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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
<Post edited by moderator on 5/11-2021 17:53>
[Moved from comments] to the forums:
Quote:
User Comment
Submitted by spider-j [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is just silly.
User Comment
Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
"fuck no :D"
LAMER! :D
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Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
> Even ripping should be kind of effort.
fuck no :D
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@2bt: it's absolutely not about fear of losing trade secrets - if anybody is that desperate, one will always find a way ;) It's about people taking what they want/need/desire the lazy way via shortcut because they feel entitled to. Even ripping should be kind of effort. And real demoscene was always about genuine effort, wasn't it? ;)
User Comment
Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think the protector would cause such a stir either! I wrote a sid>sng and sid>cheesecutter tool a few years ago. Your code is much cleaner than mine! :-) Also, CC is far easier to rip.
User Comment
Submitted by 2bt [PM] on 5 November 2021
I didn't think sid2sng would cause such a stir. Protect your sid if you feel that you must. :)
I never knew people would fear that their instruments get revealed. You can just look at the dump or use SID Monitor to get a pretty good idea how a particular sound is achieved. There is no protection against that (and why would you want it anyways?).
User Comment
Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Mibri i guess your right. Moved to forums. Release id #211073 : GT Protect (Goat Tracker .SID Protector)
User Comment
Submitted by Groepaz [PM] on 5 November 2021
lovely reactions here :)
If you cant derive the sounds using siddump you dont deserve using them anyway :=) So thumbs up :=)
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just remember dear C64 cock stuffed people. There is just 1 more gen. Then you have your stardust blown away to nobody listening!
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Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
well i guess i do understand this abit more now. Was just abit fed up.
User Comment
Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
No one wants to discourage or alienate new composers. As has been stated here at least twice already, experienced composers are generally happy to share their knowledge, even their workfiles, so that's not the issue. Swapping stuff between friends is a vital part of the scene's roots, but you have to have some contact with (and respect from) who you're taking from - that's just showing a bit of class.
Back on the 'learning' thing: the way to learn is to do a lot of listening while developing a personal style by doing your own messing around in your chosen tools, and the process never ends. I'm quite sure that's how everyone does it.
Is it time to shunt this discussion to the Forums yet?
User Comment
Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@TheRyk he has used goattracker tho only for 2 tunes
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Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Why do I even greet half of you in the few demos I make?
So an artist means, even in 2021 can't be a hidden gem/technique etc.
Maybe the new rule would be to show even code and music at demo-parties is open-sources,
just as my artwork in 5 workstages, in this so hegemonic homogenic scene is.
For-whatever it's worth it's not more than 1 generation more before it's lost in dust.
Use your time, know your friends and get on with it!
User Comment
Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Joe haha why should i :) As a kinda new sid musician who has just now started to actually take sid music seriously i think that checking out other musicians sid files to learn is kind of a thing to do and things like these are the ones to kind of make beginner/intermediate c64 musicians kind of half pissed
User Comment
Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Hey.
Please read this in the manner it was meant: I have utmost respect for anyone who gives a crap about C64 / SID.
I just feel people should be given a choice. If people are happy to share, they won't try to protect the files. So what's the problem? There are already 10000's of GT tunes to learn from and it's likely that most in the future will also not be protected if that's what the composer wishes.
I'm also all for learning. Do a search on YouTube for the 1:30 hour video I created on how I use SIDTracker. The fact that I also gave the whole Turrican SID away with that tool too.
But that was *my* choice.
That's all I've got to say.
User Comment
Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
Be civil!
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Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
I'm more than happy to share my sng but.. well... good luck with using any of my fucked up instruments as they usually also require appropriate interaction between channels :D
User Comment
Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
@Jammer Didnt think it was that exact But Okay
User Comment
Submitted by Jammer [PM] on 5 November 2021
@That8BitChiptuneGuy: what Mibri exactly said ;)
User Comment
Submitted by That8BitChiptuneGuy [PM] on 5 November 2021
Rated it a 1 because there are people who want to learn goattracker who want to learn by checking their favourite sid musicians sng files.
Say someone like me who want to get to the levels of musicians like iunno. Jammer, LMan, Fanta, etc etc. Probably wants to learn goattracker by checking out how they do it. Also to those who are thinking but theyll steal my instruments they probably wont. And even if they do maybe a fresh tune will maybe come out eh? And this isnt needed since you can convert to a swm (sid wizard module file) and then export to sid from that. I refuse to steal instruments (unless its something like futurecomposer style instruments).
