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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Group id #223 : Protovision
There are some entries from Protovision that should be deleted from the database.
Those entries are commercial releases (without a downloadlink) and not scenereleases.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
Agreed. Protovision is a commercial company, not a scene group. If they wanna delete download links to cracks of their games that's one thing, but their games in themselves are not scene releases any more than, say, any game by Ocean. Keep CSDb clean. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
As above. |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
And what about these:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6061
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=18115
Operation Wolf +6 [lightgun]
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6005
Gordian Tomb
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6008
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6063
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6064
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6013
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6075
Wetten, dass..?
? |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: And what about these:
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6061
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=18115
Operation Wolf +6 [lightgun]
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6005
Gordian Tomb
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6008
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6063
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6064
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6013
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=6075
Wetten, dass..?
?
Some of them are scenereleases (Operation Wolf cracked by Triad, Rainbow Islands cracked by Ikari+Talent) but some are not.
The only thing incorrect about those scenereleases are the credits; credits for the game are given and not about the crack.
But yes, some of your list can be deleted from the db as well (as for some credited sceners which are actually no sceners but professional gamedevelopers).
This database is too polluted :(
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Matt was adding lots of games, game developers & also commercial companies like First Star Software. Most of it got removed but those seems to be have left in. They don't belong here though. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I've deleted everything but Rainbow Islands (someone may want to make a proper release out of it) and Operation Neptun (which I cleaned up to be a proper TRIAD crack). Sorry Matt. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Could somebody review the entries of this company?
There are still a lot of entries that should be removed.
I'm talking about entries of their game-products (without download links) and previews. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Ice Guys <- Ice Guyz
Bomb Mania <- Bomb Mania
CLiPS (beta preview) <- CLiPS Beta Prv.
It's Magic 2 <- It's Magic 2
Team Patrol <- Team Patrol
Hockey Mania <- Hockey Mania
All of the above are "commercial-spots". Screenshot and link to the Protovision homepage, no downloads.
Should be removed imho.
Hockey Mania Preview <- Hockey Mania Prv.
It's Magic <- It's Magic
Pac It Preview <- Pac-It Prv
Pac It Preview #2 <- Pac-It Prv.2
The above entries are all game previews which are downloadable. I personally see no problem with the above.
It's Magic is freeware, so I don't see a problem with that either.
Newcomer <- Newcomer
Newcomer is hard to judge, since it's for free and mainly related to Cinematic Intuitive Dynamix. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
I can imagine that the previews are a bit of a gray area.
In case of the PTV previews those are spread (and uploaded here) to get potential buyers of the game. Therefor those are commercial entries. |
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Courage
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16 |
Yes! Please please delete this all from the CSDB! PLEASE! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
what twoflower said. csdb is not an advertising platform afterall. |
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
CLiPS (beta preview) was actually not commercial but released for free on one of the cover disks of GO64! magazine.
The magazine itself was not free of course, but that's another cup of tea.
Some ppl have strange opinions here, like something which is not free can't be scene. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
there are probably a lot more people who find it strange that someone considers commercial games scene releases :) |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
What I find strange is that in the CSDb, introlinkers are generally more a lot more likely to be credited for a "release" than the original game creators even in the case of freeware games, but that's part of the concept it seems. Judging from the ever-repeating discussions about what's scene and what's not I also suspect this concept will never change.
I decided long ago to meet this with an I-don't-care attitude: Since this database honours introlinkers in the same way as game creators (or even more), the whole thing is a bit meaningless to me. There is no group entry for More.Gore Software, nor are there any entries for none of my original releases (both freeware and payware) and I don't feel too motivated to open them either.
PTV should do the same: Why should you care? After all, having entries for the PTV payware originals means being at the same level as the retard introlinking scene. This is not a game creators' database. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:This is not a game creators' database.
exactly |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Shouldn't Commodore Christmas Demo be removed too. "The perfect holiday gift - only $595"... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Shouldn't Commodore Christmas Demo be removed too. "The perfect holiday gift - only $595"...
