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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
Release id #26367 : Retro Replay ROM v3.8p
there seems to be a whole lot of confusion about this release, so i want to explain it a little.
There (definitley) is a bug in the ProgramFlasher v3.8b which is envoked by TOOL from the latest RR-ROM v3.8b. (yes, they have same version numbers.)
There are FlashUtilities Versions v0.04 & v0.05 which seem to work well but won't work on the newer revisions of RR (red board), because they don't recognise the new M29F010B FlashROM which replaced the M29F010 on older RRs.
So, owners of the new (red, revision 2004) board can't use the v0.04/ v0.05 FlashUtility and the v3.8b-one has a bug in it concerning (only!) the PROGRAM FLASHER. (Flashing whole ROMs works with v3.8b fine)
The bug is a fact. I know because i fixed it. Believe me!!
(Flashing Programs will work, but they fail to "load" after power up, because the "download" routine, which should be executed in RAM is executed in FlashROM, which crashes the machine)
I fixed this bug and "released" FlashUtiliuty v3.8p (i called it "p" because of "patch") here in CSDb.
Then I told Jens Schoenfeld about this patch and he asked me to fix the whole RR-ROM v3.8b so that he can ship RRs with the patched FlashUtility from now on. To get it straight, I called the ROM v3.8p as well. (I didn't start with confusing version numbers...;))
And to get another thing clear: I am not a member of Cyberpunx or such. I simply recognised the bug and did a fix to it. Unfortunately I couldn't get in contact with Count Zero until now.
This is no official Cyaberpunx release.
Furthermore this ROM is nothing more than the v3.8b-ROM, it just saves the patched FlashUtility v3.8p to disk when typing TOOL.
This ROM is intended to replace the v3.8b on future shipping of the RR, there's no need to update, there is a version of the FlashUtility v3.8p here in CSDb as stand-alone as well. Simply download this and use it if you want to have a working ProgramFlasher on your (new, red board) RR. Owners of older RRs can use the FlashUtility v0.05.
Hope to get some things clearer now!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
you DID use the rom from the hitmen page (which has the loader bug fixed) i hope? :) |
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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
yep. :)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
good....i'll put it on our site then with the next update :) |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
ehrm, gpz, does this version also include all the other bugfixes I submitted to C0? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
no idea, its a somewhat recent version though, so maybe it does :) the loader bug is the only obvious one, so i dont know :=P |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
What? There IS actually someone who fixed the loader bug? I had no idea!? Why isn't this commonly known and WHY is it not released here on CSDB ??? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
RaveGuru.. Agh.. I say the same... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
why didnt you subscribe to the dedicated mailinglist where such things were announced? one of the main reasons for CZ loosing interest was exactly that. and csdb isnt the main place for releases afterall. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I was on those lists but never recieved anything like this. Perhaps there was a trouble with the mailinglist? |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
Same here! I assumed the list was removed!!? Can't even seem to find the address.... |
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 411 |
Come on, even I haven't heard of it (and I thought I was on those lists). Mentioning a release on c64.sk, CSDb, IRC and diskmags is not that hard. Still, it's nice to hear that my work from years ago could have been finally included by now. :) Just a pity that I seem to have lost my RR in the meantime :( |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
I think the problem with RR development is exactly that there is NO hub for the RR community. There is only scattered development going on that barely reaches the big audience. CSDB could serve well for this purpose, but still RR related releases are rarely seen here. It's no wonder CZ and others lost interest when their work never reached the users and got publicly acknowledged... |
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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
Quote: I think the problem with RR development is exactly that there is NO hub for the RR community. There is only scattered development going on that barely reaches the big audience. CSDB could serve well for this purpose, but still RR related releases are rarely seen here. It's no wonder CZ and others lost interest when their work never reached the users and got publicly acknowledged...
i agree with that. it is really hard to get information about RR-specific things that is newer than the last Cyberpunx hp-update (2002)
Is this mailing list still active?? |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
I'd be happy to put a simple forum system online for RR developers if that would be of any interest? Perhaps that could be a start.. |
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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
yes, that sounds good!