User Comment
Submitted by Mibri [PM] on 5 November 2021
Most experienced musicians are very happy to talk shop and share their knowledge - hell, they'll even share their SNG files with people they have a rapport with. Sharing is cool. But if you think that saving 'instrument' presets from converted files or whatever is going to help your music, well, it doesn't really work like that. Composers need to use their ears and do their own experiments. Otherwise, what's the point? This is not elitism; I only insist on a bit of craft and honesty.
So, nice one Jason. :D
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
damn timeout for editing comments!11!11
The sid that can't be protected without altering its output I tested is The Required Fields
User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
yup 2021, times of open source, and we're dealing with C64 music file instrument protection software...
maybe 2bt or spider will "crack" that silly thing :D
User Comment
Submitted by iAN CooG [PM] on 5 November 2021
Heh, clever, works by shuffling a couple of tables in the sid files so sid2sng gets confused on what to do, as it expects them in a fixed order.
Now I'm expecting a counter-tool to restore the tables in the original places and let sid2sng do its work :D
Edit: Siddump shows a couple of differences from the original and the protected version of the same sid, so it's not guaranteed they will sound the same after the alteration.
User Comment
Submitted by TheRyk [PM] on 5 November 2021
I beg to differ
And it's even worse that it's by someone who AFAIR doesn't use GT anyway
Two thumbs down from me
User Comment
Submitted by Joe [PM] on 5 November 2021
This is so incredibly cool; I don't know where to start! Don't steal my instruments MR! :D
Don't steal that snare!
User Comment
Submitted by Jason Page [PM] on 5 November 2021
Just for those who want to protect their GoatTracker .sid files from being converted back to .sng files :-)
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vincenzo
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 78 |
Just yesterday I was about to bump up an old thread about "is it appropriate to use already released tunes in a prod?". I was about to write that I am happy to share my knowledge and my released tracks with anyone who asks me. I think I was and I am still very open about this topic whenever we talk about SID composing with anyone. I received a query from 2 person only. One of them was interested to hear about SID Factory II, the other was asking for a new track for a new prod.
So what Mibri wrote into the comment section of this GT protector tool is still valid, people should ask and they shall get answer(s). However, I'm not seeing that people ask, they just want to have everything without doing the necessary steps.
This actually applies to using already released music without asking the composer if it's okay to reuse it.
Guys, the active scene is getting smaller and smaller. Sharing is caring and I think at least 99.99% of the active composers are very happy to share their talent. And their knowledge and their released tunes and their work files as well.
Please, be nice and make a composer happy by talking to us if you need something music related. You will get what you want, and we will be happy to hear our music in productions. This applies to knowledge sharing too, we are happy to see that new people want to explore SID music and we will help. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11119 |
has its moments |
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Frostbyte
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 169 |
I couldn't personally give a flying f**k if someone wants to use my sounds, or at least base their sounds on my sounds, or just look at them to hopefully learn something new. I also wouldn't be offended if someone would find my tunes good enough to use in their prods. Vice versa, I'd be honoured. This is what the scene has been doing from day one (and how I've discovered many great songs in the past - via tunes borrowed to cracktros etc), but maybe the paradigm has shifted in the modern days regarding reuse.
Nevertheless, as I personally see it (and some may disagree): What I've given to the community is not mine anymore, it belongs to the community. Reusing it or learning from it doesn't require my consent, I'm not entitled to it. Do whatever you want with it, just be creative with it. And when it is your turn, give back to the community. In the end, it benefits everyone. |
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Mixer
Registered: Apr 2008
Posts: 422 |
I find this thread very funny, please continue. |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2847 |
I think the tool itself should only be judged on technical merits.
The interesting question is who'll actually use it, and how do we rate the skill of these users? :)
Back when i made +h Emu-Fuxx0r V1.0 and +h Emu-Fuxx0r V2.0 (long before occasional contributions to VICE directly) i was merely in for some Agent Provocateur thing, not using the tool myself but sitting back to see who'd actually use it, and what kind of controversies it would create. There was a notion of "emulamer", however, but that's now long ago. =)
That said... popcorn time!