That's not made by PTV. ;)
P.S.: German sceners and their personal animosities... |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote: Shouldn't Commodore Christmas Demo be removed too. "The perfect holiday gift - only $595"...
if you check the rules, you will notice that we made an explicit exception for commercial demos. simply because they are somewhat of a curiosity, and because there are so few of them. (that is very different with commercial games) |
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d0c
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 186 |
Quote: Shouldn't Commodore Christmas Demo be removed too. "The perfect holiday gift - only $595"...
you read what Groepaz said, eh?.... now eat your words! :P |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
The rules say that a crack is basically any modified version of an existing game even it does not add any value, and that the CSDb "very much prefers" freeware "cracks" over the originals that are "available anyway" although they understand that some individuals started to release original games directly to the scene, which could therefore exceptionally be considered scene releases.
The rules also state that whining about the rules is prohibited.
Well let's get out of here then. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: The rules say that a crack is basically any modified version of an existing game even it does not add any value, and that the CSDb "very much prefers" freeware "cracks" over the originals that are "available anyway" although they understand that some individuals started to release original games directly to the scene, which could therefore exceptionally be considered scene releases.
The rules also state that whining about the rules is prohibited.
Well let's get out of here then.
Good point. I also think that games that are released directly to the scene are scene releases. (And cracks and introlinked versions of such games are extremely pointless (except of when improvement, trainers, and such things add the value to the original game, and than only when the game seems to be finished by the author who doesn't seem to be willing to release any other versions))
;-) |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
So the same should apply for e.g Metal Warrior games from Covert Bitops then? They have their own release here too.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
these aren't commercial releases, and thus belong here. |
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Courage
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16 |
http://www.quernhorst.de/atari/mwt.html
http://www.quernhorst.de/atari/mw4.html
Great idea for great games btw. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
i guess you fail to see the difference between freeware and commercial releases.... or whats your point? |
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Courage
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 16 |
Nope, I fail to see the difference between to be a scener or not if you release something for the C64 in the years 2000+. In my opinion it doesn't matter if it's freeware or commercial. We should be happy that anyone releases anything for that computer. We all should bunch our energy instead of this stupid feud. ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:In my opinion it doesn't matter if it's freeware or commercial.
and thats the point where most people here disagree with. scroll up and read what radiantx said. the thread could have ended there, because everything was said already. |
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MacGyver
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 149 |
Let's see when the first one suggests to remove all events from CSDb which required to pay an entrance fee. This makes them commercial and therefor such an event can't be scene.
*lol* |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
and all groups with pay members |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
What Hollowman said. |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
If anyone set up a game creators' data base I'd be happy to contribute. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
yeah...you people probably just need a hug or something |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
...or something hehe |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quote: If anyone set up a game creators' data base I'd be happy to contribute.
http://www.gb64.com/
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
GB64 is a fine game database, but not a game creators' database. What I could imagine is a DB that is more focused on post-1992 games and the people behind. Fewer entries than in GB64, more info in each entry. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
what i could imagine is that about 10 people are interisted in such a database if you can't download the games there =P |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
So if the beef is with the rules (or wording of them) maybe it'd be better to adjust them slightly rather than go into trouble of creating of yet another C64 related site..
That said, IMO game and demo creation arts (and possibly even cracking once we get to a deep enough level of modification and effort) are equal, 174848 bytes or multiple thereof set into correct values, somehow I get the feeling that MorGorr wants added glory by having a small dedicated database :)
Btw. I checked the changed rules text, and in some ways it's rather sorry reading (sorry!) giving a sort of quite mentally unbalanced impression, rather than a benevolent, knowledgeful dictator which the CSDB should (IMO) represent as an entity. I know there's the problem of issues that have no clear-cut right answers but just some editing of the text & wording would probably give better impression. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
feel free to suggest better wording :) we know they aren't optimal (then again, what is?). we just felt the need to write down what we *thought* would be common knowledge. but last not least the barracuda BS taught us we were very wrong, and that we need to write it out. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
This is a thoroughly silly discussion. Releases made unto the scene should be in this database, scene-related events should be in this database, scene groups should be here. Commercial games should not be here, unless they are scene releases (no games that I know of). Games and companies that are distinctively anti-scene should definitely not have entries here, nor should they want to.