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: yes, that sounds good!
Yep!
Including coding for the RR-Net as well..?
Please? Pretty please?
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
For RRnet indeed and possibly MMC64 aswell! |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: I'd be happy to put a simple forum system online for RR developers if that would be of any interest? Perhaps that could be a start..
Would it be possible to add a user section? The manual leaves now and then some questions open, i think (not that I have now any at hand). Thanks in advance. |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
I'm thinking of setting up an open phpBB forum with added file upload/download support. Thus it would be possible for everybody to exchange files easily. What do you guys think? |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
If it's not too much hassle for you, then I guess it is worth a try at least? (However, I have a feeling that C0 stopped caring a long time ago anyway.) |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
@raveguru: Im gonna kill your enthusiasm!
There's already a rr-net, mmc64 and whatever hardware forum at http://forum-64.de/wbb2/ . Though it suffers the usual thing - that most likely everything is written in german. |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
*Sigh*
When are our german friends gonna learn? ;)
So I suppose it's time to go international then. Well, it's not much hassle to set it up since i'm kind of used to phpBB by now. I actually took time and prepared a SQL database last night so it's all just a few button pushes away now. My only concern is, will enough people use it? I guess we'll see soon! :)
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
You know, people at the forum-64 are not overly strict about german as long as the persons posting there can provide some creative input. So just do a hostile english takeover. ;-) |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Quote: You know, people at the forum-64 are not overly strict about german as long as the persons posting there can provide some creative input. So just do a hostile english takeover. ;-)
I dislike forum-64.de because they don't even allow downloading of attached files without being registered, which in turn requires you to fill a 20-page form! :P Anyway, thanks to hannenz for giving the information, although naming the ROM 3.8p is a very confusing version. :)
It's about time these things are told to people. The whole RR has been shrouded in mystery with much information kept secret. Which is only made worse by the Cyberpunx website not carrying new versions and last updated over THREE YEARS ago!
Changing from FlashUtil 5 to version 3.8 was extremely confusing! Until it was explained that "5" was in fact 0.05... And having fought with "no FlashROM found" I am annoyed that no-one took the time to tell buyers that it doesn't work with new RRs.
Owning a C128, it was also a big surprise that the crappy cart is extremely unreliable on a 128! Jens could've done a *LOT* better job on documentation instead of putting down IDE64...
What is the dedicated mailinglist? Are there any RR developers? At least there is some programming info for it, but MMC64-related material has apparently been classified. Oliver Achten promised to release it, but hasn't. Didn't also reply my email.
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
This is really annoying! Why do such a thing? The documentation on RRnet, even if scrouny, is at least publicly available.
I don't want to compete with forum-64.de, but since it's mainly in german and also is intended for a lot more than RR developing, I think it could still be useful to put up a little RR devlopers forum. Well enough talking.. time for action! And then time will tell....
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quoting ShumwayMMC64-related material has apparently been classified
Bah, you have register descriptions and even some MMC/SD programming examples, what else do you need? :) |
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
Ok guys, here it is: http://rrforum.ath.cx
Come and help putting the corner stones! |
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Ok guys, here it is: http://rrforum.ath.cx
Come and help putting the corner stones!
great! I have registered! :) |
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hannenz
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 24 |
looks great!
that's what we need, i'll be in!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:
It's about time these things are told to people. The whole RR has been shrouded in mystery with much information kept secret.
thats nonsense, i've told you numerous times on irc that all info needed to program the rr is and has been available on jens' page since day one.
Quote:
Which is only made worse by the Cyberpunx website not carrying new versions and last updated over THREE YEARS ago!
and? you should be thankful that cz made the rom and the flashutil. end of story.
