| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Event id #3365 : Lovebyte 2024
Lovebyte is coming :)
As the C64 is still underrepresented in this sizecoding-dedicated demoparty (a little less last year with my humble efforts ;) ), please consider joining the competitions with your tiny entries :) It would be so awesome to witness more Commodore entries from seasoned, active coders! Our platform really gives a nice challenge when it comes to those tiny intros ;) |
|
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Somewhat related, in my book, fwiw...
There should be some kind of fast-coding environment for C-64, like those things as seen on Byte Battle et al. (with Lua for TIC-80 and Pico8).
Proper platform for that, with editor overlay and all, would probably be Ultimate64 (or Chameleon).
Question, of course, would be about the language. Some kind of souped-up BASIC or more low-level ASM-like thing or in-betweenish Pascal-esque thing? Hmmm.... =) |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003 Posts: 183 |
Quote: Lovebyte is coming :)
As the C64 is still underrepresented in this sizecoding-dedicated demoparty (a little less last year with my humble efforts ;) ), please consider joining the competitions with your tiny entries :) It would be so awesome to witness more Commodore entries from seasoned, active coders! Our platform really gives a nice challenge when it comes to those tiny intros ;)
I've got one small (literally) entry ready for Lovebyte. :) Considering making a couple more, if I have time and ideas. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillThere should be some kind of fast-coding environment for C-64, like those things as seen on Byte Battle et al. (with Lua for TIC-80 and Pico8).
If I understand you correctly, that would be then treated like a separate platform, another fantasy console type... No?
Come on Krill, pure assembler, no basic sys line needed (in most categories you don't have to waste precious bytes on that), what do you need more? ;) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting FrostbyteI've got one small (literally) entry ready for Lovebyte. :) Considering making a couple more, if I have time and ideas.
Excellent! Last year I challenged myself to do at least 1 entry in every category, I highly recommend that approach ;) |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004 Posts: 1412 |
Krill, perhaps Woz's SWEET16, or White Flame's Acheron? |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillThere should be some kind of fast-coding environment for C-64, like those things as seen on Byte Battle et al. (with Lua for TIC-80 and Pico8). If I understand you correctly, that would be then treated like a separate platform, another fantasy console type... No? What made you deduce that?
I meant the "authoring" platform. Can perfectly produce binaries runnable on plain old stock hardware, of course.
Quoting wacekCome on Krill, pure assembler, no basic sys line needed (in most categories you don't have to waste precious bytes on that), what do you need more? ;) As if i haven't proven often enough that, i, personally, don't need more.
Quoting ChristopherJamKrill, perhaps Woz's SWEET16, or White Flame's Acheron? What about them? |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004 Posts: 1412 |
I believe we're all responding to
Quote:Question, of course, would be about the language. Some kind of souped-up BASIC or more low-level ASM-like thing or in-betweenish Pascal-esque thing?
..but now I'm not sure whether you were talking about the language being the one that competitors code in, or the one that the IDE is coded in. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Yeah Krill, I think your comment is a bit confusing, it seems. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillAs if i haven't proven often enough that, i, personally, don't need more.
So... what was the purpose of your comment? You lost me. For all platforms except fantasy consoles, we are talking about pure binaries... |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillAs if i haven't proven often enough that, i, personally, don't need more.
So... what was the purpose of your comment? You lost me. For all platforms except fantasy consoles, we are talking about pure binaries... Again, nobody ruled out binaries nor plain C-64 as a target.
It's just that Lovebyte, in my mind, is strongly coupled with fantasy consoles and their Byte Battles, which in turn is based on Shader Showdown.
I just thought it would be cool to have such a Byte-Battle-esque thing for C-64, too.
Quoting ChristopherJamI believe we're all responding to
Quote:Question, of course, would be about the language. Some kind of souped-up BASIC or more low-level ASM-like thing or in-betweenish Pascal-esque thing? ..but now I'm not sure whether you were talking about the language being the one that competitors code in, or the one that the IDE is coded in. That was about the former, the language to write the programs in.