This site is about the C64 scene. It's not a tricky concept, there's no need for trying to find semantic loopholes to be able to insert your non-scene productions into it. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: This is a thoroughly silly discussion. Releases made unto the scene should be in this database, scene-related events should be in this database, scene groups should be here. Commercial games should not be here, unless they are scene releases (no games that I know of). Games and companies that are distinctively anti-scene should definitely not have entries here, nor should they want to.
This site is about the C64 scene. It's not a tricky concept, there's no need for trying to find semantic loopholes to be able to insert your non-scene productions into it.
Antiscene companies in 2007? buhahahahahahahhahahahahahhaha haha ahha ahha haha hahahhahhaaha. .
... fell off from chair...
Yeah, let's burn the evil PTV.
GPZ: I agree with you, this debate never solves anything. It would be best to lock it for few years until we all grow up, finally. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
All I wanted was deletion of some commercial entries.
What have I done? /o\
Booohoohoohooo ;-( |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: All I wanted was deletion of some commercial entries.
What have I done? /o\
Booohoohoohooo ;-(
I would say that every action has it's reaction. And every reaction has it's historical reasons and motivations.
But apart from that ^. According to the CSDB rules, commercial releases shouldn't be in this database so let's move them out isntead of talking about it.
The other thing is, that there also shouldn't be cracks of the currently sold games, if the developer (that is still seeling them) asks for that. I think it would be fair. And I don't say mustn't, I say shouldn't. So if the cracking scene and Perff decides to drive the illegal part of this database by the old (draconic (russian term for cruel ;-)) rules, that's really their decision .
Next! ;-) |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Quote: what i could imagine is that about 10 people are interisted in such a database if you can't download the games there =P
Freeware originals would of course always be there. Introlinked versions are "available elsewhere", you know.
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
interisting twist you are doing there. for a second i thought you were implying that "freeware originals" don't have it's place here. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Is it that they don't, if the author rigorously denies belonging to scene? :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
doubtful, A Life in Hell has been denying it over and over, yet he is there :o) it's not yourself who decides wether you are part of the scene, the scene does. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Quote: doubtful, A Life in Hell has been denying it over and over, yet he is there :o) it's not yourself who decides wether you are part of the scene, the scene does.
You get a certificate through the post an' everything! =-) |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Quote: interisting twist you are doing there. for a second i thought you were implying that "freeware originals" don't have it's place here.
In the rules you say quite clearly that freeware originals are admitted only exceptionally. This is unsustainable. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
oh noes. we dont want games which have no relation to the scene whatsoever in a scene database. unsustainable indeed. /o\ |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
See and this is exactly the attitude I am talking about and that will probably never change. So be happy with your introlinking friends - I am going to stop writing here soon (after all it has been a good idea to stay away from this place all these years). |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: See and this is exactly the attitude I am talking about and that will probably never change. So be happy with your introlinking friends - I am going to stop writing here soon (after all it has been a good idea to stay away from this place all these years).
Bye! \o/~
On topic, some of those PTV entries are locked.
Could one of the mods delete them?
Cheers. |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
The fact that Protovision is a scene group selling their releases doesn't make a difference here? They release scene related stuff too, and they do games. So what if they sell them aswell?
I guess Fairlight among others are in deep shit too then? Since you could buy our entire collection from Bacchus on a CD?
Ah, whatever... as it really makes any big difference these days anyways?
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
Quote: The fact that Protovision is a scene group selling their releases doesn't make a difference here? They release scene related stuff too, and they do games. So what if they sell them aswell?
I guess Fairlight among others are in deep shit too then? Since you could buy our entire collection from Bacchus on a CD?
Ah, whatever... as it really makes any big difference these days anyways?