(And i think it's a-okay to re-use entire tunes, if proper credit is given. Ripping instruments, otoh, should be okayed by the original authors, and then also be properly credited somewhere in tiny script. It's somewhat akin to sampling.) |
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vincenzo
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 78 |
Quote: I think the tool itself should only be judged on technical merits.
The interesting question is who'll actually use it, and how do we rate the skill of these users? :)
Back when i made +h Emu-Fuxx0r V1.0 and +h Emu-Fuxx0r V2.0 (long before occasional contributions to VICE directly) i was merely in for some Agent Provocateur thing, not using the tool myself but sitting back to see who'd actually use it, and what kind of controversies it would create. There was a notion of "emulamer", however, but that's now long ago. =)
That said... popcorn time!
(And i think it's a-okay to re-use entire tunes, if proper credit is given. Ripping instruments, otoh, should be okayed by the original authors, and then also be properly credited somewhere in tiny script. It's somewhat akin to sampling.)
Here, let me provide some popcorn.
It's okay to reuse tunes if proper credits is given. Agreed. It's just sometimes the credit that is missing :)
Not to mention if wrong credit is given.
And to be honest, I would love to be asked and told that my tune worth the reuse in another prod. Makes it tracking easier where it ends up too.
Also, do you just take what's there or ask first if it's okay to be taken? (whatever it is you want)
In the "good old times" it was common to take released tunes without asking. But was it right? Yeah, well, we got used to that because everyone did it.
Nowadays it's so easy to contact (especially active) musicians and ask them if it's okay to reuse a track. Hell, maybe that musician will provide you a brand new and exclusive track for you. I would if I'm asked and have the time for it. So it wouldn't be the 1000000th times heard tunes reused over and over again.
Don't get me wrong on the sharing side, I'm up for it. It's just so much nicer and direct if you ask first. I don't think anybody would say no anyway. |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
How long until we see a .sid cracking scene? |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
Quoting Krill...
The interesting question is who'll actually use it, and how do we rate the skill of these users? :)
...
It's also questionable who'll use sid2sng at all or who'll actually look into the all those .sng files which are freely given (see also sid2sng Windows builds ) - maybe because the points made by Jammer and Mibri that "stealing" .INS alone won't help a lot anyway in cases in which they've been created and used very individually.
Imho it's mainly a matter of attitude/philosophy. To me, SID2SNG means progress and open-mindedness, mystifying GT .SID files to make SID2SNG fail, means the opposite, making things unnecessarily black-box-y again.
That does not mean I lack respect for any of all the great musicians out there who create their instruments from scratch. And the "Is it appropriate to use already released tunes in a prod" without asking is a totally different matter, it's always been that way, and as long as credits are given where credits are due, it's widely accepted.
The points Joe made in the comments address an even more basic view on what is art. Was Andy Warhol just a damn thief or can his stuff like the Campbell Soup be considered art? How about the good old "Good artists copy. Great artists steal"? (Picasso?)
And in general, hold your horses, guys, before you edit your greetings lists, it's okay and normal that there will always remain a wide range of disagreement on such topics :) But I'll also remain a fanboy of Joe and Jason Page no matter different views on concepts. |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 445 |
Why the fuck is someone moving all comments to here even if they don't "discuss" anything? I just made a short comment on the release, no argument ... |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Jason killed the future of the C64 scene. All those young newcomers lurking around the corner won't be able to learn a damn thing thanks to his tool. As if entropy destroying the universe in the long run wasn't enough.
I am outraged and ashamed.
But please continue :) |
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Joe
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 224 |
Thank you @TheRyk! |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
@Spider: It was your favourite Nazi Mod =ME and I uncensored your posting again especially for you <3 |
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fieserWolF
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 3 |
I've got a great idea: what we really need now are sophisticated licences for each sid and each instrument. Let the lawyers do the rest then!
Ah, pass the popcorn, please! |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1031 |
Quote: I've got a great idea: what we really need now are sophisticated licences for each sid and each instrument. Let the lawyers do the rest then!
Ah, pass the popcorn, please!
lol :)
and I'll make a .sid encryption tool and make sure all of hvsc gets protected with it ;)
DRM only available in the pro version though! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11119 |
Quote:Jason killed the future of the C64 scene.