Your initial suggestions were a bit confusing because no context was given, and i failed to make the connection because they don't really qualify as proper languages in my book, not for time-constrained live competitions, anyways. =) |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004 Posts: 1412 |
Ohhh! Ok this is getting more interesting now.
kind of envisaging a thing where you just drop code tiles into a grid now.. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillIt's just that Lovebyte, in my mind, is strongly coupled with fantasy consoles and their Byte Battles, which in turn is based on Shader Showdown.
For the oldschool it's not at all. The whole fantasy consoles part is least interesting for me, the intro compos are the soul of the whole thing, including cross-platform rivalry. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillIt's just that Lovebyte, in my mind, is strongly coupled with fantasy consoles and their Byte Battles, which in turn is based on Shader Showdown.
For the oldschool it's not at all. The whole fantasy consoles part is least interesting for me, the intro compos are the soul of the whole thing, including cross-platform rivalry. We still seem to be talking about different things. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillWe still seem to be talking about different things.
Well yeah, that's because I started a thread with an aim to try to invite people to more participation in the Lovebyte intro compos with more C64 entries.
You replied with something related to a possible C64-based platform for some fast programming, similar to the fantasy consoles. Excuse me if I find it a bit confusing. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekYou replied with something related to a possible C64-based platform for some fast programming, similar to the fantasy consoles. Excuse me if I find it a bit confusing. Sorry about that, didn't expect this tangent to go out of hand like that. :)
But regarding the thread's topic...
Quoting wacekincluding cross-platform rivalry. Uh, please elaborate. =) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillUh, please elaborate. =)
Well, you can easily spot historically a lot of entries from A8 and ZX, and very little from C64. Both A8 and ZX have some obvious advantages, for example having plot/line routines in ROM to be utilized. In our lovely machine you need to build things from scratch, which is obviously challenging sizewize. But we have an ace up our sleeve which is SID...
One of my motivators is to challenge the domination of A8 in those compos. A lot of entries, but not so many new ideas and a lot of repetition from previous releases. So that's what I mean.
On the other hand, I would like to contribute at least one entry on Z80, since I finally managed to learn the 3rd programming language (and I just need 17 more to be a real programmer, remember ;) ). |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekOne of my motivators is to challenge the domination of A8 in those compos. A lot of entries, but not so many new ideas and a lot of repetition from previous releases. I hoped to learn a bit more about the rivalry thing. :)
But the main problem of those tiny things is that they rarely, if ever, qualify as "demo" in my book (and intros aren't intros if they precede nothing).
That is, at least 3 "scenes" (or parts or pages if you will) plus actual music.
There's usually just the one effect repeating ad infinitum, with some minimal noise (if there's any sound at all). =) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillThere's usually just the one effect repeating ad infinitum, with some minimal noise (if there's any sound at all). =)
Well, multiscene intros are possible in 1k. In 4k they are very common. For the sound - you did not bother to check the releases from last year, did you? I did 32b with sound, and 1k with regular SID track ;) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekWell, multiscene intros are possible in 1k. In 4k they are very common. For the sound - you did not bother to check the releases from last year, did you? I did 32b with sound, and 1k with regular SID track ;) I said "usually". And yeah, i did watch Lovebyte last year.
Didn't say proper demo is impossible for these tiny things, either.
4K isn't "tiny" in my book, though. 1K is borderline. |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003 Posts: 183 |
Quote: Quoting wacekOne of my motivators is to challenge the domination of A8 in those compos. A lot of entries, but not so many new ideas and a lot of repetition from previous releases. I hoped to learn a bit more about the rivalry thing. :)
But the main problem of those tiny things is that they rarely, if ever, qualify as "demo" in my book (and intros aren't intros if they precede nothing).
That is, at least 3 "scenes" (or parts or pages if you will) plus actual music.
There's usually just the one effect repeating ad infinitum, with some minimal noise (if there's any sound at all). =)
My humble 2p: A demo is a DEMOnstration of skills (code, graphics, music, design, whatevs). A well executed tiny program, albeit with a single effect, is as valid of a demonstration of one's skills as a larger, more comprehensive demo. Hell, sometimes even more so, as cramming anything even remotely impressive to a few bytes if f***ing hard. Different kind of hard than building a two disk epic megademo, but hard nevertheless. Of course it is impressive when someone crams a multipart megademo into 1k or less, rather than a single part one, but that doesn't take away the single part ones' "demo" title. Multipartness (is that a word?) is just one of the variables of a demo amongst others.