Protovision is a scene group? Huh? And Sledge, you're comparing old skool FUCKING rocking (Eeeh, atleast old skool) --/¤) FAiRLiGHT (¤\-- with a bunch of german lamers? Jesus, and i used to call you board. ;)
Hum, wonder if this post will be deleted right away or immediately. /()\ |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote:
Protovision is a scene group? Huh? And Sledge, you're comparing old skool FUCKING rocking (Eeeh, atleast old skool) --/¤) FAiRLiGHT (¤\-- with a bunch of german lamers? Jesus, and i used to call you board. ;)
Hum, wonder if this post will be deleted right away or immediately. /()\
Those "lamers" made (distributed, supported, helped to develop) some of the most playable (and maybe even most played) games of last years. It seems that germany's most favourite sport (ridiculing your own mates) is very infectious disease.. some weaker natures can get it even across the ocean ;-) And yes, I was considering deleting it, but maybe some other moderators will share your (excuse moi) retarded opinion. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Nonetheless, this isn't a question whether or not 1) Protovision belongs here (they do!) or if 2) their stuff belongs here (it does!). What bothers me is 3) the stuff which isn't 100% available here - the stuff which I listed as "commercial spots" above. They're not really complete entries, and they're not really pointless either. Now - do they belong here?
Protovision makes nice stuff. Atleast far better stuff than many strict demo sceners manage to achieve. But once again - this is not the question. The question is whether or not empty entries with an added screenshot belong here? Do they?
The question isn't really about whether or not you care, or whether the entries are harmless or not - the question is whether or not CSDb is a suitable place for commercial-spots? Is it? |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
I don't see the reason why Protovision or any other commercial company should be included in the C64 SCENE Data Base. Protovision is a "great" contributer to the C64 -community- but dosn't belong here.
My opinions may be retarded, Cream Pie, so here's another one; Protovision sucks, and so does their games. And yes, i DO play new games, Zoo Mania and Greenrunner are two games i've enjoyed tremendously. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: I don't see the reason why Protovision or any other commercial company should be included in the C64 SCENE Data Base. Protovision is a "great" contributer to the C64 -community- but dosn't belong here.
My opinions may be retarded, Cream Pie, so here's another one; Protovision sucks, and so does their games. And yes, i DO play new games, Zoo Mania and Greenrunner are two games i've enjoyed tremendously.
I didn't ask if you play new games. And the fact that you do, doesn't make your previous opinion less retarded.
CreamPie |
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
Quote: See and this is exactly the attitude I am talking about and that will probably never change. So be happy with your introlinking friends - I am going to stop writing here soon (after all it has been a good idea to stay away from this place all these years).
Bye bye , nobody will miss you at all ! |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
God damn it!
I took well over 30 minutes to compose a post and when I hit 'submit', all was lost!!!
Good for you, perhaps... I made my story a lot short :-)
The problem with this thread is that people are discussing different matters at the same time.
1) define the c64 scene
2) is any freeware a scene release?
3) is Protovision part of the scene?
Definition of the c64 scene:
A social network based on the sharing of individual and group efforts to create and modify C64 releated hardware, software and media without the pursuit of financial gain, centered around, but not solely focused on, demos and cracks.
Scene releases are a freely available products produced by members of the scene in order to display skills in creating or modifying hardware, software or media for the C64 and to inform and entertain fellow scene members.
Protovision is not part of the scene, as they produce for financial gain and do not take part in scene activities other than for their own commercial good.
Oh, and about this:
Quote:having entries for the PTV payware originals means being at the same level as the retard introlinking scene.
Unfair point, because what about the great coders and artists who produce gems of demos?
Untrue, because the quality level of a release is NOT a criterion for being in CSDb.
And a rather pointless remark too, as it only proves that Protovision should NOT be in CSDb...
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote:Protovision is not part of the scene, as they produce for financial gain and do not take part in scene activities other than for their own commercial good.
Ah, but that's not true...If you look at the Protovision releases listed in this database, you will find that Protovision has released several compo pictures, compo tunes, even a demo or two, and arranged a party, Vision, where several sceners showed up and released demos. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote:(Protovision not part of the scene)
Ah, but that's not true... Ok, that was knowledge I didn't have (because I didn't care to investigate).
