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Bastet
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 88 |
4k game coding compo anyone?
Just gathering if anybody has interest in a 4k game coding compo.
It should be made from scratch using your favorite assembler.
Everything has to be done inside these 4k, no packers.
The only thing that dosnt count for the 4k limit is a basic loader, this makes the life of the judges easier.
So, what i need are some trustfull judges and people who want to participate.
Deadline would be the 15. January 2006.
Any interests?
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
no packers? so, where do you draw the line of what's a packer and what is not. For instance, if I make some tiny code generator that generates tons on tables, it's a form of depacker.
I recommend everything has to fit in 4096 bytes (excluding start address) no matter what. |
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Bastet
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 88 |
That what i meant, 4kbyte of assembler code.
You do not need to count a basic loader so that you dont scrap 30 or so bytes for some user friendlyness.
$0800 - Basic Loader + 4 kbyte of your code, nothing more nothing less.
EDIT: Ok, less allowed ;)
I think we should discuss what is allowed and what not.
IMO, Codesize is limited to 4 kbyte, useage of full memory for tables, yes, but still no packed code! |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
But honestly, if someone want to use exomizer then let them.... :D If you on the other hand makes your own packer specially made for your kind of data which will yield perhaps twice as good result as exomizer, then it's just 1337.
4kb of binary code which is a game, then exactly what kind of 4kb is up to the coder IMO. If someone wanna bloat the first 1Kb with a depacker, then let them. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
Bastet: So people are not allowed to represent for example a series of colors (used by their code) in a smart (compact) way? (No packing!) Everything has to be maximally bloated? :)
I think Jackasser is just right when pointing out that there is no such limit. There is always a trade off between whats represented as code and what's represented as data. The only possible rule I can think of is to prohibit the use of someone elses packer for packing your own data.
Just doing some forum posts because I'm bored at work atm. I won't participate in any case, so perhaps I shouldn't even open my mouth in the discussion. :)
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: Just gathering if anybody has interest in a 4k game coding compo.
It should be made from scratch using your favorite assembler.
Everything has to be done inside these 4k, no packers.
The only thing that dosnt count for the 4k limit is a basic loader, this makes the life of the judges easier.
So, what i need are some trustfull judges and people who want to participate.
Deadline would be the 15. January 2006.
Any interests?
The no packers rule is stupid - but files must be executable, of course. THat said...
There is already one of these right now (http://ffd2.com/minigame), who are plannig to start earlier next year, ostensibly.
There is also one other compo which I'm not supposed to talk about (but that I'm not involved with the organisation of) ostensibly coming later this year, but I don't know if they'll get their act together since the main organiser of that just got a new job.
Of course I actively support this, and if you do organise it you can expect go(v) to get behind it. But did you consider not limiting it to 4k? Because that's been kind of done alreday....
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Burn
Registered: Jun 2005
Posts: 12 |
There are several rules for 4K-Intro-Compos. Why not taking those? - 4K is 4K regardless of its kind. You don't have to reinvent the wheel! |
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carlsson
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 41 |
If you wish to deinspire (?) people from using packers, you should consider a 1K game compo instead. The MiniGame compo as linked to above, has run both classes for a few years. Although Wyndex' xip will shave a few bytes off a 1K entry, traditional packers often would be a waste on the tight code and data required within 1K.
By the way, a Basic stub is no more than 12 bytes, possibly even less if you know what you are doing. |
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Bastet
Registered: Jul 2005
Posts: 88 |
I talked with Copyfault and i cant say anything versus packers anymore *g*
But still one exeption versus other compos and i hope this will not be any problems for you all. The BASIC-Loader does not count as code. Its just better than some SYS somewhere command |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
..so if my BASIC loader was really badly coded and accidentally happened to create loads of garbage data that my badly coded game code accidentally happened to use in some ways, that would be OK?
MHO: Limit the filesize to 4k and just state that it must be RUN-able from BASIC... just like the 4k demo compos, to avoid misunderstandings and potential "cheating".
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
This reminds me of a 64k pc intro from my old group Analogue, done by Hugo. He had managed to create a fantastic piece of work with lots of raytraced stuff etc, and a great tune by Jeroen Tel. The only problem: it needed several minutes of depacking before it actually started .. suffice to say that it didn't score very high in the compo .. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Haha this remembers me of some 40KB compo entry I saw once. In reality it was ~70KB, but the coders modified the file entry on disk so it would show 40KB when the directory was displayed :D |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
carlsson: the shortest BASIC loader is 10 bytes. That includes sys line and three trailing zeroes. Should load address be counted as part of BASIC loader?
If someone can start program with single digit SYS address then it can be shortened further :) |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Hm... Why not contribute to http://ffd2.com/minigame/ intead?
Its a pity when too many compos arise and the entries get worse. Well, I admit minigame-comp-deadline is pretty soon :)
Also I find 4K slightly too high. ALOT can be done in it and its hard to judge or optimize 4k of code (imho - im not that experienced).
Personally Id prefer 2K or something. Well or 1k :)
And I really think all that should count is the overall size and it should SOMEhow start in basic. Bei it basicheader or some weird autoload. Every other rule would simply make things complicated I think.
Also nice would be 4k but then the rule to code some AI in it as well :)
I miss that alot.
Maybe some tron-bot-compo?
Seen that in c once and it was fun and less common...
Whatever - have fun,
enthusi |
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carlsson
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 41 |
I wonder if it is practically possible to make a whole game in ML in such way that you can execute it through the USR() function? :-)
10 POKE785,low:POKE786,high
15 A=USR(0):PRINT"[CLS]YOUR SCORE WAS: ";A
20 WAIT198,1:GOTO15
That's a rather long and obfuscated Basic "loader". |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
TNT: ofcourse load address counts to file length. I mean, you don't exclude exe headers on PC either, or hunk headers and reloc tables on Amiga. |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Load address of course is part of file length, but can you count it as part of *BASIC* loader as it's present even if you autostart with $0326 or some other vector?
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