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DCMP
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 59 |
C64 Animated Demos. Undesirable?
Hello,
Since I became involved in the scene rather late, I wonder about the animated demos paradigm.
In the past I noticed people did not consider animations as demos. Should there be a separate competition or CSDB tag for animations? What are the main objections to seeing an animation as a demo? Does that involve the idea that many are perhaps developed on another platform and then transferred and thus is less work than a lot of code? If it is all created on the c64 and a lot of work for the graphician to implement and design I don't see why that counts less than the coder doing most of the hard work.
Perhaps demos have been mainly about coders showing off.
I'd like to know people's views on this.
(Yes, I had several ideas of animations I'd like to do on the c64) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
(on the c64) demos are mostly about pushing the HW technically. you can get a lot of positive feedback tho, with good design/ideas & music. like the explogind headed anim from mermaid & ninja (brief bursts of happiness) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Yes agreed. Animations on the c64 (particularly lots of frames etc) would be an accomplishment on the c64 or/and whatever machine is used to squeeze the data. Talking about animations. CSAM V2 due to be released shortly. Screenshot below.
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
actually I have an animation demo idea in my mind as well (a small one). I don't want to categorize it like "one-file demo". But since it contains some animations, music and some code tricks, I have no other choice I guess.
so, I kinda agree with you DCMP but I don't know if scene gods allow us for this new category. ;) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
You certainly don't need anyones permission to make a demo and looking through the database you'll notice, only a small percentage (~5%) of demos ever released "pushed the hardware technically" ... a demo is whatever a person wants it to be.
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Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG] |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Reasons why animations may have a bad reputation:
- There have been animations looking like hardcore effects (3D, for example). This is mostly considered cheating unless you did something very nifty in compression or loading.
- Once the animation-engine is done, it is usually easier to flood out animation based demos than effect-based ones. And just very, very few people really care about stuff like proper flow, etc.
Personally, I'd welcome a well carved, original(!) animation based demo once in a while. Only converting videos from the net may be acceptable as an interlude, but not as a whole demo. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Let's take a classic example - the Juggler demo by Tony Crowther. Is it an animation because it just shows a few frames? Or is it a technically challenging demo because it uncrunches screens in real time?
I don't see how animation should be considered separate - Reanim8d is another good example of technical achievement. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Thumbs up for animations on C64 :) the only field that I can really try my skills codewise - cannot imagine if anyone took that away from me :) Especially anims in 4k, that's soooo much fun :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Ich remember Street Tuffs 'Rohrschach' at MO7 causing different reactions. It was an obvious case of a well planned/designed video-codec which I think fits in the demo-categroy quite well. Switching between 3 koalas much less so ;-)
I think it will always be subject to debate - just as any demo btw. Modern new effects might also only be cool if you understand the issues. On c64 you after have to understand WHY it's cool I think ;-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
Quote:Reanim8d is another good example of technical achievement.
i wouldnt go that far :) its just 2 blocks of code and tons of data =P
infact the only reason for making this demo was that we were pissed about others using anims for "effects". (take a close look at the transition textscreens =P) |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 705 |
Even more so for that Sabrina demo. C64 code is only switching $d018/$dd00 and barely nothing else, although, the PC processor was responsible for choosing the charblocks. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Design is everything
Method is irrelevant |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
Btw I'm not planning to make a demo with a fullscreen animation engine. What I want to do is nothing new. Just animate some parts of the graphics using sprites + something extra. That's why I don't want to call it a demo. Actually without animations, it can be considered a graphic release. If I add a few lines of code and make a fade in/out effect to a graphic release, does it count as a demo? What if I add a few sprites and change sprite pointer address. You see my point? |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2925 |
You're free to call it whatever you want ... it's amazing really, all these people that create awesome stuff and they want to be categorized, just like good little slaves.
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Crimson Twilight Dev Updates [C64 CRPG] |
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Zaz
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 33 |
DCMP, you should just go ahead and create what you want. It's the result that counts, meaning the reaction from the viewer. Demos are not all about coding, but about what can be artistically presented on the screen and in the speakers in any way possible. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Undesirable is the wrong word. Done right, animations, at least for me, are desirable, so long as they fit in with a production as a whole. Im fine with that. An animation should have a purpose, be entertaining, offer something more than just a bunch of ugly wired fames.
Off the top of my head, demos that use animations that work well include:
Dutch Breeze - Cow
I found it really entertaining. It worked well as a loader.
Dutch Breeze - Turn Disk
A neat animation, that's more interesting than most Turn Disk parts.
Deus Ex Machina - Turn Disk
A well calculated animation, that worked well
Coma Light 12 - The End
Im not a huge fan of ported animations. Although Oxyron got away with it, with the dancing woman.
Spasmolytic - Ray traced balls
Its a rare thing for ray trace animations to look good on C64. Censor some how managed it, by adding various colour effects, and well timed music.
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Even simple animations can be very effective: BergenMeeting 2004
Thing is, due to the limited memory of the C64, an animation quickly turns into something like an animated GIF: fun to watch for 2 seconds, than you've seen it all and it starts to become boring. :-)
Skeletor Movie blew me away, the first time I saw it.
