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crl
Registered: Mar 2020
Posts: 20 |
The first demo to feature...
There are quite a few landmarks in the demo history of the C64.
One of groundbreaking moments for me was the invention of FLI, which first appeared in Beyond Force's Charlatan.
Does anyone know who cam first with the following inventions, and what other inventions are in your opinion groundbreaking?
* Open sideborders
* DYCP
* DYSP
* DYPP
* Hardware scrolling |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2038 |
Quote: It’s pretty damn close if it’s not. I code all my demos on PC in emulator and don’t believe I’ve seen an issue yet where something looked different on final testing on a real C64.
The pixel pipeline is what makes some fx 4px delayed etc. It’s notoriously hard to spot any differences and even harder to exploit it. Crossbow did however in his almost general upscroller in the lower border. Also effects like 49px or was it 50px wide sprites are subject to this etc. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1807 |
Quote: Hehe ofc not! Would be nice to have a proper die-reverse engineering of it. Also the internal 40*12 bit memory and how that is updated needs proper explanatiom.
That would be interesting, but a visual6502 style die-reversing isn't enough. A lot of the effects have to do with drive strengths of individual transistors and the fact that NMOS drives asymetrically (pull-ups). |
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The Human Code Machine
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 113 |
Quote: First 50fps 304x192px (visible) 3-screen diagonal bitmap scroller (Delirious 11) ;-)
As JackAsser says, though, all these things I don’t see that we can claim - without having 10million different categories.
Did that 2 years earlier with streaming data from disk in Concert by Performers. I did scroll the black borders too. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11510 |
Quote:It’s pretty damn close if it’s not. I code all my demos on PC in emulator and don’t believe I’ve seen an issue yet where something looked different on final testing on a real C64.
the things that are not perfect yet probably do not really matter to any real world code. and you see related differences between C64s (VICIIs) too. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 757 |
Quote: Did that 2 years earlier with streaming data from disk in Concert by Performers. I did scroll the black borders too.
Ah, I actually thought that one was doing the "stepping" method of scrolling - 1 pixel horizontally one frame and 1 pixel diagonally the next? So that the "diagonal is aligned to the double pixels...
The harder hurdle for full 312x192 diagonal scrolling with infinite repeats is of course squeezing it all into memory. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 2038 |
Infinite circular scroller, say no more! ;) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3083 |
Quoting JackAsserWhere is the line. Everything I code I always aim for some world’s first I'd say the line is between discovering/inventing (hardware-centric) techniques that serve as primitives/building blocks for effects, and those effects that "merely" build upon/combine these primitives.
So i'd file things like open (side-)borders, hardware scrolling (VSP), 4x4 chunky FLI, Graham-flex/zoom, Ninja NMI handler dispatch, N+1 sprites over FLI, diverse sample-replay methods, etc. under the former, and the various niche records and firsties mentioned here under the latter. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 757 |
Quote: Quoting JackAsserWhere is the line. Everything I code I always aim for some world’s first I'd say the line is between discovering/inventing (hardware-centric) techniques that serve as primitives/building blocks for effects, and those effects that "merely" build upon/combine these primitives.
So i'd file things like open (side-)borders, hardware scrolling (VSP), 4x4 chunky FLI, Graham-flex/zoom, Ninja NMI handler dispatch, N+1 sprites over FLI, diverse sample-replay methods, etc. under the former, and the various niche records and firsties mentioned here under the latter.
Those are "just" hardware firsties though .. I'd also be interested to know the first DYCP, DYPP, etc .. it's not -all- about the VIC ;-p |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 3083 |
Quoting RaistlinThose are "just" hardware firsties though .. I'd also be interested to know the first DYCP, DYPP, etc .. it's not -all- about the VIC ;-p I specifically mentioned techniques not for VIC as well.
DYCP/DYPP etc. are instances of "soft" effects, as in of what you see, not how it's done under the hood. There are about a zillion ways to implement those, occupying different spots in the design space with the pros and cons those bring.
So yeah, that does escalate quickly when trying to enumerate any and all record and firsty. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 263 |
Hjørne Tilpasset Tekst Med Farve Cyklus (H.T.T.M.F.C.)
in Gammal Man from F*A*I*C. |
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