Fully agree on intros though. It's a bit weird when small single part things are sometimes called intros if they are not introducing anything. :)
Re. C64 vs other platforms at Lovebyte, what I think Wacek is after is friendly rivalry. :) Mixed oldschool sizecoding compos have been typically dominated by other platforms, as C64 does have its weaknesses in this context, but there certainly would be enough skills on C64 scene to turn the tables if more of us would get into sizecoding. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Size restricted compos are not suited to compare systems though. I can see how that makes it not very interesting. |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003 Posts: 183 |
Quote: Size restricted compos are not suited to compare systems though. I can see how that makes it not very interesting.
Admittedly, platform-specific sizecoding compos are much more interesting (and fair) than multiplatform ones. Who knows, maybe aome day c64 will have ita own sizecoding party, or at least sizecoding compos at the usual parties. :) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting Frostbytethere certainly would be enough skills on C64 scene to turn the tables if more of us would get into sizecoding.
This. This is the whole purpose of my original post.
Quoting chatGPZSize restricted compos are not suited to compare systems though.
Why? If you take it seriously, maybe, but not if you're taking it as fun endeavor.
Quoting FrostbyteWho knows, maybe aome day c64 will have ita own sizecoding party, or at least sizecoding compos at the usual parties. :)
First we would need 4k to become a standard feature at C64 parties, which we still do not have. And for everyone to make a distinction between "crack intro" and "intro" (instead of doing those we have endless discussions if 4k should be called an "intro" or not because reasons), I know discussing semantics is always requiring less than actually creating something ;) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
*intro is improper name because not introducing anything, does not matter all other scenes are using it, we need to be special*
*not every trackmo has no dir and/or single soundtrack why should it be called trackmo*
*4k is not tiny, it's 4 times the size of 1k, therefore tiny is an incorrect term*
Semantic discussion is a bastard sister of procrastination ;) |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Quote:Why? If you take it seriously, maybe, but not if you're taking it as fun endeavor.
If comparing apples and oranges is what floats your boat - sure, go ahead :)
Quote:First we would need 4k to become a standard feature at C64 parties, which we still do not have.
Many parties have this though. And very often the compo is cancelled, because of not enough entries. Ppl won't suddenly make more 4k demos(!) because there are more compos for it. |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004 Posts: 1412 |
I mean, I'd love to see a c64 2k or 4k executable graphics compo. Even 8k could be interesting if anyone managed to shoehorn a FLI image in, with either an image cruncher or some drawing code and a model of some kind.
(and of course, really could have done with a 5k or 6k compo to enter Onscreen 5k into :D ) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting chatGPZMany parties have this though. And very often the compo is cancelled, because of not enough entries. Ppl won't suddenly make more 4k demos(!) because there are more compos for it. Indeed. And i sure as hell won't waste my next 4K for some online "party", because certainly the effort to produce a worthwhile one isn't "tiny", oh not at all. =) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
There is no 4k at Lovebyte, I don't get all the negativity but ok, fuck it, this post was pointless I guess. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting chatGPZQuote:First we would need 4k to become a standard feature at C64 parties, which we still do not have. Many parties have this though. And very often the compo is cancelled, because of not enough entries. Ppl won't suddenly make more 4k demos(!) because there are more compos for it.
Many parties? Not really. Recent X was the first X with 4kb AFAIK. The amount of entries shows you that it's not a standard yet. It's a bit of circular logic there ;) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekRecent X was the first X with 4kb AFAIK. The amount of entries shows you that it's not a standard yet. It's a bit of circular logic there ;) X-2018 had a 4K compo as well. 6 entries then and 5 this year is pretty good, though, no?
The classic release venue since at least 1997 have been the big all-demoscene Easter parties, and i see no reason not to release a C-64 4K there these days.