GOOD WORK |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: Jason killed the future of the C64 scene. All those young newcomers lurking around the corner won't be able to learn a damn thing thanks to his tool. As if entropy destroying the universe in the long run wasn't enough.
I am outraged and ashamed.
But please continue :)
Dont worry linus someone is working on a thing that unprotects the sids that are protected so they can still be put into sid2sng!
Someone was able to decompile the code of GTProtect (since it was made in C# and can be decompiled in minutes)
So hope is still here! |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: How long until we see a .sid cracking scene?
not too long :) |
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w4rp8
Registered: Oct 2010
Posts: 9 |
wav2sng to free them all. |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: wav2sng to free them all.
and it uses cyberbrain/algorithm oscillator digi |
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Stinsen
Registered: Feb 2012
Posts: 71 |
I must say I really love the concept of this tool (wish I had thought about it, sounded funny to implement :D). It is a bit like viruses modifying themselves to avoid detection...
As for instrument programming in general I hate and suck at it, even after 100+ SIDs and 10 years in GT it is all still trial and error (especially percussions). I couldn't do a kick and snare from scratch even if my life depended on it. :P
Huge respect to the sound wizards out there, you know who you are! <3 |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
My two cents: Ultimately it’s the right of the composer to protect their work or not at this level, and it would be best if people respected each other’s philosophies on this matter.
I agree that sid2sng is a useful tool for beginner SID composers and isn’t an inherently bad thing, but if someone wants to analyze sounds from a “protected” module, oscilloscope views, jsidplay2, and siddump exist as well. I personally learned SID sound design mostly by making and viewing oscilloscope views.
A better way to make SID more accessible to beginners would be to make a PC tracker with a less intimidating interface anyways. |
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2bt
Registered: Jun 2021
Posts: 9 |
Making things more accessible is what I wanted to do. I have been a non-contributing beneficiary of this scene for many years (thanks for all the music!!!) and want to give back.
I was thinking about writing a tracker for android, possibly with compatibility to GoatTracker since it's open source and many songs I love so much were made with it. I was envisioning how much it would suck to edit the tables on the phone and how things could perhaps be simplified, even if it meant loosing some of GoatTracker's power.
I was wondering what features were the most essential and what features could possibly dropped. sid2sng was kind of a by-product of this investigation.
Now that I have an activated account here, if there is an interest for such a tracker, I would love to hear what you all like most about GoatTracker and what things suck.
Also, what about a tool that checks if someone's instruments have been copied from other sids and tags the author as lamer? :) |
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Flotsam
Registered: Jan 2004
Posts: 81 |
Hail 2bt and Jason. This cat/mouse thing is like good old times with copy protection vs. crackers. :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Hilarious.
I guess everyone complaining that instruments shouldnt be "ripped" have also never used a preset on a synthesizer in their life either.
You are such hardcore instrument design wizzards, I applaude you!
I'm even worse than stinsen, I couldnt make ANY decent instrument from scratch even if my life depended on it.
I like browsing the example tunes from SDI and finding me some instruments.
If anyone ever made a sid2sdi converter i would be ripping instruments all day long.
There, i said it. And i dont give a rats ass if you think lesser of me because of that. |
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Chris Wemyss
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 12 |
To me, making instruments from scratch and tweaking them to fit the music is half the fun!! |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 445 |
Quote: Hilarious.
I guess everyone complaining that instruments shouldnt be "ripped" have also never used a preset on a synthesizer in their life either.
You are such hardcore instrument design wizzards, I applaude you!
I'm even worse than stinsen, I couldnt make ANY decent instrument from scratch even if my life depended on it.
I like browsing the example tunes from SDI and finding me some instruments.
If anyone ever made a sid2sdi converter i would be ripping instruments all day long.
There, i said it. And i dont give a rats ass if you think lesser of me because of that.
Hehe. I think there's a place for everything in SID music scene. Some people focus simply mainly on composing. Some people focus on producing heavily experimental fart sounds to make iAN complain :-)
I like to analyze some of the fart sound stuff in siddump and sometimes be "inspired" from what I find. Sometimes I rip single instruments as inspiration and build the rest sound set around it making it my own.
As I always put my source files to my music it seems nobody ever found out / or cared when I used instruments from others.
