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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
Best music composer/editor
I've decided after all these years to start making some sidmusic, so the question is:
What do you consider to be the best composing/editing program for making sum choons at the moment? |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
I prefer working in the JCH-editor. It doesn't have the best docs, and can't do a couple of tricks, but I've grown accustomed to it.
Otherwise, I'd say Jeff's CZP-editor beats them all, hands down. |
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Matt
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 598 |
Try VoiceTracker.
It's a neat tool to compose around ;) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
What type of editor? DMC 4 and 5 are ok and SYNC is also nice. SDI is also very powerful if you want tracker styled. |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
For beginners try the cybertrack by noname. links available at this database |
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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
Thanks a lot, i'll test those proggies out and start tormenting my c64c's SID pretty soon.. Hopefully some of the tunes get even released.. :) |
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heinmukk
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 6 |
always used dmc4.2 and dmc 5.1 and now trying to compose
with x-tracker by sonic/smash.
where can i get Jeffs tracker CZP? never heard anything
about this prog before... |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Jeff's new one is not finished and as far as I know he past versions were never spread. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: I've decided after all these years to start making some sidmusic, so the question is:
What do you consider to be the best composing/editing program for making sum choons at the moment?
Why? Is it because you're intending to compose music? Well, I love the DMC V5.0 music player. I first composed music with USA Music Assembler V1.0, then Music Mixer, but my favourite is DMC V5.0, and DMC V4.0. Cool composing tools. |
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Dosoo
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 32 |
The very best editor ever created is Sadotracker by Cadaver. No zombie -looking ready effects and no overwhelming jewels to make it look better. Only what is needed is included. And the routine takes so little raster time. |
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Finn
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 15 |
HOW about more speed editors wich is the best
i mean is there an editor that does not need gate in the paterns to work properly .i know of one that only did the frq's
in more speed a 1003 1006 player that did not need gate in pats to work ok .can some one explain to me how these things work is it about timing? and is there an editor that does frq and pulse control in more speed but still works like it should. and better is there an editor that lets you choose per sound the speed?? it realy matter how much raster time it uses.... its all about quality...!!!
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
For party music entries, size and raster time does not matter. for demo uses and a number of other things it is but some players are designed to use so little raster time, they have inadequate control and quality. You will notice most of the top musicians use certain players that use somewhere between $18-$30 raster lines. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2969 |
Fanta still keeps using JCH's editor. But I started coding a player/editor too which I'll try to make first-class. Furthermore, it'll combine less usage of raster time with advanced functions known from SDI, JCh and their likes. |
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Luca
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 178 |
I want to add SidWinder to the editor's list: it's quite simple but not banal, and for singlespeed tunes it never goes over $17/$18 if you avoid guru calls.
I abitually use the Plus/4+SIDcard version of it, but there is a newer version for C64 that works really fine and semms to be much more userfriendly. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Hehe, that Sadotracker comment (and reading a bit of the SidWinder docs) made me think.. Now I actually realize why I've preferred writing selfmade routines/editors and why they are usually quite simple: because I wouldn't be able to learn anything more complicated :)
Though, the obvious result is that composing of any advanced music should not be attempted in them :) |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
If you want music editors in the tracker-style, there are OdinTracker, CyberTracker (by me - sorry for selfpromotion, but it's irrelevant who made it) and SoundTracker (<- old and bad) + possibly some more i don't know of. (you can find the linx here in CSDb) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
dont forgot the infamous soundmonitor :o) while its player sux hard (uses LOTS of rastertime, peaks to >$70 or sth), it still has its own unique sound and a VERY good interface, supports midi etc pp....you gotta like numbers though to use it ;) |
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Tempest
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 4 |
Try Aleksi Eeeben/CNCD's John Player
www.student.oulu.fi/~aeeben/ |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
John Player rules... :-) |
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fenz
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 15 |
future composer |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3051 |
DMC5.0+ (for composing... let's not talk about size of the music okay? ;-))) |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
BASIC V2.0 :) |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Any ML monitor (preferably not using A command at all) |
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f33zy
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3 |
I've been experimenting with GoatTracker on PC (huh... yeah)... on native c64 I use DMC. The JCH player lso looks pretty neat, but I didn't figure out how to use it 'ntill now. |
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Richard
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 621 |
Quote: DMC5.0+ (for composing... let's not talk about size of the music okay? ;-)))
Muchly agreed.
DMC V5.0 has to be one of the best music editors I ever used. I used this composer to do the intro music for the game 'Heavy Metal Deluxe'. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
How do you define something as best? It'd be more of favourite...
If you like trackers then JCH and SDI come into contention with SDI being a lot more complex to use. If you only want something for music entries in compos and like a more visual thing then Cybertracker.