That said, again, 4K is really not tiny (no 4K compos at Lovebyte, as you have noted) and it's already quite well-established in the C-64 scene (CSDb lists more than 500 releases).
Not sure i follow your reasoning for more 4K compos at parties just to pave the way for more tiny-demo (<= 1K) compos? :)
Quoting wacekThere is no 4k at Lovebyte, I don't get all the negativity but ok, fuck it, this post was pointless I guess. The negativity in my post followed your border-line ad-hominems implying people were lazy and like to discuss semantics rather than produce, while in fact they do produce, just not for the platforms, venues or categories you'd like them to. =) |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003 Posts: 183 |
I'd personally love to see tiny compos (1k and less) being introduced to either established parties, or a dedicated C64 sizecoding party. Or both. :) As mentioned, 4k is quite a lot in the right hands, but it'd need to have really killer effects, be multipart etc. to really impress people, which would take a lot of skill and effort to develop, so many would probably just skip 4k and concentrate on making a demo of unrestricted size instead.
Whereas in 1k or less, even just a single clever idea can turn into a very nice compo entry, and perhaps take less time or at least skill to work on, and be more approachable to us somewhat beginners.
As an added bonus, such tiny compo entries don't usually require much showtime, anything from a few seconds to few tens of seconds is usually plenty, so the compos would run quickly, making it easier to fit them to the party schedule. |
| |
ChristopherJam
Registered: Aug 2004 Posts: 1412 |
Quoting wacekThere is no 4k at Lovebyte, I don't get all the negativity but ok, fuck it, this post was pointless I guess.
Nah, I appreciate this post. Thanks for bringing the situation to our attention, there's certainly an underappreciated opportunity for our favourite platform to shine there. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Quote:Many parties? Not really. Recent X was the first X with 4kb AFAIK. The amount of entries shows you that it's not a standard yet.
X had it before. Breakpoint and Revision (and iirc even Symmek) had it before. The Party had it before. Other smaller parties had it before - but then almost always the separate compo was cancelled and entries merged into the regular compo - which might be why you don't remember it.
And like Krill said, its well established. Its just that most people would rather make an unrestricted demo - for the reasons already mentioned. Making an interesting 4k is hard and takes lots of time and effort. Making an interesting 1k... ah well, its close to impossible hard, imho - i dont remember any :) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillX-2018 had a 4K compo as well. 6 entries then and 5 this year is pretty good, though, no?
So that's 2 compos in 15 editions, 11 entries in 28 years. I stand by my claim 4k is not standard yet. On the other hand, PETSCII in the last 2-3 years have become a de facto standard on most C64 parties.
Quote:quite well-established in the C-64 scene (CSDb lists more than 500 releases).
CSDb also lists 600 BASIC demos and 2000 PETSCII's. Taking into account how "established" is the first one xD, and that PETSCII is around since just a few years, I would say the numbers do not support the claim.
Quote:Not sure i follow your reasoning for more 4K compos at parties just to pave the way for more tiny-demo (<= 1K) compos? :)
4k is a gateway to smaller stuff, it was at least for me so the reasoning is personal experience.
Quote:The negativity in my post followed your border-line ad-hominems implying people were lazy and like to discuss semantics rather than produce, while in fact they do produce, just not for the platforms, venues or categories you'd like them to. =)
There was no ad-hominems, not offensive ones anyway, I never called you lazy and semantics/producing thing is just a simple fact. You replied in the "call for action" thread why there are one million reasons not to do it, maybe I should consider that aggressive and offtopic, but I don't :)
The thread is about C64 (platform), Lovebyte (venue) and tiny intros (category), so I don't care about how active people are on other platforms, venues and categories - that was not the topic, would you agree?
And I think you are taking too many things as personal attacks and becoming too easily triggered, have no idea why but it seems it's a bit your issue, especially in my threads having anything to do with coding. My view, I might be mistaken.
Quoting chatGPZX had it before.
See above.
Quote:Breakpoint and Revision (and iirc even Symmek) had it before. The Party had it before.