Quote:
Changing from FlashUtil 5 to version 3.8 was extremely confusing! Until it was explained that "5" was in fact 0.05... And having fought with "no FlashROM found" I am annoyed that no-one took the time to tell buyers that it doesn't work with new RRs.
i am annoyed by buyers that dont understand that what they bought is the hardware, not the software. if you want to buy the software too, maybe get in touch with cz - i'm sure he will accept some additional pocket money.
Quote:
Owning a C128, it was also a big surprise that the crappy cart is extremely unreliable on a 128! Jens could've done a *LOT* better job on documentation instead of putting down IDE64...
the cart works extremely well on c64, c128 and sx-64. we've tested it on a lot of different setups. if it doesnt for you either the cart (unlikely) or the computer (very likely) has some sort of hardware defect.
Quote:
What is the dedicated mailinglist?
it was shut down about a year ago (if i recall correctly) since noone used it. ppl prefer bitching in public, as shown in your post.
Quote:
Are there any RR developers?
hardware or software?
Quote:
At least there is some programming info for it,
but MMC64-related material has apparently been classified. Oliver Achten promised to release it, but hasn't. Didn't also reply my email.
all you need to write code for it has been released. everything else is a bonus.
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Nafcom
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 588 |
Quote: Quote:
It's about time these things are told to people. The whole RR has been shrouded in mystery with much information kept secret.
thats nonsense, i've told you numerous times on irc that all info needed to program the rr is and has been available on jens' page since day one.
Quote:
Which is only made worse by the Cyberpunx website not carrying new versions and last updated over THREE YEARS ago!
and? you should be thankful that cz made the rom and the flashutil. end of story.
Quote:
Changing from FlashUtil 5 to version 3.8 was extremely confusing! Until it was explained that "5" was in fact 0.05... And having fought with "no FlashROM found" I am annoyed that no-one took the time to tell buyers that it doesn't work with new RRs.
i am annoyed by buyers that dont understand that what they bought is the hardware, not the software. if you want to buy the software too, maybe get in touch with cz - i'm sure he will accept some additional pocket money.
Quote:
Owning a C128, it was also a big surprise that the crappy cart is extremely unreliable on a 128! Jens could've done a *LOT* better job on documentation instead of putting down IDE64...
the cart works extremely well on c64, c128 and sx-64. we've tested it on a lot of different setups. if it doesnt for you either the cart (unlikely) or the computer (very likely) has some sort of hardware defect.
Quote:
What is the dedicated mailinglist?
it was shut down about a year ago (if i recall correctly) since noone used it. ppl prefer bitching in public, as shown in your post.
Quote:
Are there any RR developers?
hardware or software?
Quote:
At least there is some programming info for it,
but MMC64-related material has apparently been classified. Oliver Achten promised to release it, but hasn't. Didn't also reply my email.
all you need to write code for it has been released. everything else is a bonus.
One sentence is nonsense in here. When you buy the RR, you buy the complete RR, i.e. software and hardware!
It's nonsense this, "You buy only hardware, not the software". |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:
One sentence is nonsense in here. When you buy the RR, you buy the complete RR, i.e. software and hardware!
It's nonsense this, "You buy only hardware, not the software".
NO. thats a common misunderstanding. maybe jens should stop beeing so nice and flash his hardware with a FREEWARE ROM.
from rr.c64.org:
Quote:
NOTE!
Hardware and Software described on these pages are INDEPENDANT from each other.
The new hardware is still available and sold by
Individual Computers at www.jschoenfeld.com.
from http://jschoenfeld.com:
Quote:
The software is frequently updated by freeware programmers.
i really have no idea why ppl think differently, maybe they are unwilling -or even unable- to read? i dont know.
that said, i'm going to suggest count0 to remove the old rr page, and jens to stop flashing the obsolete rom. all this whining is getting annoying, and explaining the same things over and over again to ppl not whilling to understand simple facts takes much more of my sparetime than i have ever planned to spend on it. (i guess i now understand what made count0 quit the whole thing basically).
