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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
Screen limits
Once when i got myself a C= monitor, I made some tests to see what the actual limits were. Keeping in mind all the bugs i left in Royal Arte, after this i would never have to leave any visual bugs because of not seing them.
But now in EMU-age, the same horrible bugs appear again in many demos. Vice only shows 272 x 384 pixels, and people appearantly start to think that's the way to go. And it suxx big time!
So when i found my old screen tests yesterday, i thought maybe i should put this up here. I also had some info about sprite-limits in the borders. Let's get started.
Screen limits
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Vertically:
First visible line: 8 (d012 = 8)
Last visible line: 12b (d012 = 2b)
That makes 292 visible lines totally.
Transfered to sprite positions we get..
spt-pos 12a: one line visible in lower border.
spt-pos 12b: one line visible in upper border.
Horizontally:
Left border: 48 visible pixels (6 chars).
Right border: 36 visible pixels (4.5 chars).
That makes 404 pixels, right.
Sprite bugs in left border:
All sprites invisible at positions 1f8-1ff.
spt7 invisible at pos <= 1ce.
spt8 invisivle at pos <= 1ee.
Sprite bugs in right border:
spt1 stretch bug at pos >= 14b.
spt2 stretch bug at pos >= 15b.
Bug above first line at pos => 163: spt 3,4,5.
Bug on last line at pos => 164: spt 3,4,5.
Ok. I think that's all. Does anyone have other specs? Please don't post if you have a lowsy TV-set, they always sukk. Did i get those sprite-bugs correctly? Sounds totally wierd :). And finally: DON'T RELEASE before you checked your demo against this spec >:E. |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 886 |
ppl can also use the HOXS emulator. I have it installed and it seems to be much better w0king than vice. This emu shows a lot more of the borders!!
But it's not as nice to work with as vice is (ie, no carts, no other nice tricks etc). So i only rarely use it to take a peep in the extreme borders.
Also, i remember Jackasser telling me he was working on his own VICE version with bigger borders.
btw, does anyone know if VICE/CCS do things like collision detection correctly in the parts of the screen they do not show? |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
A Vice with some extra border area would for sure be nice. It could be added as an option somewhere, e.g. Settings -> Video Settings -> Border Size (tab) where you could type it in manually, or choose some presets like "TV", "Monitor", and "Extreme Maximum Hyper-Borders." (504x312 so all cycles was visible.) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1726 |
Quote: @radiantx: I don't think that it makes sense to display the entire area. You will see a lot of border bugs which are normally invisible + most Vice users are gamers and not developers.
I still wonder: Most people in the scene have 1084, CM8833 or CM8833-II monitors. Why don't you coders use the screen adjustments to look into the borders?
I find bugs in the border very annoying! I was lucky when I got the TV-set for my c64, because it showed a lot of the border. Others were not so lucky. Nowadays there is no excuse. ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
sideborder stuff doesnt impresses me anymore like back then. Come on, adding a sta $d016 stx $d016 to your code is really so cool ? How about coming up with something new instead of putting one of the effects seen a thousand times before to the borders because thats so "cool" ? |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1726 |
Quote: sideborder stuff doesnt impresses me anymore like back then. Come on, adding a sta $d016 stx $d016 to your code is really so cool ? How about coming up with something new instead of putting one of the effects seen a thousand times before to the borders because thats so "cool" ?
Yeah, or this crappy sprites over x-coordinate 255 stuff. Just say no to $d010! ;)
Seriously though: Even though you have no border stuff it doesn't mean you can't set border colors a couple of cycles late creating a dent far left (or even a jittering dent). No reason for that, just check it. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Being a simple coder,I am not really looking forward to an improved Vice -stretching the border- version.
I had a very large TV in the 90´s showing a lot of ´extra border´ and I made a lot of simple stuff.
But when I started using Vice,I found that much was not coded that good (borderbugs everywhere).
What I am trying to say,is that a lot of people probably used a TV and hence,didn´t see the bugs happening in the (hidden) borders.
It will severely take down their worxx.
On the other side..
This will probably be an extra limit for the hardcore-coders amongst us.
Making things perfect will be quite a challenge. ;) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5028 |
tlr, well I cant be bothered to fix code for the 3-2 ppl who can see all the possible visible area on their monitors. doesnt worths the effort, as even I dont see that stuff on any display I have. how to fix it then ? I dont care. |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1994 |
Patching VICE to show all 312 lines was super simple, making it show them complete width was a completly other matter in which I failed utterly. The code was just so crappy and hellish I gave up. To fix the complete height it was just a simple #define that should be changed in some .h file in the vicii folder. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
I still think Vice should not be used to search for sprite-, border- and $D011 bugs because after all it is just an emulation and will not show 100% the real effects happening.
@radiantx:
No, you are totally wrong here. Sceners only do few bug reports, most reports are from gamers. |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
@Oswald: Making such a statement would definitely have defined you LAME 10 years ago. May it be that your 4-color tunnel is no problemo putting in the sideborder, it just adds a different bitmap and wastes some more cycles. But there are other kind of effects that are more challenging to put in the sideborder, which makes more sence. Hell, who cares about an emulator anyways!? I could do vith a Vice that displays *only* the sideborder, showing only black where all Oswald's effects are!! |
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