Those are multiplatform parties (it's 4k for C64 because there's 4k for all platforms) and yes, there was a moment on the edge of 90's/00's when C64 4k's they became a thing for a moment, and then there was like a 20 years gaping void, when at X2010 my 4k was in the same compo as "Another Beginning" ;)
Quote:which might be why you don't remember it.
You mean - which is why I remember it... ;) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillX-2018 had a 4K compo as well. 6 entries then and 5 this year is pretty good, though, no? So that's 2 compos in 15 editions, 11 entries in 28 years. I stand by my claim 4k is not standard yet. On the other hand, PETSCII in the last 2-3 years have become a de facto standard on most C64 parties. You cannot count like that. Since X started with 4K (and yes, by 2018, they were late to the party), there have been 5 or more entries per instalment. This is not half-bad any way you look at it.
PETSCII has been a thing since at least the olden BBS days, but only lately as staple compos at parties.
They are easier and faster to produce than worthwhile 4K demos, though.
Quoting wacekCSDb also lists 600 BASIC demos and 2000 PETSCII's. Taking into account how "established" is the first one xD, and that PETSCII is around since just a few years, I would say the numbers do not support the claim. See above.
Quoting wacekYou replied in the "call for action" thread why there are one million reasons not to do it I mentioned but a single reason not to, and that was re: 4K, which isn't a Lovebyte thing.
Quoting wacekThe thread is about C64 (platform), Lovebyte (venue) and tiny intros (category), so I don't care about how active people are on other platforms, venues and categories - that was not the topic, would you agree? Yes.
Quoting wacekAnd I think you are taking too many things as personal attacks and becoming too easily triggered, have no idea why but it seems it's a bit your issue, especially in my threads having anything to do with coding. My view, I might be mistaken. Feel free to point at those threads in PM, i cannot recall any other instances where you have been involved. Maybe you're mixing me up with someone else.
Quoting wacekQuote:Breakpoint and Revision (and iirc even Symmek) had it before. The Party had it before. Those are multiplatform parties (it's 4k for C64 because there's 4k for all platforms) and yes, there was a moment on the edge of 90's/00's when C64 4k's they became a thing for a moment, and then there was like a 20 years gaping void, when at X2010 my 4k was in the same compo as "Another Beginning" ;) What gaping void are you talking about? C64 4Ks have been a staple at demo parties throughout. Maybe not at C-64 only parties, but so what?
4K is quite well-suited for platform comparisons, at least a lot better than <= 1K.
And with 4K becoming a staple at C-64 only parties, what will likely happen is not more new C64 4Ks overall, but fewer at individual compos. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Multiplatform parties don't count somehow? OK. What a weird reasoning. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting chatGPZMultiplatform parties don't count somehow? OK. What a weird reasoning.
What a weird way to misunderstood a simple sentence. They are not representation if 4k is „established” on C64 scene, because they feature 4k compos for all scenes regardless. Is that clearer?
Or let’s try this: would you say lack of 2SID or PETSCII compo at multiplatform parties means it’s not an established category? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Are you trying to say 2SID is somehow established? wtf |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Jesus fuck, way to focus on one thing to pretend not to see the other one ;) forget the 2SID since you don't agree, what about PETSCII in this example?
And nevermind this whole discussion, let's have more Christmas demos, that will push the scene forward into interesting and exciting new territories xD |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
I skipped PETSCII to spare you the embarrassment of telling us how it doesn't count, when they have been merged into the ASCII/ANSI compo (together with Amiga BBS gfx) at Revision (where it's even called ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII), Evoke, and many others, for many years.
Quote:And with 4K becoming a staple at C-64 only parties, what will likely happen is not more new C64 4Ks overall, but fewer at individual compos.
That sums up the misconception in this thread quite well. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting chatGPZQuote:And with 4K becoming a staple at C-64 only parties, what will likely happen is not more new C64 4Ks overall, but fewer at individual compos. That sums up the misconception in this thread quite well. Please elaborate why you deem my assertion to be wrong. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
I don't :) The misconception is that "more compos" will result in "more releases". |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting chatGPZI don't :) The misconception is that "more compos" will result in "more releases". Ah yeah. Seconded. :) |
| |
Dwangi
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 130 |
Come on guys.. all Wacek wanted was to inform about an online event.