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quoting Groepazi'm going to suggest ... jens to stop flashing the obsolete rom
RR could be sold with only flash utility in ROM, forcing buyers to supply a ROM of their own choice - either from disk or through Silversurfer (I can supply code for MMC64 if needed). That would clearly separate hardware from software while still making it relatively simple to do the initial flashing.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
@tnt: except someone would also have to code a flashutil first, countzeros has simelar relation to the hardware as his rom :=P |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Okay, I see that this thread is going nowhere now.
We have a nice new forum dedicated to the RR and related hardware.
Just let get rid of the past including the annoyances etc.
Maybe this will give CountZero (and Groepaz?) a new boost to develop things further for the cartridge.
It's a nice piece of hardware and it would be sad if it faded away.
Also the people subscribed to that forum are (IMO) serious coders that are willing to take the RR a step further.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Quote: Quote:
It's about time these things are told to people. The whole RR has been shrouded in mystery with much information kept secret.
thats nonsense, i've told you numerous times on irc that all info needed to program the rr is and has been available on jens' page since day one.
Quote:
Which is only made worse by the Cyberpunx website not carrying new versions and last updated over THREE YEARS ago!
and? you should be thankful that cz made the rom and the flashutil. end of story.
Quote:
Changing from FlashUtil 5 to version 3.8 was extremely confusing! Until it was explained that "5" was in fact 0.05... And having fought with "no FlashROM found" I am annoyed that no-one took the time to tell buyers that it doesn't work with new RRs.
i am annoyed by buyers that dont understand that what they bought is the hardware, not the software. if you want to buy the software too, maybe get in touch with cz - i'm sure he will accept some additional pocket money.
Quote:
Owning a C128, it was also a big surprise that the crappy cart is extremely unreliable on a 128! Jens could've done a *LOT* better job on documentation instead of putting down IDE64...
the cart works extremely well on c64, c128 and sx-64. we've tested it on a lot of different setups. if it doesnt for you either the cart (unlikely) or the computer (very likely) has some sort of hardware defect.
Quote:
What is the dedicated mailinglist?
it was shut down about a year ago (if i recall correctly) since noone used it. ppl prefer bitching in public, as shown in your post.
Quote:
Are there any RR developers?
hardware or software?
Quote:
At least there is some programming info for it,
but MMC64-related material has apparently been classified. Oliver Achten promised to release it, but hasn't. Didn't also reply my email.
all you need to write code for it has been released. everything else is a bonus.
Does in your opinnion the sentence "software is updated by freeware programmers" in any way suggest that hardware and software are somehow separate? In my opinnion it clearly doesn't. And it is not the common practice! If I go to a store and buy a printer, I don't need to go somewhere else to look for the software, because software always comes with hardware, and if Jens has a different practice, then HE should make that clear on his website and everywhere else, but he DOESN'T.
Quite the contrary, as you have noted, he has been "nice" enough to deliver RR flashed with software that is independent and has nothing to do with the hardware and he also provides the unrelated software on his website and you with graham are wondering why people don't understand that Jens and RR have nothing to do with the software? You really don't see why it is terribly unclear that there is this perculiar arrangement?!?
And then you both start accusing people of whining and being lamers. Jens should have marketed the thing as not "Retro Replay", which implies freezer operation accomplished only with included software, but rather a generic empty 128K FlashROM cartridge with freezer logic. That would have made the deal clear to everyone, but Individual Computers has a policy of distributing vague information.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
you know what? write your whining into a mail and send it to jens. its getting boring. "software is updated by freeware programmers" means exactly that. no idea how you draw the connection from "freeware programmers" to "individual computers". and about common practice, have a look at other non mainstream hardware, for example console modchips - whose firmware often (most of the times) has a simelar relation to the hardware.
whatever, i can only repeat: complain at jens, quit the whining at ppl who couldnt care less. |
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
And freeware programmers are actually releasing some kickass software, so I don't understand what people are complaining about. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
shumway: please relax, and think a bit on how childis your oppinion is.