There was one tune where I took the whole "rythm section", bass and drums from a Jammer tune. It was also done via siddump and perhaps not 100% the same, but in that case I send him a wip version and asked him, if this would be okay for him.
In general I don't believe the concept of "stealing" regarding non-material things makes any sense in itself without being tied to the concept of "capitalism". Which is also a concept I think had its time and purpose in the development of mankind, but we can safely leave it behind and replace now :-) |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
Quote: Making things more accessible is what I wanted to do. I have been a non-contributing beneficiary of this scene for many years (thanks for all the music!!!) and want to give back.
I was thinking about writing a tracker for android, possibly with compatibility to GoatTracker since it's open source and many songs I love so much were made with it. I was envisioning how much it would suck to edit the tables on the phone and how things could perhaps be simplified, even if it meant loosing some of GoatTracker's power.
I was wondering what features were the most essential and what features could possibly dropped. sid2sng was kind of a by-product of this investigation.
Now that I have an activated account here, if there is an interest for such a tracker, I would love to hear what you all like most about GoatTracker and what things suck.
Also, what about a tool that checks if someone's instruments have been copied from other sids and tags the author as lamer? :)
I’ve actually been thinking up some ideas about how a SidTracker64-like table editor could be used to edit GT2 tables without any loss of functionality. It seems to be possible in concept, albeit with some complications. Your idea sounds promising, though I’d personally like to see a “simplified” tracker for non-mobile (that isn’t a memory-eater like Deflemask). |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 638 |
Quote: Hilarious.
I guess everyone complaining that instruments shouldnt be "ripped" have also never used a preset on a synthesizer in their life either.
You are such hardcore instrument design wizzards, I applaude you!
I'm even worse than stinsen, I couldnt make ANY decent instrument from scratch even if my life depended on it.
I like browsing the example tunes from SDI and finding me some instruments.
If anyone ever made a sid2sdi converter i would be ripping instruments all day long.
There, i said it. And i dont give a rats ass if you think lesser of me because of that.
Think lesser of you? Nah, mate. You're still my FunkDaddy <3
Also, what Mixer and Flotsam said :) |
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2bt
Registered: Jun 2021
Posts: 9 |
@acrouzet have you tried out Fake SID? Ignore the poor sid emulation and the missing export feature, I just wonder what people think about the usability of the interface, how the tables and pattern editing works.
SidTracker64 is only for tablets I think, so I can't just copy the interface from there. Also, SID-Wizard instruments don't share their tables (looks like it's the same with SidTracker64?), I really like that since it would make the interface a lot easier.
This thread is probably the wrong place to discuss all this. I am just very curious about what would be a nice interface for a phone. |
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acrouzet
Registered: May 2020
Posts: 80 |
Quote: @acrouzet have you tried out Fake SID? Ignore the poor sid emulation and the missing export feature, I just wonder what people think about the usability of the interface, how the tables and pattern editing works.
SidTracker64 is only for tablets I think, so I can't just copy the interface from there. Also, SID-Wizard instruments don't share their tables (looks like it's the same with SidTracker64?), I really like that since it would make the interface a lot easier.
This thread is probably the wrong place to discuss all this. I am just very curious about what would be a nice interface for a phone.
I haven't tried Fake SID, since I don't have an Android phone or an emulator. I'm honestly not the biggest fan of tracking on phones anyway. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
"good artists borrow, great artists steal"
(reportedly Picasso, cliché as fuck, but it ought to be said at least once in this discussion i think)
or
more personally: stolen masterpiece >>> original bullshit :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
As a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :)
These come to mind: Give a Try, Arkanoid +2, Master of the Lamps and perhaps Rimrunner +2D
No standardized formats there, which was the great thing about it. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
@chuinho just scroll upwards, I've already posted that quote.