Then the discussion went elsewhere.
It is almost like the discussions we always have when there is a new Intro creation compo. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting DwangiCome on guys.. all Wacek wanted was to inform about an online event.
Then the discussion went elsewhere. Asking in good faith, which discussion points were raised in the OP? |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillAsking in good faith, which discussion points were raised in the OP?
"Join me in making sizecoding entries at Lovebyte" was the whole point of the original post. You made it a pointless, asenine discussion on different things. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting chatGPZI skipped PETSCII to spare you the embarrassment of telling us how it doesn't count, when they have been merged into the ASCII/ANSI compo (together with Amiga BBS gfx) at Revision (where it's even called ASCII/ANSI/PETSCII), Evoke, and many others, for many years.
OK, so I wasted some of my time to test your claim with Evoke.
All old webs for Evoke are available at https://www.evoke.eu/20xx/ or similar.
1997 - cannot retrieve compo rules, but no PETSCII entries
1998 - cannot retrieve compo rules, but no PETSCII entries
1999 - cannot retrieve compo rules, but no PETSCII entries
2000 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2002 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2003 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2004 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2005 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2006 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2007 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2008 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2009 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2010 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2011 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2012 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2013 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2014 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2015 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2016 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2017 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2018 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2019 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2022 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
2023 - no mention of PETSCII in ASCII/ANSI compo rules, no PETSCII entries
So, who's embarrassed now? Your claim, your example - your bullshit.
Revision - PETSCII allowed since 2017. Let us remember this party is existing since 1997.
Waiting for the "many others". |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting wacekYou made it a pointless, asenine discussion on different things.
It should say "it was made into a pointless, asenine discussion", it sounds too direct at Krill, which was not my intention. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting wacekYou made it a pointless, asenine discussion on different things. It should say "it was made into a pointless, asenine discussion", it sounds too direct at Krill, which was not my intention. OP was an advertisement and an invitation to join and submit releases, without any discussion talking points obvious to me.
So not sure what kind of discussion you expected to spring from this (if at all), maybe just various "Yeah! Count me in!" fluff posts? :) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekOK, so I wasted some of my time to test your claim with Evoke. You conveniently picked the most PC-centric with everything else an afterthought party of them all. =)
Quoting wacekRevision - PETSCII allowed since 2017. Let us remember this party is existing since 1997. Revision exists since 2011. Breakpoint was another party, as well as Mekka + Symposium.
Quoting wacekWaiting for the "many others". Deadline had PETSCII since 2014. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillOP was an advertisement and an invitation to join and submit releases, without any discussion talking points obvious to me.
I stated that C64 is underrepresented. That could be a hint on possible discussion topic ;) but to follow:
Quote:So not sure what kind of discussion you expected to spring from this (if at all), maybe just various "Yeah! Count me in!" fluff posts? :)
Yeah, exactly right, people who are interested to participate, maybe someone wanted to know some details (fe. if for C64 releases header/loadadd is included? is BASIC startline expected? those are important aspects when talking 16b).
By the way, there are "calls for actions" about most parties, Syntax, Mysdata, nobody has any problems with that - the only difference this was a post, not news on main page. Strange, no? |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillYou conveniently picked
I did not pick shit - Groepaz did, explicitly in his post, mention 2 parties and "many others". I took the one that has longer history under one name ;)
Quoting KrillRevision exists since 2011. Breakpoint was another party, as well as Mekka + Symposium.
The organizers state those are a continuation... sorry I don't have an PhD in the history of the German demoparties.
Quoting KrillDeadline had PETSCII since 2014. So let's assume we have 3. Yay! How many multiplatform parties are there? ;) <joke> I might guess there could be more parties with the overhead projector category </joke>.
