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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Release id #93168 : CSDb Quantify Me
does this belong here? |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3197 |
A simple link to a site that will be gone in some year i'd say no. Even the "content" is questionable, making some stats from csdb uploads does not reflect what's really out there, 50% of the cracks aswell as hundreds if not thousands of demos and mags are not even uploaded here so the stats are just a wild guess.
If it's really a concern to someone to have it as a csdb entry, make a proper release and upload it. If not a c64 production, at least a pdf. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
The stats are just a wild guess? Let me teach you something about statistics. It's the law of size of the data. I do not claim the numbers to be exact in an absolute way. But approx 75.000 releases is more than large enough to show the curves I've shown to represent the relative positions. I am not interested in absolute numbers, it's the proportions and distributions I am mostly interested in. I am certain you are not going to find another 88.000 genuine scene releases from the past, and even if you would, there is no reason to assume that it would effect the distributions and proportions in a big way. Sure, there may be a few slight shifts, but nothing that would make the current figures a "wild guess". I find it rather insulting. I am not claiming 100% accuracy, as I also wrote in the text itself, far from it.
I am more than happy to delete the entry as a release. [EDIT] Oh wait, Marauder uploaded a PDF?
[EDIT2] Yes he did. Looks nice. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3197 |
Anyone is entitled of his opinion. Or have I to ask your permission to express what I think of it? To me this kind of stuff is just a nice article for a mag, as a standalone release it's not belonging here. But that's just me, moderators will decide.
While at it, can I convert to text some article *I think* it's interesting and upload it here as a release? ;*) |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
You know, that last comment is just blowing this thing totally out of proportion and into something else. Of couse everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion. But what I show is CSDb raw data, and not some opinion. Dry stats. That is all. This is CSDb is it not? Yes it is. And so exceptionally relevant, imho. |
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Tao
Registered: Aug 2002
Posts: 115 |
Quote: The stats are just a wild guess? Let me teach you something about statistics. It's the law of size of the data. I do not claim the numbers to be exact in an absolute way. But approx 75.000 releases is more than large enough to show the curves I've shown to represent the relative positions. I am not interested in absolute numbers, it's the proportions and distributions I am mostly interested in. I am certain you are not going to find another 88.000 genuine scene releases from the past, and even if you would, there is no reason to assume that it would effect the distributions and proportions in a big way. Sure, there may be a few slight shifts, but nothing that would make the current figures a "wild guess". I find it rather insulting. I am not claiming 100% accuracy, as I also wrote in the text itself, far from it.
I am more than happy to delete the entry as a release. [EDIT] Oh wait, Marauder uploaded a PDF?
[EDIT2] Yes he did. Looks nice.
Personally I definitely think this is an interesting release. As for statistical validity, I'd say that the numbers from 1986-2000 probably are on the low side. As the releases become more recent, people are more likely to still have copies, and of course almost all recent releases are uploaded directly to CSDb.
Still, that doesn't really alter the main point of the graph -- showing what the most active years were... |
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STE'86
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 274 |
yeah i'm with this being an interesting addition to this database.
even more so if the hard figures can be matched against historical events.
if this isnt valid as a 64 file then perhaps this database needs another section like the "support files" section over at World of Spectrum.
Steve |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Way to go to delete the release guys, nice. Absolutely brilliant behaviour. Tonight I will definitely drink to your good health. It is such a tough job, but you perform it extremely well and I can only admire every move you make.
Oh, I have an idea, perhaps you should now concern yourself with finding out the release dates of those thousands of undated releases here at CSDb. Would aid my further analyses.
Sorry Marauder, but rest assured your effort was not in vain as I've uploaded the PDF you created to Xentax. Thanks also to all the rest of you that do appreciate the hard work that I've put into that. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
We understand you have put a lot of work into it, but I'd really HATE to see CSDb degrading to a repository of articles about the scene. I'd rather have the scene dead, than that. |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Can't this document be added to the Statistics page of CSDb somehow? I can't see any strong arguments against it belonging in there.
(If you're worried about CSDb degrading, how about doing something about the fact that every single revision of every tool out there are being added as a separate release?)
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3197 |
because the rules says so, and has a logic: overwriting an old release with something newer is like history revisionism. New version, new entry. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: We understand you have put a lot of work into it, but I'd really HATE to see CSDb degrading to a repository of articles about the scene. I'd rather have the scene dead, than that.
Ah yes, but then perhaps something is missing from the CSDb. If sceners like me write about the scene on the C64, like I did in Addybook, then it is ok, but if a scener writes about the scene outside the breadbox in 2010, it is not considered scene material? So in essence, if I would write 10 PRINT "CSDB RULES ARE FISHY" : RUN , save it to a disk and upload it as a Fake Demo this is considered as a genuine Scene Release, and a thorough analysis of the scene's productive history (or at least an attempt at that, let's by rightfully modest here) based on the data collected by the very authority when it comes to archiving the C64 Scene's productions is not a Scene release?