As did Juggler Maddness, but after a few runs, you know it. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
C64 animations can be cool technical peculiarities, just like C64MP3 from Mahoney. I'd recommend anyone actually wanting to listen to MP3:s or watch animations to get a PC though, as the results'll be much better on that platform. The novelty of watching an animation on a C64 quickly wears off, once you've marvelled at the replayer code...
I remember I thought raytraced animations etc were cool back in 1992, but those were different times. Of course animations can still be well integrated design parts of a demo, like in "Brief Bursts of Happiness"... It's all about doing it tastefully, and with originality. Just like with any other effect, really. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I was quite disappointed that Outside Preview never got finished. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5086 |
this anim is technically still shocking to date imho: Zone of Darkness Preview
and also the music / design etc is wonderful. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Anims or vector gfx? |
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Nitro
Account closed
Registered: Aug 2008
Posts: 13 |
I think it's a clever sprite routine + depacked animation frames. |
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AmiDog
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 97 |
I spent some time writing an anim player for the C64 a couple of years ago. Haven't done anything to it since. The goal was to have a relativly long animation streamed from a 1541 at a good framerate. FMV (You need to press fire on port 1, not 2 as the player tells you...) |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
@ AmiDog: nice!
@ DCMP: where are you? :-) |
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Dane
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 421 |
The 'discofloor' in EoD is an animation. Kind of. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I think that is even entirely different subject - using animation/frames in demo effects ;) |
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DCMP
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 59 |
@ Mace I was waiting for more comments.
I agree with several here that an original design is the most important. And I agree that perhaps it would not be nice have animations as a trend, just like the Vallejo trend that lasted for years. Then again, animations can be quite different in style. So Zaz said it well.
Quote:
Demos are not all about coding, but about what can be artistically presented on the screen and in the speakers in any way possible.
Brief bursts of happiness is my favorite. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Non-ported animations can be quite awesome and very tricky. Only a few people seem to know how to do it correctly, one of those is Mermaid.
Check her running panther in the disk note of Speed (amongst others in that collie) or the little croc in Vandalism News #52 as examples.
Animation can be used in other directions to, check out this humorous anti-Crossfire intro in Vandalism News #18. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
@AmiDog: I really liked FVM. Specially buffer status bar is so nice. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Darn, you really don't need anyone's permission to create anything. Just create it already! :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Darn, you really don't need anyone's permission to create anything. Just create it already! :)
She asked for opinions, not permission. :) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 946 |
Quote: @ Mace I was waiting for more comments.
I agree with several here that an original design is the most important. And I agree that perhaps it would not be nice have animations as a trend, just like the Vallejo trend that lasted for years. Then again, animations can be quite different in style. So Zaz said it well.
Quote:
Demos are not all about coding, but about what can be artistically presented on the screen and in the speakers in any way possible.
Brief bursts of happiness is my favorite.
Don't worry, it won't become a trend to do animations, because not many can do animations on c64 that are cool. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
I'd really respect some great drawn animations as part of demos. As Hein mentions, not many are probably capable of doing really great ones. So it would be interesting for me to see. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Yep, same here ... *cough* ;) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Why the cough? He said "drawn" :D |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-bIHhWOMc :) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-bIHhWOMc :)
Respect! |
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Cresh
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 354 |
Wow! Made my evening!
Faster than Oxyron! ;) |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: Try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ-bIHhWOMc :)
Cool. The part feat. the 'scene' panning down the buildings works really well. I always had plans for such ideas, but they never got off the ground. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11360 |
its a shame to see it like this and not in a proper demo, really. |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 |
Quote: its a shame to see it like this and not in a proper demo, really.
no.. welcome to 2010, hype, social media, etc.. this is it
@sander: may i #kiss you, hug the demo, and #heinholt too? this is fucking great! can't wait! :) |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 |
and serious... looking really forward to this demo! |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
I'm sorry - but that project has stopped some months ago, so i decided to upload the material to youtube.
As for the 'Oxyron'-part; That was supposed to the be the 'greetings', but it only shows one example name in the preview. |
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TPM
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 110 |
ok :/ |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Bloody hell, that was great stuff there. Shame it's canned. :-( Why, really? |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
the bike riders only have 1 leg, how do they do it?? :) |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Quote: the bike riders only have 1 leg, how do they do it?? :)
Lamer: having a body part and especially a limb so disabled as to impair freedom of movement
(not really, i just thought of that ;) |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: I'm sorry - but that project has stopped some months ago, so i decided to upload the material to youtube.
As for the 'Oxyron'-part; That was supposed to the be the 'greetings', but it only shows one example name in the preview.
:( Knowing that some of the parts actually have been implemented I really hope u're joking and that you guys will surprise us at X2010! |
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Quote: :( Knowing that some of the parts actually have been implemented I really hope u're joking and that you guys will surprise us at X2010!
My jokes are bad - but not this bad ;)
I put my money on you for this compo. |
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Wisdom
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 90 |
Probably not so relevant, but the hires logo animation in Anarchy #1 depacks in real-time (albeit in a simple way). It was "calculated" on the C64 with a tool I have programmed.
The reason was that I had this ambition to do such an intro, and it was not really feasible to do it smoothly with real-time calculations, so I did it as an animation, and just did not care about hearing the possible negative reactions. In the end, it turned out that people liked it, though.
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DCMP
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 59 |
Nice unfinished piece Sander.
I should check up on threads more often. |