But seriously guys, I don't have enough free time really to continue this discussion. I understand you don't care and won't participate. Fine. Let call this a time entertainingly wasted and call it a day. Thanks. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekmaybe someone wanted to know some details (fe. if for C64 releases header/loadadd is included? is BASIC startline expected? those are important aspects when talking 16b). Okay, so would something like Srpnsk [16 bytes] be a-okay with Lovebyte rules, and does the load address ($0082) count? :) |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
lol
Regarding Evoke: They were always open to accept PETSCII too. But there were no entries. Ever - Indeed. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillOkay, so would something like Srpnsk [16 bytes] be a-okay with Lovebyte rules, and does the load address ($0082) count? :)
In case of 8b,16b,32b,64b header is excluded. So in fact you'd have some extra bytes to spare ;)
128b,256b,512b,1024b,256b gfx,256b game header is included in the size.
For all entries you don't need a basic startline, you just attach info on what SYS command starts the entry. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting chatGPZRegarding Evoke: They were always open to accept PETSCII too. But there were no entries. Ever - Indeed. How suprising that you get no entries since you don't communicate properly that they are even welcome :) I always come to parties with my hard worked releases for the compos that are not listed by the organizers. LOL fucking indeed xD |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Compos are being created on demand. When enough ppl want to release this and that, organizers will make a compo for it. That Evoke doesn't explicitly lists PETSCII only means: there has been no demand for it.
In the case of Evoke, i'd say over 80% of the visitors are regulars that know the Orgas personally, and for many years - so what you say simply isn't a problem. In particular the (admittedly not so many) people from the C64 scene that visit it all know this. And the one guy i remember from C64 scene, who visits Evoke, that has made PETSCII before would usually enter with an ANSI in that compo (and never with a PETSCII, not on other Parties either).
And none of this changes that both PETSCII and 4Ks are pretty much quite established :) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting KrillOkay, so would something like Srpnsk [16 bytes] be a-okay with Lovebyte rules, and does the load address ($0082) count? :) In case of 8b,16b,32b,64b header is excluded. So in fact you'd have some extra bytes to spare ;) So, that'd make the mentioned example a 14-byte entry as per Lovebyte rules, with 2 more bytes to spare, yeah? :) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting chatGPZCompos are being created on demand. When enough ppl want to release this and that, organizers will make a compo for it. Indeed. "Enough" usually meaning at least 3 entries make a compo. =)
(Conversely, only 1 or 2 entries in a compo will cause that compo to be merged with another compo.) |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
Actually, at the parties where i was involved into organising compos, it was more like "2 entries" at least - the 3rd would be a silly compofiller (made by me perhaps) :) (This might not work at Evoke, since no more C64 sceners are involved AFAIK) |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillSo, that'd make the mentioned example a 14-byte entry as per Lovebyte rules, with 2 more bytes to spare, yeah? :) Yep :) Here's an example: Late at Night, Programming the ODRA 1304 [16 bytes], 18 bytes including the load address. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting chatGPZCompos are being created on demand. When enough ppl want to release this and that, organizers will make a compo for it. I am sorry, maybe there were/are some parties like this, but that is not defacto standard. It's a bold claim that might be true with Evoke, but it's not true with most parties. And we both have similar amount of parties under our belt. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
This was and is the case on any party i have been involved with, visitor or organiser. |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekQuoting chatGPZCompos are being created on demand. When enough ppl want to release this and that, organizers will make a compo for it. I am sorry, maybe there were/are some parties like this, but that is not defacto standard. It's a bold claim that might be true with Evoke, but it's not true with most parties. And we both have similar amount of parties under our belt. In which way exactly was your experience different?
What happened when you (and 2 other dudes) kindly asked for an extra compo with 3 releases in hand? |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
It should also go without saying, that the bigger the party, the more early *before the party* you'll have to approach the organizers. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillIn which way exactly was your experience different? What happened when you (and 2 other dudes) kindly asked for an extra compo with 3 releases in hand? The compos did not happen. Or in case of parties like Astrosyn or Quast, compos happened but were totally ignored in results and reward ceremony.
Other times "we have no category on the vote sheet" was one of the answers.