In that case Protovision could well be in CSDb, but only in relation to those non-commercial releases. |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
Quote: I didn't ask if you play new games. And the fact that you do, doesn't make your previous opinion less retarded.
CreamPie
So, exactly what did you ask again, mr mooooooooooooderator?
I belive everyone here should be able to express their
opinions, may they be uncomfortable, critical or generally slugish. And that's without them beeing called retarded by forum moderators.
The (C64) scene to me is holy, and so is this data base while software publishers for the C64/whatever have come and gone, damn, some did make millions of dollars/Pounds/Whatever and still they couldn't survive because of lack of organisation, management, or simply because they tend to release shit. Long gone are Ocean, Software Projects, Us Gold and many more. But one thing will always survive, the scene. Driven by people with passion, engagement and true data spirit. There's a reason why groups like FLT and F4CG are still around...
Jidderish BoNaNZa. True, but i tend to go where my heart leads me, Mr CreaMD, and if you feel my opinions are retarded, hell, they might be. |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Okay, so on the one hand we've previously allowed entries to be added for developers like X-Ample or BWB who were scene groups that moved into game dev, but i think the biggest difference between them and the PTV entries is that the latter are pretty much just adverts for commercial products rather than "furthering" the database. PTV itself does belong in the database due to it's heritage, the Vision parties, scene-related releases and members, but i do feel that the commercially released (and unavailable, at least here) game entries aren't directly part of the scene, rather they're sold to the larger C64 community (of which the scene is a subset) and probably shouldn't be in the Db for that reason. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
1) define the c64 scene
My definition is very simple. C64 scene is a large group of creative individuals gathered around C64.
2) is any freeware a scene release?
No.
3) is Protovision part of the scene?
Some Protovision members are part of the scene. Some of their releases are scene releases.
--
This way, someone who visits lemon to talk about games isn't a C64 scener. Someone who prints a magazine related to C64 isn't automatically a C64 scener. But can be, if he does have contacts with the scene and the magazine covers C64 scene. Not all parties/meetings are scene meetings. Some are power user meetings, some are retro parties. Some developers have C64 roots but lost connection to the C64 scene. Other developers were never part of the scene but somehow joined it by doing more an more C64 scene releases of various kind. Protovision is run by people who were or became part of the scene and some of their productions were released for the scene. That is what made Protovision is part of the scene. They didn't decide upon that, it happened when some of their members releases something as scene release.
---
I disagree with this:
>Protovision is not part of the scene, as they produce for financial gain and do not take part in scene activities other than for their own commercial good.
You only look at the financial aspect of their activities. But if that was only thing that motivates them, they would never produce anything. You cann't get rich on producing of C64 games nowadays. I don't know how much they ever earned on selling of their software but I doubt it is anything that I personally would find attractive. What drives some of their developers to produce things is enthusiasm and pride. They want to do something great for C64 and this THING is something that shared accross the whole scene base. This is what makes them sceners in my eyes. Of course, their commercial game releases aren't scene releases unless they decide so and release them as such. Currently the commercialy sold games shouldn't be in the CSDB. We can agree on that.
>...only proves that Protovision should NOT be in CSDb...
Protovision should be in CSDB. As far as opinions of their individual members are concerned, that's really their problem that they can't communicate with the scene properly, but the fact that some of their members have problems with some sceners doesn't make the releases non-scene. I remember one case when a scener wanted to remove all releases (fixes) of his group.
We (moderators group) are strongly against the abuse of this database and we won't allow removal of scene accounts or scene releases just because someone can't cope with how scene works. On the other hand, if release is not fitting the internal rules, it should be removed. Probably for the same reason there aren't music collection releases from Steve Rowlands although someone might miss them and probably there isn't better place where they could be currently archived. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Okay, so on the one hand we've previously allowed entries to be added for developers like X-Ample or BWB who were scene groups that moved into game dev, but i think the biggest difference between them and the PTV entries is that the latter are pretty much just adverts for commercial products rather than "furthering" the database. PTV itself does belong in the database due to it's heritage, the Vision parties, scene-related releases and members, but i do feel that the commercially released (and unavailable, at least here) game entries aren't directly part of the scene, rather they're sold to the larger C64 community (of which the scene is a subset) and probably shouldn't be in the Db for that reason.