(and by that I kept now all the flaming about you for myself) |
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Rattus
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 34 |
Blah, blah... I bought The RR.... downloaded the flasher, downloaded the RRrom-image? and flashed the shit into my RR... works fine, no complains... Got what I wanted, costed a bit too much as usual.... (and if I remember right, my RR got some rr-image flashed already in the device.. in Finland, bought from gentle eye...)
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Meh, who cares about RR-ROM? Get TFR! :)
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Quote: you know what? write your whining into a mail and send it to jens. its getting boring. "software is updated by freeware programmers" means exactly that. no idea how you draw the connection from "freeware programmers" to "individual computers". and about common practice, have a look at other non mainstream hardware, for example console modchips - whose firmware often (most of the times) has a simelar relation to the hardware.
whatever, i can only repeat: complain at jens, quit the whining at ppl who couldnt care less.
Groepaz, if you don't care why do you keep replying? To me "freeware programmers" implies that it's just a hell of a deal for the manufacturer, but enough of this, yes. I cannot agree with Puterman, because IMHO the existing Cyberpunx FlashUtil is one of the worst programs ever made.
I've also tried to contact Countzero, but he isn't replying my emails. And no, I did not email him that you suck but rather asked for information regarding the ROM Header. Oliver Achten also dismissed my request for further details, so apparently secrecy is the way to go in this stuff...
I am willing to admit it was me who misunderstood the RR thing. I was mistaken about the software provided for it and my expectations toward MMC64 were also too high. Not that I'm not happy with it, but I was in a dreamworld hoping it to provide a high level filesystem interface...
PS. I've seen enough of Oswald's behavior on #C-64 that he should be very quiet about being chilidish.
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
Quote: Groepaz, if you don't care why do you keep replying? To me "freeware programmers" implies that it's just a hell of a deal for the manufacturer, but enough of this, yes. I cannot agree with Puterman, because IMHO the existing Cyberpunx FlashUtil is one of the worst programs ever made.
I've also tried to contact Countzero, but he isn't replying my emails. And no, I did not email him that you suck but rather asked for information regarding the ROM Header. Oliver Achten also dismissed my request for further details, so apparently secrecy is the way to go in this stuff...
I am willing to admit it was me who misunderstood the RR thing. I was mistaken about the software provided for it and my expectations toward MMC64 were also too high. Not that I'm not happy with it, but I was in a dreamworld hoping it to provide a high level filesystem interface...
PS. I've seen enough of Oswald's behavior on #C-64 that he should be very quiet about being chilidish.
Well ok, it is lacking mouse support and an intuitive point & click user interface, but saying that it's one of the worst programs ever made seems a bit harsh.
Sure, there are some minor bugs to straighten out, but all in all it's very easy to use and has been working flawlessly for me at least. A bit slow perhaps, but I believe it's using kernal loader for 100% compatibility with all kinds of drives. And if you own a SilverSurfer you have the option to use that. IMHO I think it's one of the better tool programs ever made for the c64.
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
Mouse support. :) All right, I may have overexaggerated somewhat. Besides, so far Cyberpunx's Flash Util is the only way to flash RR. At least I haven't heard of alternative tools for that purpose. And I admit that the flashing seems to work reliably and errorless which is the most important thing.
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RaveGuru
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 43 |
Hehe.. well anyway, this thread should really move on to the http://rrforum.ath.cx *Advertising Intended*
;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:
Groepaz, if you don't care why do you keep replying?
for the same reason i'd yell "NO! TIHS BAD!" at you if you were going to touch a hot oven. because no matter how much you demand touching an oven should be 100% safe under all circumstances, it *will* still be hot.
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FMan
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2003
Posts: 66 |
LOL. True. But there should still be a big sign "hot oven". ;) |
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Devia
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 401 |
Argh.. like the Americans place those little signs all over the floors in airports and such that say: CAUTION! WET FLOOR! DO NOT STUMBLE!! ..or whatever, only you don't notice them until you actually trip over them :-) |
