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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
Release id #244483 : Oceanborn
TheRyk mentions here that this pic being animated makes it a one file demo. Is that definitely the case for all GFX? I’ve seen many animations on CSDb that were tagged as gfx but which included simple animations.
What’s the definition for whether a graphic is “animated”? |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
It also has music. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
I found CSDb is somewhat inconsistent about this.
For example, this (gorgeous) prod is categorized as Graphics.
Evoluer |
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t0m3000
Registered: Feb 2024
Posts: 2 |
Is this also a demo too?
Step On |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
Yeah, for me, Oceanborn is a "C64 Graphics" release.
Music doesn't make it a demo.
If having animation makes it a demo, does that mean that interlace pics should also be considered demos? |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2971 |
That sort of classification should be left to the creators, imho. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
My 2c here: it's not fair on Worrior1 at all to recategorise this release. He put it out as "C64 graphics" because that's what he made. Animated graphics are still graphics - and there are many examples of this on CSDb.
Music: it's ripped. Zero effort here.
Code: isn't it just linked together with PNG2PRG or something..? Hence no coder listed (whether Burglar should be credited I don't know - he might not want to be credited on 1000s of GFX releases on CSDb).
There's a small window of time on CSDb where people can catch voters. Votes on this release should of course be for the graphics, not the music nor "code". Categorising it as a "One File Demo" so that it goes up against such as AWE, Layers, Cubic Dream, Party Elk 2, Copper Booze etc is definitely not right. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4724 |
Look at today’s music entries: full blown demo parts, many of them. Still: they were meant to show off the music, therefore: Music entry. Same goes for logos released with music and a scroller: the purpose was to show off a logo, therefore: gfx entry.
This should be changed back to gfx entry imho. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11377 |
Graphics screen with music playing was called "demo" ever since the first one appeared on compunet.
But yes, a clear definition for this (and many other things) is still needed. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
Complicated.
The entry that started this conversation got user rated as Graphic I’d say, no matter the category. For now at least. I don’t think users actually feel this (beautiful thing) is a 9.4 One-File Demo. Perhaps it’s best to leave the categorization to authors when it comes to prods released out of compos. They know the contexts in which their prods got made. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11377 |
What an author thinks it is and how something is classified in the db really are two different things. For the db to make any sense, the same rules must be applied to each entry. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4724 |
It makes little sense to recategorize all, say, Finnish Gold music entries in every compo as one-file-demos either. Makes it hell to search for specific music entries and sort stuff. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
Quote:What an author thinks it is and how something is classified in the db really are two different things. For the db to make any sense, the same rules must be applied to each entry.
I understand the concept of classification. But I can’t help but feel this cleanup would severely curtail some authors. Something like: “Dear Flotsam. Unfortunately you can’t keep producing your awesome graphic design to go with your music. Let alone animations. If you continue, every future music entry from you that contains other elements than music will be classified as a demo.” Or this: “Dear Sarge. Unfortunately you can’t keep asking your musician friends to compose awesome music to go along with your gfx/anims.” Do we really want that? Perhaps a compromise could be classifying prods dependent on whether a coder was involved. As in, if a coder (and custom code) was involved then it’s a demo. If readymade displayers/SID players were used, it’s whatever author says it is. Not that this would actually clean anything up, but it resembles a “rule”… |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11377 |
If whatever classification on csdb affects what you "can do" then you are doing it wrong in the first place.
And yes, certain rules may not make sense. However as long as no rules exist things make even less sense. (And adding credits to rob hubbard to all and everything that uses hubbard tunes will never make sense for that matter). |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
GPZ: in the absence of “rules”, there’s still common sense. The scene doesn’t need rules for something as simple as deciding whether a release is made to show off effects, graphics or music.
What next? Reclassify cracks as demos because they feature an intro on the front? It’s not just a game any more, after all, and often the intro is more interesting than the game itself?
Or, as I say, we simply use common sense. |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 329 |
Quoting RaistlinGPZ: in the absence of “rules”, there’s still common sense.
There is no common sense, everyone has one's own.
Some have more than one, especially here on CSDB. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1090 |
Quoting RaistlinGPZ: in the absence of “rules”, there’s still common sense. The scene doesn’t need rules for something as simple as deciding whether a release is made to show off effects, graphics or music.
What next? Reclassify cracks as demos because they feature an intro on the front? It’s not just a game any more, after all, and often the intro is more interesting than the game itself?
Or, as I say, we simply use common sense. +1 from me :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1647 |
In line with the common sense remarks, I would say the concepts of the scene are better understood in terms of family resemblance than as a matter of strict formal categories. From that point of view it is not strange at all if it is a bit tricky to come up with a list of necessary and/or sufficient conditions to define each of the categories.