And yes. What TMR said! |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Quote:There's a reason why groups like FLT and F4CG are still around
Okay...I don't have anything against Sixx or F4CG and I'm not exactly Protovision's biggest fan, but according to CSDb:
Non commercial releases by F4CG in the last 7 years: 0
Non commercial releases by Protovision in the last 7 years: 27 |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
@ CreaMD
Quote:You only look at the financial aspect of their activities. But if that was only thing that motivates them, they would never produce anything. Money isn't the only thing that motivates them to create anything, but it IS the motivation to sell products through the company called Protovision. Therefor, commercially available products should not be in CSDb.
Quote:Of course, their commercial game releases aren't scene releases unless they decide so and release them as such. Currently the commercialy sold games shouldn't be in the CSDB. We can agree on that. We just did. ;-)
Quote:They want to do something great for C64 and this THING is something that shared accross the whole scene base. This is what makes them sceners in my eyes. I wasn't denying that the separate members are sceners. I was denying that Protovision is a scene related group.
However, as Vanja pointed out, they DID produce scene products. And so I corrected myself by saying that Protovision is indeed scene related, hence they can be in CSDb.
Our posts must have crossed eachother :-)
@ Vanja
Quote:Non commercial releases by F4CG in the last 7 years: 0
Non commercial releases by Protovision in the last 7 years: 27 Hehehe, touché... pity 'time' isn't a criterion either :)
@ TMR
What you said. But that was easy, we already did all the thinking for you! ;-) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
@ Mace:
Quote:Hehehe, touché... pity 'time' isn't a criterion either :)
It was just in response to Sixx writing "F4CG are still around" after claiming Protovision doesn't belong here.
Time is indeed irrelevant, but I personally wouldn't shout too loud about Protovision not belonging here if my last recorded release dated back to sometime in the previous century. :)
Curse those pesky statistics, eh? |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 749 |
Doesn't matter Mace, i said it better so ppphhhpppt! =-) |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Quote: @ Mace:
Quote:Hehehe, touché... pity 'time' isn't a criterion either :)
It was just in response to Sixx writing "F4CG are still around" after claiming Protovision doesn't belong here.
Time is indeed irrelevant, but I personally wouldn't shout too loud about Protovision not belonging here if my last recorded release dated back to sometime in the previous century. :)
Curse those pesky statistics, eh?
What can I say, Vanja. Time hasn't really changed when it comes to Sixx ;) Sixx has always been what he is. Ta det med en nypa salt som man säger ;D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
pretty funny how those who demand "respect" from the scene (in the sense of the scene not making their productions available for public download) turn around just to call the scene a bunch of "retarded introlinking friends" :=)
hint: that wont earn you respect at all. bye. |
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Sixx
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 229 |
Quote: @ Mace:
Quote:Hehehe, touché... pity 'time' isn't a criterion either :)
It was just in response to Sixx writing "F4CG are still around" after claiming Protovision doesn't belong here.
Time is indeed irrelevant, but I personally wouldn't shout too loud about Protovision not belonging here if my last recorded release dated back to sometime in the previous century. :)
Curse those pesky statistics, eh?
I was talking about the scene as whole, not just C64 scene activities.
Aaaand, i find all other opinions than mine R E T A R D E D.
=) |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: you read what Groepaz said, eh?.... now eat your words! :P
To answer your question and suggestion: Yes. No.
My post was half joking, but exceptions in rules are just that - exceptions which happen to fit ideas of those writing rules. |
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Sledge
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 102 |
Should we agree to close this thread now? Atleast until we have thought this over and have a normal discussion around this matter? Ok? |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
What is there to discuss - really?
1) Protovision belongs here. They are a part of the scene.
2) Their scenerelated stuff belongs here.