If you don't want a tracker styled then maybe DMC4 if you don't need the power of DMC 5.1x+. DMC 5x.x series have more power over various elements but doesn't have the nice sound restart of DMC1-4 (all seem to be exentions of them selves, more of sub versions, not true versions.). If you need more control and effects than DMC5x.x then there is SYNC if you have AR/RR or something (loading tune bugs) and I like this.
Some use Odin Tracker, Sadotracker, Goat Tracker (Win32), Music Assembler. Maybe if you want genuine old feeling then use some old editor like Future Composer... Try as many as possible and see what is most comfortable and can do what you need. If you aren't sure if it does something then ask.
Personally I recomment SDI or SYNC if you have time to learn the systems. If you are after a simpler tracker (still powerful enough for most) then JCH. Personallu I think DMC5x.x biggest problem is raw memory saving method which results in huge work files. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
So I guess nobody ever tried out acidtracker ... does any of the other trackers have a complete online help inside? Well, $d000-$e000 was empty, so AcidTracker has all of it. I made it to get rid of the bad habits of DMC5 - if we have a filter for 3 voices, well, then let's use it on any of them whenever needed. You want to switch off a voice? Have an instrument that finishes after a certain amount of arpeggio-steps? Ever had the choice, in which direction a vibrato starts? AcidTracker can do all of that! Whatever, just try it out, maybe the layout somehow reminds of dmc5, but the player is much faster and can do much more - find a buggy version @ www.c64-resource.de, the final fix is on my workdisc, still needs sum more bugfixes, but i worked with it since 1999. Just contact me ... |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
oh, what I forgot: did it happen to you that an instrument sounded clicky after you built it? Well, probably it did something to the sid so the hard restart didn't work right. For this case Acidtracker offers 4 different types of hardrestart, and you can specify the frame numbers to execute each step of the HR.
The 4 Types:
0=HR like Jeff's player does
1=HR like DMC5 does
2=HR like DMC4 does
3=HR like I did (I found out that KB used the same technique in his SV1.6-player)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Can you reveal these types, or are some of them topsecret?
I know of
1) Put $0000 to ADSR and clear gatebit, let this go on for 2 frames, then init instrument on 3nd (waveform+gateon first, then instrument's ADSR)
2) Same as 1), but let ADSR $0000 only go on for 1 frame
2b) Like 2), but put $00 to both wave+ADSR for sharper sound
3) Put $08 to waveform, set instrument's ADSR, put $09 to waveform, then init instrument's own waveform next frame (John Player way)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, they were actually explained in Acidtracker docs. Nice. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Btw. quite an ideal music-editor & playroutine could be realized by extending the wave/arptable to contain "commands" to modify any voice register & to set modulation of frequency,pulse,cutoff etc.
Each channel could have even 2 or more of these wavetable "threads" in execution, resulting in more flexibility (for example thread 1 -> notes/waves, thread 2 -> pulse)
Then the hardrestart could be customized exactly to the composer's liking, without any modification of the playroutine, just different data.
The sectordata could then have commands to change any thread's programcounter, to start for example a vibrato or slide, or execute single commands without disturbing the PC.
The problem is that the identification of these commands (with a jumptable, likely) takes quite a bit rastertime (at least for my liking - I tested it), so it's more optimal to have a hardcoded behaviour. |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
I like your ideas, Cadaver. Would be nice for competition entries and demo parts with rastertime to spare. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Thanks!
Funny, now that I think of it, a musicroutine (especially one containing many tablebased effects) can be thought of as a collection of specialized virtual machines, and the problematics (like precaching/dividing operations on many frames for efficiency) resemble CPU design somewhat... :) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Yes, and why not if it gives you optimal control over what to do with the SID? |
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White Flame
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 136 |
I was thinking along the same lines for my next minigame. You could do almost any effect if you just add subroutines and loops as part of your normal note data, and both the player and note data would be quite compact. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Whiteflame + Cadaver : I would like to know more about what you mean... Sounds interesting (whatever it is) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
"What they mean" - correct me if I'm wrong - is an approach to music editing where the wave/freq-table would also be able to carry out various effects, instead of there only being an effect table jumped to in sequences.
Or have I got the wrong picture? |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Cadaver: did you put down some ideas or did you just crunch some of the info in the atmds-docs into
>> 2002-10-21 21:04 Cadaver
>>Btw. quite an ideal music-editor & playroutine could be
>>realized by extending the wave/arptable to contain
>>"commands" to modify any voice register & to set
>>modulation of frequency,pulse,cutoff etc.
??? I mean this sounded quite familiar to me.