I think you and Groepaz have goldfish memory, building your perspective on the last few years where many aspects of the scene (especially platform crossover) shifted dramatically, including approach from the organizers. |
| |
chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 11442 |
As said before, this was the case at any party i was involved with, ever. Of course when you approach organisers at the party, when everything is already set in stone more or less, chances are slim. And actually i my perception this stuff has become more strict in recent years, not less - because these days most parties already have a tight schedule (and a lot of compos). |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekI think you and Groepaz have goldfish memory Dude. |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
What? Was that offensive or smth?? |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
Quoting wacekWhat? Was that offensive or smth?? Well, i hadn't even attended my first real demoparty when the two you mentioned took place... sometime at the end of the last millenium.
We were talking about recent-ish parties, of course, like, no older than the average demoscener's firstborn. =) |
| |
Krill
Registered: Apr 2002 Posts: 3003 |
<message ignored> :D
(Misclicked something to edit in a P.S.: "(And yes, that wording was needlessly rude.") |
| |
wacek
Registered: Nov 2007 Posts: 518 |
Quoting KrillAnd yes, that wording was needlessly rude. "Goldfish memory"? Dude, be serious :) |
| |
Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003 Posts: 1945 |
Time to make people here move to a more general thread to discuss size-coding and alike. Next not Lovebyte 2024 related post will receive my personal wrath.
(Just keeping this thread open to not wreck the linkage to the event - respect this pls!) |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023 Posts: 143 |
Lovebyte 2024 looks really cool, just read the competition categories from 16 bytes up to 1K.
These small footprint code sizes are great fun! I used to compete in one and 10 line programming contests in the 80's.
As the author of SuperCharger BASIC I wonder if BASIC programming languages could be used to compete in the 1K contest provided only 1K of the RAM free to BASIC was used for the program code?
SuperCharger BASIC is designed to run on an Atari 2600 with a 6K RAM SuperCharger flashcart or stock Commodore 64. Of the 6K, 2K is used for the BASIC runtime and 4K is left free to compiled BASIC or Assembly.
On the Commodore 64 there is an additional 24K for the Atari 2600 emulator wrapper.
Can I enter Lovebyte 2024 in the 1K category with a SuperCharger BASIC program limited to 1K of the 4K available to BASIC?
Why or why not?
It seems like it should be reasonable to exclude the BASIC runtime since we do not include the BASIC ROM as part of a CBM BASIC 2.0 program. Memory for the Atari emulation VM would similarly need be excluded.
SuperCharger BASIC might be considered a "fantasy console" for the Atari 2600 and Commodore 64 for having graphics commands to program Display List Windows:
Christmas Inertia
Quoting KrillQuoting wacekQuoting KrillAs if i haven't proven often enough that, i, personally, don't need more.
So... what was the purpose of your comment? You lost me. For all platforms except fantasy consoles, we are talking about pure binaries... Again, nobody ruled out binaries nor plain C-64 as a target.
It's just that Lovebyte, in my mind, is strongly coupled with fantasy consoles and their Byte Battles, which in turn is based on Shader Showdown.
I just thought it would be cool to have such a Byte-Battle-esque thing for C-64, too.
Quoting ChristopherJamI believe we're all responding to
Quote:Question, of course, would be about the language. Some kind of souped-up BASIC or more low-level ASM-like thing or in-betweenish Pascal-esque thing? ..but now I'm not sure whether you were talking about the language being the one that competitors code in, or the one that the IDE is coded in. That was about the former, the language to write the programs in.
Your initial suggestions were a bit confusing because no context was given, and i failed to make the connection because they don't really qualify as proper languages in my book, not for time-constrained live competitions, anyways. =) |
| |
Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003 Posts: 183 |
@Mr SQL I would just ask the orgas. Even if using SuperCharger BASIC is quite different from using CBM BASIC v2.0 (additional code vs. built-in code to interpret the 1k basic code), I'd personally reckon the more the merrier. |
| |
Mr SQL
Registered: Feb 2023 Posts: 143 |
Quote: @Mr SQL I would just ask the orgas. Even if using SuperCharger BASIC is quite different from using CBM BASIC v2.0 (additional code vs. built-in code to interpret the 1k basic code), I'd personally reckon the more the merrier.
Thanks good idea I just asked Lovebyte.
I'll share if the new BASIC can be used once I find out. |