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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
the eidolon - 3d engine in detail
well, this production is not really scene one but i always wondered: how could that be possible that such an oldie is so fast being realtime? what kind of calculations are made and is it 3d at all? |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Jammer, fast 3D in Eidolon?! Man, turn off the warp mode in your emulator. :) |
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Alias Medron
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39 |
afaik it's not real 3d.. it's based on fractals just like Rescue on Fractalus..
edit:
take a look at these videos : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0DT-QcfpjE&feature=related |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quote: Jammer, fast 3D in Eidolon?! Man, turn off the warp mode in your emulator. :)
jailbabe >> mind that it's 1985. and nowadays not many realtime routines are much faster considering it covers about half of the screen. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: jailbabe >> mind that it's 1985. and nowadays not many realtime routines are much faster considering it covers about half of the screen.
It's hard to compare with today's routines. Those early routines are just plots, nothing more. However, I find it extremly impressive even so. But it has nothing to do with filled vectors and EOR-fillers, nor linedrawing etc. It's a different kind of technique, not sure about the details though. I know it suffers from rounding errors when you get too close to a wall (u get those classical jagged edges). |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
i'm just impressed how fast the plot drawing is, especially that it uses fractal stencils. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I guess fractals are used to draw those dotted 'lines', so you get the same shape no matter of orientation/size without storing/scaling the dots individually. visibility in some cases works like in voxelscape engines I think. if a displayed dot is lower than the dot to be plotted then it wont get plotted. (check the game you'll see its trivial)
filling: only the floor is filled, mostly using the attribute memory (char based) then another routine takes over where the ceiling/floor meets, to take care of the details.
interesting to note that stunt car does the same, but it fills the sky like this. basically it draws up the road with lines and the horizont, then fills the sky char by char using the attribute mem, and where the horizon/sky meets it takes care. this is the reason that when the horizon is tilted the vertical part of the road is not drawn correctly. |
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Wile Coyote
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 646 |
Quote: jailbabe >> mind that it's 1985. and nowadays not many realtime routines are much faster considering it covers about half of the screen.
thanks, Just watched parts 1 - 12 :)
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Quote: jailbabe >> mind that it's 1985. and nowadays not many realtime routines are much faster considering it covers about half of the screen.
Don't be mean at me Jammer my man, I was just kidding... :'( :)
But '85 or not, it still feels ugly and cloggy to me. Then again, I was never easily amused by games, except sidescrolling jump'n'runs. A 3D shooter using the engine from Feeling Retro would be amazing, though. Would that be possible in any way?
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
feeling retro is a vector anim :) the eidolon is pretty top notch technically regarding c64 capabilities or even 3d fx's in demos. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
is it possible to make such fractal-based engine e.g. 2x faster? :> |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
Quote: is it possible to make such fractal-based engine e.g. 2x faster? :>
not fractal but 3D:
Castle Master!
Castle Master + Keymap (v2)
Uh, you meant two times *FASTER*?? =D
Well the Eidolon used a similar approach and Peiselulli
patched it for DTV. It is way faster there at least:
The Eidolon [DTV] |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quote: not fractal but 3D:
Castle Master!
Castle Master + Keymap (v2)
Uh, you meant two times *FASTER*?? =D
Well the Eidolon used a similar approach and Peiselulli
patched it for DTV. It is way faster there at least:
The Eidolon [DTV]
ok, he did a speedup for dtv and i guess took advantage of faster clock. i'm rather interested in speed improvement on stock c64 ;) |
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yago
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 333 |
In case you want to see REALLY fast 3d gfx (1984):
Encounter
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quote: In case you want to see REALLY fast 3d gfx (1984):
Encounter
neat but it's not as complex as eidolon, though :) |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Christopher Jam did a quite fast rendition of a 3D-engine, using the map from Driller in Effluvium. Should be considerably faster than the original implementation. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Christopher Jam did a quite fast rendition of a 3D-engine, using the map from Driller in Effluvium. Should be considerably faster than the original implementation.
Considerably faster yes, but still crawling dead slow. I think faster is the wrong term, less dead slow would be more appropriate (don't misunderstand me now, I personally like Effluvium very much!) |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Är du så jävla bra själv då?
;)
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2014 |
Quote: Är du så jävla bra själv då?
;)
It'll never be "quite fast" on a C64, but maybe "not THAT slow"! :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I've heard rumours about something that I would actually describe as "rather fast". :) |
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Peiselulli
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 81 |
Quoting jammer ok, he did a speedup for dtv and i guess took advantage of faster clock.
This is a popular misunderstanding of the DTV. The DTV has the same clock as the C64, but in my release I use the skip, burst and disable-badline feature. |
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Jammer
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 1336 |
Quote: Quoting jammer ok, he did a speedup for dtv and i guess took advantage of faster clock.
This is a popular misunderstanding of the DTV. The DTV has the same clock as the C64, but in my release I use the skip, burst and disable-badline feature.
as i've read out, it's equipped with 32 mhz cpu emulating all c-64 chips at their original clock speeds thus i apologize for my mistake ;) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 337 |
Quote: as i've read out, it's equipped with 32 mhz cpu emulating all c-64 chips at their original clock speeds thus i apologize for my mistake ;)
What's the best place to read about it in comprehensive way? Also is there some place where you can buy modded DTV? Modding it myself is out of the question. |
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Peiselulli
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 81 |
@jammer : look in this way, you are right. Looking from the programmers point of view, it has about 1Mhz. You don't need to apologize for this ...
@jetboy
Modded Devices - no idea ...
Best Documentation so far : DTV_Programming
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