That is just semantics, I fear. I read it as the Commodore 64 SCENE database, not as the Commodore 64 scene database-OF-ANYTHING-RELEASED-ON-AN-ACTUAL-C64. My bad. I made a serious error. Of course, in this day and age, anything you have to say about the scene, as a scener, and for the scene, you must write in max 64K and in 8-bit. If you don't, it is not for us, and it should not be archived. Got it. Sorry for all the misunderstanding. I'll behave now. Anyone got a PDF2D64 converter? |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
@iAN: New version, yes. But for every revision/bugfix?
It seems to me much more logical to keep only major versions (1.x, 2.x and so on) as separate releases, and then just collect the revisions/bugfixes as separate downloads within the release.
And sorry, I don't buy the "because the rules says so" as an argument against discussing possible improvements to the CSDb. Surely the rules weren't etched into stone tablets and carried down a mountainside by an old man?
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3197 |
Quote:
keep only major versions (1.x, 2.x and so on)
So, for example, if I named my new version of Unp64, 3.0 instead of 2.23, would be ok for you to have a different entry? =) They ARE different, and I HAVE released them, so they HAVE to be archived because here we archive the RELEASES of C64 scene related productions.
Between 2.22 and 2.23 there were at least 50 minor versions, because I update it daily but only on my site.
If others feel to actually release each modification they do on their demos, their problem, the entry for the new version must be done, and never replace the previous one.
Same goes with party versions and final versions of demos, they are NEVER marked with a version number, and they HAVE to be archived if they are spread (unless burned at party place of course).
About the rules, I just follow them, I'm not in my house here so I can't say "I don't like your rules and I don't want to follow them". If you don't like them, you CAN try to make them change or failing to do so, you can just leave, there are not many others possibilities. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
Quote: Ah yes, but then perhaps something is missing from the CSDb. If sceners like me write about the scene on the C64, like I did in Addybook, then it is ok, but if a scener writes about the scene outside the breadbox in 2010, it is not considered scene material? So in essence, if I would write 10 PRINT "CSDB RULES ARE FISHY" : RUN , save it to a disk and upload it as a Fake Demo this is considered as a genuine Scene Release, and a thorough analysis of the scene's productive history (or at least an attempt at that, let's by rightfully modest here) based on the data collected by the very authority when it comes to archiving the C64 Scene's productions is not a Scene release?
That is just semantics, I fear. I read it as the Commodore 64 SCENE database, not as the Commodore 64 scene database-OF-ANYTHING-RELEASED-ON-AN-ACTUAL-C64. My bad. I made a serious error. Of course, in this day and age, anything you have to say about the scene, as a scener, and for the scene, you must write in max 64K and in 8-bit. If you don't, it is not for us, and it should not be archived. Got it. Sorry for all the misunderstanding. I'll behave now. Anyone got a PDF2D64 converter?
"not as the Commodore 64 scene database-OF-ANYTHING-RELEASED-ON-AN-ACTUAL-C64"
yes, and its not Google web archives. |
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Like I said, then there is something missing from CSDb. But you are not listening, so I'll quit wasting my time on non-issues. The history of the scene is important, your actions as mods are not. |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
@iAN: If you reread my previous comment, you'll see I suggested to add minor versions as separate downloads within a single release. So they will all be archived. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quoting Mr. Mouse I'll behave now. Anyone got a PDF2D64 converter?
There's always BASICpoint :)
http://basicpoint.jamtronix.com/ |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quoting Perplex@iAN: If you reread my previous comment, you'll see I suggested to add minor versions as separate downloads within a single release. So they will all be archived.
Only new releases are published in the RSS feeds. Updating an existing entry is an "invisible" action so no one will see the new version being released. On CSDB a new release means a new entry, even if the changes are minor.
It would be useful if you could somehow link entries though, to point to a newer version if available. |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
@MV: Good point, though I'd guess modifying the RSS feeds to include new uploads to existing releases shouldn't be too hard? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
it wouldnt be, if that'd be what we wanted =)
also Mr.Mouse "The history of the scene is important, your actions as mods are not." - please take ATLEAST the time to find out that (until this post) no single mod was even involved into this thread. |
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quoting PerplexGood point, though I'd guess modifying the RSS feeds to include new uploads to existing releases shouldn't be too hard?
But not all new uploads are new releases.
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Mr. Mouse
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 235 |
Quote: it wouldnt be, if that'd be what we wanted =)
also Mr.Mouse "The history of the scene is important, your actions as mods are not." - please take ATLEAST the time to find out that (until this post) no single mod was even involved into this thread.
I know. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
Commodore Scenebook Db ? Nah... :)
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