Also I think what you explained afterwards, sounds like the way cybertracker handles its instruments (if you think hex instead of ct's cool grafix for the siddata) |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Oh my god, I know, where I read stuff like this before...i wrote it myself. after having most of the work on atmds 3 finished, i found some new ideas and c0ded some fragments of the AcitTrackPlayer 4.x.(I've been looking thru my disx here and found a backup copy of the source, pretty well documented concerning the ideas and data structures. the c0de itself is not very much documented, though) - if someone would be likely to use this to make a new veryvery good tracker/demo music player, I would release this c0de. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
St0fF: I think this idea was mainly influenced by the "weird/unusual" C64 music editors at "The Fridge", that made me think of the essence of instrument data
Cyberbrain:
I'll give you an example of one of my experiment-playroutines. If the "delay" parameter is 0, it means multiple instructions are fetched on one frame. And this example contains only one execution thread (because pulse execution is "limit"-based, like in Goattracker)
Del. Cmd
0 Gate $00 ;Executes and $fe on the waveform
0 ADSR $00 $00 ;Hard restart
1 Pulse $40 ;End first frame
------
0 Pulselim. $20 $a0
1 Pulsespd. $02 ;End second frame
------
0 Wave/Note $81 $C8
1 ADSR $02 $8A ;Set instrument's ADSR
------
1 Wave/Note $41 $00
...
...
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Ok, do you want to take the approach of making another new musiceditor with those ideas, Cadaver?
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
No, I don't think I'll use time for that, at least for now. Right now I need an ultrafast playroutine (10-11 lines) for MW4 musics, and I'll do the editor for that. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, that "need" was a bad choice of words. The fast (quite traditional) playroutine is already written, but of course some final optimizations are to be done.. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Hmm, i guess then my sources will get quite dusty until I might use them for MonsterTracker. |
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francois prijt
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 1 |
Hello ppl :D
It's me francois prijt, i was just curius about the scene now at the c64 and i see its still alive and thats really cool, i was a member of :
Audial Arts, Flash Inc., Hitmen, Ruthless, The Ruling Company.
It's bin a while ago i know, but i saw this topic about music editors.. i found something i did in '91 and can be found here : François Prijt [under the name 'music user disc'] hope it's helpfull :D
nowadays i am doing hardcore gabber. Just look at my site :
http://www.djchosenfew.com/
Greets to all those people i knew back in da good old days!
Maybey i will make a new sid tune 4 fun :D
Greets & Respect,
Francois Prijt. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
to Heinmukk:
Just find me on #c-64 and ask me for it.. I recently did an update on the docsfile and did a very simple packer for it.
The player used in the packer doesn't have all the features the editor-player has though, as I removed some things that I never use anyways.
But I have to say this, the editor has a few bugs, so I would recommend to wait for my new editor which will be relased under my Viruz label. Still quite some work to be done, but atleast the advanced player for it is pretty much done, there will be a standard one too, which basically does what JCH v20 can do, and possibly a bit more.
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: I've decided after all these years to start making some sidmusic, so the question is:
What do you consider to be the best composing/editing program for making sum choons at the moment?
The best editor is inevitably the one you are using - as you evidenced by the fact that people have collectivly named everything except soundmonitor, you're best bet is to sit down for half a day, and suck a bunch of them and see. (tho this is entirely useless to you, i am deeply in love with my heavily modified TFX, but to everyone else in the world, it's just another shitty sector editor on the pile :-p).
Seriously, sit down for half a day with everything in this list, and just play, and see where things fall. You'll be much more productive for it.
-- jj |
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Intensity
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 337 |
Quote: Hello ppl :D
It's me francois prijt, i was just curius about the scene now at the c64 and i see its still alive and thats really cool, i was a member of :
Audial Arts, Flash Inc., Hitmen, Ruthless, The Ruling Company.
It's bin a while ago i know, but i saw this topic about music editors.. i found something i did in '91 and can be found here : François Prijt [under the name 'music user disc'] hope it's helpfull :D
nowadays i am doing hardcore gabber. Just look at my site :
http://www.djchosenfew.com/
Greets to all those people i knew back in da good old days!
Maybey i will make a new sid tune 4 fun :D
Greets & Respect,
Francois Prijt.
Hey Francois! I loved some of your Hardcore-Tracks you made years ago - in those old Thunderdome-Times ! I have even made a cover of your track "Name Of The DJ" On the C64!
Check your CSDB Private Posts! I have sent you a message!
Great...