3) Their commercial-spots do not belong here. Can somebody please wipe them, unless it's done allready? |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Quote: pretty funny how those who demand "respect" from the scene (in the sense of the scene not making their productions available for public download) turn around just to call the scene a bunch of "retarded introlinking friends" :=)
hint: that wont earn you respect at all. bye.
I never called the "scene", as such, a bunch of anything.
On the one hand, I was talking about "retarded introlinkers". You know what I mean and you know that it exists. You also know that not all "sceners" belong to that group any I never said that.
On the other hand, I was talking about "your introlinking friends" because from what you said it seemed to me that you have more respect even for a simple introlink with no extras (20 minutes of work) than for game creation (months of work). Your rules say you "very much prefer" modified versions, without any quality criterion while originals are admitted only "exceptionally". I can live very well without a database with such rules (and BTW I don't need the "bye"s of people I have never been in contact with anyway, except PMs they nobly ignored).
You also know that game modifications (what you call cracks) and of course the games themselves can have very diverse levels of quality. However, to give just a very obvious example, starting at the low end of the scale, you will agree that even very bad games often have more value than a simple introlink without extras.
Logic says that everyone should be respected for the work they do and the value they create. I am not generalizing anything, I am just challenging your logic. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:
On the other hand, I was talking about "your introlinking friends" because from what you said it seemed to me that you have more respect even for a simple introlink with no extras (20 minutes of work) than for game creation (months of work). Your rules say you "very much prefer" modified versions, without any quality criterion while originals are admitted only "exceptionally". I can live very well without a database with such rules (and BTW I don't need the "bye"s of people I have never been in contact with anyway, except PMs they nobly ignored).
You also know that game modifications (what you call cracks) and of course the games themselves can have very diverse levels of quality. However, to give just a very obvious example, starting at the low end of the scale, you will agree that even very bad games often have more value than a simple introlink without extras.
Logic says that everyone should be respected for the work they do and the value they create. I am not generalizing anything, I am just challenging your logic.
you are still missing the point. this isnt about respecting the work of those who make quality games. infact, i personally have much more respect for those who do a decent game, than for those who call introlinking "cracking". and i'd even go as far as calling the latter utterly lame.
however, in the context of csdb that is irrelevant. the point is that crackers and their cracks, no matter how lame they are (quality is irrelevant in the context of csdb), are part of what most people refer to as "the scene". and commercial game producers aren't. csdb (tries to) document the scene and their productions. commercial games and their producers are out of the scope of csdb. if you want that, go to gamebase. and if that isnt good enough, make your own site.
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Trazan
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 620 |
I see the "discussion" is repeating itself over and over, the thread is really not going anywhere.. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Trazan, on the contrary I think that last two posts from Morgorr and Groepaz came as close as possible to some kind of consensus. Which I find very positive. |
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MorGorr
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 47 |
Groepaz, I am not talking about commercial games. I COULD argue that payware is "scene" as well but that was not my point.
You say being in the the CSBd does not imply quality. OK, then you should admit not only crap introlinks but also crap freeware games. And not as an exception, but as the rule.
You say implicitly that a crap introlink is always welcome even if you don't like it, while games are only OK "exceptionally", that is, if you DO like them and decide they are "scene".
Note that I COULD HAVE opened entries for my few (more or less crap) freeware originals and probably nobody would have said anything against it - "exceptionally" ;-)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
Quote:
You say implicitly that a crap introlink is always welcome even if you don't like it, while games are only OK "exceptionally", that is, if you DO like them and decide they are "scene".
the exception is that we allow them if they are made by someone who also made other scene related stuff, it has nothing to do with wether we like them or not. this is way protovision as a group does have an entry here, and ocean doesnt. and my sister doesnt either, although she made a seuck game, which somehow probably even found its way into the scene :)
and no, we don't "decide" if they are "scene". it is very obvious in most cases wether they are or not (and most of the time, they are not).
if you want a database that collects all and every crappy seuck- or basic game made by people who maybe by YOUR definition are sceners.... gamebase is for you. csdb doesnt do that. |
