
the current stock is no more, *afaik* - but it was selling so good, i dont see why jens wouldnt do another production run. |
| |
TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
indeed, jens vaguely announced, time after time anyone who wants one, could be provided with one. big secret mongering *shrug* about production figures, though, plus you had to be very lucky or patient or both last year to grab one. but afair there's some function on icomp shop that informs registered customers if reloaded is available again.
BTW inspite of some minor complaints, all in all, I'm quite happy with my reloaded, though in a way I envy future customers, since I guess, before they produce again, they're gonna fix some teething problems of earlier production, e.g. the clock generator replacement which I had to replace by an original MOS 8701 against spooky cold starting behaviour. Great thing for soldering failures (like myself) is, almost everything of importance is socketed, plus many other things like old/new SID/VIC filters/voltage issues can be done via jumpers |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
for the most part it would need cost reduction, the current production process simply involves way too much manual work... |
| |
Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
"but afair there's some function on icomp shop that informs registered customers if reloaded is available again"
I have used a webpage change monitoring tool for that, for free. luckily I was right infront of my lappy when it got online, so I was probably one of the first, if not the, in that batch.
now it is happily collecting dust on the table :) |
| |
-trb-
Registered: May 2008
Posts: 9 |
Quoting Groepazthe current stock is no more, *afaik* - but it was selling so good, i dont see why jens wouldnt do another production run. Oh, nobody here mentioned yet that there actually will be two new versions of C64 Reloaded available. Both will be completely new designs. One of them will be based on Turbo Chameleon 64 but will offer more C64-like interfaces. In the far, far future also complete C64 computers could be sold under the Commodore label as Jens stated in a German podcast. |
| |
Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
Is there any way to buy a C64 Reloaded even if being too lazy to follow manufacturing batches? I check the shop time to time and always see that "Out of stock" message. I'm sure i'm gonna miss it when it will be available again. Couldn't you sell some at upcoming X? No ready units at all? :) |
| |
AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
Reading through some compatibility issues between Drean, NTSC etc I've found this thread and I wonder if someone actually tested (besides Jens of course) compatibility level of this board considering minor fixes introduced like the VSP fix. The history teaches us that even very minor, carefully planned changes can have some unexpected side effects. Actually I am interested is there a way to detect c64 reloaded board from the software. The note about Mssiah makes me wonder if this is possible. Can anyone also tell more about Mssiah protection that makes this cartridge fail to start without reset button on those boards? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
the mssiah checks if the reset line goes high (inactive) until a certain time after powerup. now, the reset signal in the c64r is generated by a small microcontroller, and it will infact first be inactive after poweron, and then go down to reset the c64 - which is what makes mssiah protection fail.
the VSP fix just fixes some timing details between the VIC and the RAM - which is completely transparent to software too. |
| |
TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
wow this (reset line) in fact is new to me and might also explain some other spooky behaviour of C64R |
| |
AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
Quote: the mssiah checks if the reset line goes high (inactive) until a certain time after powerup. now, the reset signal in the c64r is generated by a small microcontroller, and it will infact first be inactive after poweron, and then go down to reset the c64 - which is what makes mssiah protection fail.
the VSP fix just fixes some timing details between the VIC and the RAM - which is completely transparent to software too.
Thanks for the reply Groepaz. For a sec I've thought that Mssiah developers found a new interesting cartridge protection scheme based on software tricks. In such case however it is clearly hardware implementation.
Coming back to my main question: is there a software way to detect c64 reloaded board? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
i very much doubt it.... but, please come up with one :) |
| |
AlexC
Registered: Jan 2008
Posts: 298 |
Quote: i very much doubt it.... but, please come up with one :)
First of all I'd need to have one which I don't.
So this is just a theory or rather start of an idea that could show further directions to someone who actually have it: how about using:
lda #0
lax #$ff
considering that it is also voltage dependent. Could it be that c64r is more stable in that area due to stable voltage supply to cpu? |
| |
JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: i very much doubt it.... but, please come up with one :)
I'm sure LFT will exploit some VSP-crash bound to happen on any real C64, but not on the Reloaded. ;) |
| |
TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2219 |
JackAsser: then lft is the one to code a Reloaded detector :D
pseudo-code:
if lft's code works branch "C64R not found" |