Arman |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
having been into gabber in the early 90s myself, i found it quite stunning to see that francois is actually chosen few. needless to say that i was thrilled when i found out about it just 1-2 years ago at discogs.com.
wtg heer prijt. =) |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: |
ok, back to the topic (or not, either way).
i remember that we were talking about a collaborative jch-only effort at the time the sc3 was running. i'm still up for that, mainly just to see what people are capable of doing in jch these days - and to share my and others instrument-tricks. (leave out the idea of that pesky jch-ripping tool which still refuses to work for me.) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
Yes, I'm all for sharing some of my ideas around the JCH-system. Might even sit down to write docs for the 4x-player I used in Cycle. You can edit all of it in the JCH-editor, and the total r-time usage of all 4 calls is something like $10 lines. Hopefully it can give you ideas if you're considering doing (yet another) minimal music routine.
No, seriously, I really need to look at that idea about an improved JCH tooldisk. Will keep you posted. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well, the most important things to run in multispeed is the wave+frequency table(s). At some points you can do interesting stuff by running filter+pulse in multispeed too though. Doing vibrato in multispeed might to most people sound like a really bad idea, but trust me, you can use that for very nice details too. :-)
Still I think it is great that people do new players and/or improve old players.
And to answer the question about what the best c64 music-editor is, I can only say following: It's individual from person to person what makes a nice editor. But when people ask me I recommend the "JCH" system and "Sid Duzz It".
Some people use players with really simple pulse- and filter-programs, but if you want to do great sounds you need a more advanced system for that. Forexample by doing more advanced pulseprograms you can add more feeling to a pulse-lead and so. Also a player should have more hardrestart settings.. or atleast just an on/off option for that. By not using hardrestart on leads you can also get a more expressive sound.
Gotta go now,
Keep the SID alive - It still has lots of possibilities :-)
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
Jeff: just to mention the tricks that i've never seen to have been used: wahwah, noise-vibrato - effects utilizing the voice3-output in $d41b and $d41c |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
I tried wah wah for a sort of Bruce Lee kinda tune, since I had not heard that before aswell. It's not too difficult. Noise vibrato sounds interesting. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Choose a player that is made or updated within the last 4 years, and learn to use it.
I'm a fan of SDI myself, because it's easy to use and can do multispeed and has tracker.
I used JCH too, but i was blindfolded when doing sounds, and the packers i tried made bugs in my tunes.
If you can get what you want from one tool, use it! the more you use an editor, the better you get to tweak the features of it.
I think, the best players, must be JCH, Jeff, SDI, DMC.
Tinnitus has made some astonishing tunes, and the Asterion Tracker is a great piece of work.
But I think JCH/SDI is easier and can do the same.
Nomatter what, you will try something else when you hit a 'wall' in the editor you use.
Try all, and find your own preference.
Or just try and use soundmonitor, like I used to.. :-)
You can easily make something, but sound-capabilities are low.
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korshun
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 11 |
yep, and soundmon routines used to need minimal rastertime |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
and sound monitor songs always sound jerky because there's a lot of jitter in the sid register writes (due to the huge rastertime the tunes take). |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Stoff: Actually you don't need too many fancy things... just use the regular things in special ways. :-)
A simple example of a quite fast player, nothing special, but has a bit of more "intelligent" filter+resonance control.
http://www.6581.dk/camelot/x-large5.d64
made 2 versions as I wanted to try to cut down the rastertime a bit more.
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Any idea when that link is going up? :)
Argh, the S/M torture of being told of a fast musicroutine but being unable to check the code :(
EDIT: Aha, checking now.. |
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THE TEA DRINKER
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 39 |
hi Optic.
There is many tracker/editors for C64, more you try is proberly best to find what you preffered. There is proberly advanges and disadvanges in all of them in someway.
Someone will say it's weak because of there is limited with commands/features use another one and others because they use alot of rastertime used another, in general I think more you try is better, but if you want some advice.
I would go after some of these: JCH, Future Composer, Soundmonitor or simular like Rockmonitor/Drummaker/Noisetracker, Soundtracker 64/Cybertracker it's just a few names Odintracker maybe try different versions of these, good luck have fun hope your find your tool to create music, and maybe you should also think of why create music on C64 or SID and what should it be used for.
But I hope to hear some tunes from you ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: I've decided after all these years to start making some sidmusic, so the question is:
What do you consider to be the best composing/editing program for making sum choons at the moment?
Optic, so have you found an editor you like, and started to make music ? |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Some music tools here:
http://www.atlantis-prophecy.org/onslaught/php/c64misc.php |
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Optic
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 28 |
Tried out CyberTracker first, but came to conclusion that albeit it has a great set of options combined with a smashing interface, it's a bit cumbersome at the state it's in right now.. (updates coming in someday?) and still lacking a decent packer... |