In fact, I find it fascinating to what a large extent a simple scheme of classification (demos, cracks, etc) actually works to classify the vaaaast majority of all those thousands and thousands of releases that are entered into CSDb. It kind of illustrates to what a large extent people — a lot of people — have oriented themselves towards a few relatively intuitively graspable categories over the years, in many many instances, in such a strikingly orderly fashion. |
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DKT
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 99 |
For me, the classification of the demo is quite simple (for the case when it's released out of any compo). This production should be classified as a demo or intro. If anything moves on the screen (and it's not an equalizer), it's already a demo or intro. |
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Flex
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 111 |
What Raistlin (& others) said. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
“If something moves on the screen it’s already a demo or an intro”
It’s going to take a while to reclassify all those interlace FLI pics to be intros… |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
Perhaps then, every executable that's not a game or a crack is a demo or an intro? Just reading what I just wrote feels bizarre. I strongly suspect this inconsistency situation is unresolvable. Without curtailing authors that is. And it's been (rightly) said above that if a database of artifacts' classification system curtails past present and future authors, it' broken. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11377 |
Quote:GPZ: in the absence of “rules”, there’s still common sense.
The problem with common sense is that it isn't quite common. And that is why rules are strictly required for this sort of thing - as demonstrated by the countless never ending discussions about this "common sense".
And if you can't come up with a simple rule according to your common sense - it doesn't make a lot of sense either to be begin with. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2226 |
Holy arbitrariness, Batman...
I do see the point when it comes to music releases with players that actually defined by their visual effects are demos or intros. More as a result of fashion it has become common _practice_ (let's not use the term common sense, hehehe) to let these be "C64 Music" anyway.
But animated gfx with sound as graphics for - excuse my wording - really stupid reasons like "The author decides" or "TheRyk is unfair" or "This costs upvotes" (<- /o\ m favourite argument, Ryk stole the vote! again!) ... Come on... must be the summer heat.
First of all, that "the author decides" stuff. OK, so I release a mute picture as category C64 Music, call it "enjoy the silence" and if anyone dares recommending "Graphics", I generate drama...? Next point is, the entry is locked by Worrior1, I just added(!) myself as maintainer to make that change (one of the few Mod superpowers). He ist still maintainer and could have set it back anytime. Also: I'm on very good terms with Worrior1, even worked on releases with him, so if _he_ had a problem, he would have contacted me long ago and not waited for the Knights of the "All Categories Are Set by Author" round table. BTW My guess is he doesn't care at all :)
Most of all, I don't care enough to rambo this our forever, because I don't think it's important enough. That's why I set it back to GFX now, not because I find your points very logical. Following that logic, categories are superfluous altogether, let's just label everything a "C64 Related Release" and have a "Kill All Categories
Parade" every 26th of July. |
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4gentE
Registered: Mar 2021
Posts: 236 |
LOL Ryk stole the vote! Again! B*stard! 🤣 |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 447 |
This is funny because of following real-life analogy. The finnish government loves to create arbitary classifications so that it can enforce its policies. As a result there are continuously complaints about how situation of individuals do not fit to any of the classifications, and thus they're treated unfairly in their opinion. The public opinion always is split between those who do not care, who think that classifications should be enforced and those who think that government is shit. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11377 |
Yes, and the german tax system is a textbook example of what happens if you try to massage the classifications to make everyone happy :=) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1090 |
Quoting chatGPZYes, and the german tax system is a textbook example of what happens if you try to massage the classifications to make everyone happy :=) ok, you made me lol :) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2226 |
Lightforce Demo
One-Filed Demo for 6 weeks as of now and no complaints
just sayin' |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 670 |
@TheRyk: yep, I refer you back to the common sense thoughts.
Fjällevator Music
^ features unique music, code and graphics. But LFT made the code and graphics to bring attention to that it’s elevator music. His choice IMO and we can’t really argue that this isn’t a music release. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 948 |
Quote: @TheRyk: yep, I refer you back to the common sense thoughts.
Fjällevator Music
^ features unique music, code and graphics. But LFT made the code and graphics to bring attention to that it’s elevator music. His choice IMO and we can’t really argue that this isn’t a music release.
It can be classified as 'C64 Music (PETSCII)' then.
Anyway, almost all my tunes have a demo wrapped around them. But none of the Ordnung muss sein fans are bothered to change the types to C64 Onefile demo. It's not all that important aka too much work, I guess. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2226 |
Quoting Hein... none of the Ordnung muss sein fans ...
OUCH! That hurt! :_(
NOT :)
Really do wtf you want
*CLOSED* |