Seriously, my view on freedom of Art is: Art is allowed to do anything, ESPECIALLY stealing :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2847 |
Quoting tlrAs a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :) All? :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quote: Quoting tlrAs a side note, there used to be the fun field of ripping music before HVSC had collected them all. :) All? :)
fair enough, most...many...some...a few? :) |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4598 |
What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1714 |
Quote: What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D
I guess code is protected by obfuscation in most cases already. |
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DeMOSic
Registered: Aug 2021
Posts: 126 |
Quote: What's next? Protecting gfx and code? :D
wouldnt be suprised if yes ;)
people will take the code and shove it into something that modifies the code (GlItChY!!!11!1!) so that you can only look at the demo and you cant disASSemble it because the code is so GlItChY!!!11!1! =) GoOd PrOtEcC because the angy sceners who are disASSembling the code of the thing that does it so that you cant disASSemble the demos so that you can esrever the proccess so that you can still disASSemble the code |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
The "what's next stuff" (protecting code from being disassembled, encrypting gfx <- doing buttugly gfx or using terribly flickering formats will help, though, to make ppl shun from even trying) of course ain't gonna happen, and hopefully most readers have an idea why ^^ Protection measures found in games against crackers in 2021 is fun to be found proof-of-concept-wise (and as such I somehow can smile about the silliness of GT Protect, just to get BTT) but not really worth the trouble unless you have shitloads of time. |
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Jason Page
Registered: Sep 2015
Posts: 87 |
> But I'll also remain a fanboy of Joe and Jason Page no matter different views on concepts.
Thank you, TheRyk. Likewise - no offence meant or taken.
I feel that maybe I've caused a bit of a stir here...!
Why did I write GT Protect?
1) I've already written a SID>GT and SID>CC ripper. Initially I was really excited when I'd finished it.. But then I didn't release it as I wondered if it would actually damage the scene. For example, those who have particular tricks that they use when entering. I've no clear examples here. But I felt that it could actually stop people wanting to write music, if they felt their secrets would be easily used or whatever. Am I wrong? Is there actually a clear definition of wrong here? I don't know. So, I'm not wanting to argue this. Everyone has opinions, and everyone is right - So the debate would just go on pointlessly forever (again, IHMO!). Either way, that was my decision. So, one reason I wrote GTProtect was simply to try to actually keep people writing cool SIDs, and to keep the mystery of how those who do fucking amazing things with SID still a little bit of a mystery! That makes it sound like I was doing it for some "For the good of the people / Make him a saint" reason...
2) The challenge. Someone said on another thread regarding sng2sid that there's bound to be a tool to project SIDs now.. Show me a ladder and i'll climb it ;-) It only took a few hours to knock up over a number of evenings. It's not rocket science. It was just a bit of fun code.
And Jammer & co are absolutely right though - when I wrote my ripper a few years ago, I walked away with *nothing* in terms of learning! Other than "he's a fucking genius for getting sounds out of a 1x tune that I couldn't ever manage at 8x.". I then just used the ripper for helping people get their sngs back who had lost the originals, as it had little other worth.
It's all optional. I'm not against people ripping stuff or learning or anything else.
Someone said "this is silly" as a comment. Yeah, it is.
Its all silly. It's just fun retro silly hobby stuff. As 2bt was kind enough to opensource the ripper, it make it incredibly easy for me to work out how to deceive it. And it would be very easy to revert it to an unprotected SID, just by looking at the 6502 changes.
I'm not on some kind of crusade here. I won't be updating it to keep one step ahead or anything.
Cheers
Jason |
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Adam
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 321 |
Quoting Stainless SteelHilarious.
I guess everyone complaining that instruments shouldnt be "ripped" have also never used a preset on a synthesizer in their life either.
You are such hardcore instrument design wizzards, I applaude you!
lol. That's what I was wondering also. This entire thread is too weird for me. Are there people out there ripping instruments to justify the existence of this tool? [edit: i see.. a challenge, makes sense]. I've got no issue with people grabbing instruments from anywhere, as long as people aren't ripping music data. |
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F7sus4
Registered: Apr 2013
Posts: 112 |
Quoting JammerI'm more than happy to share my sng but.. well... good luck with using any of my fucked up instruments as they usually also require appropriate interaction between channels :D
↑ This!
Many instruments rely on very specific interactions (be it filter-work, pitch-based modulations or waveform overlapping), so they often provide very little use out of context (music or pattern-wise) in which they were created. While writing more intricate stuff, it's usually required to strategize all SID resources "as a whole".
It also raises a question, why would anyone want to mimic Jammer or Linus (or whoever is their personal hero) and not make their own trademark sound instead. The best insights usually come from experiments, and there are tons of topics on the forums sharing knowledge on SID behavior/quirks.
Quoting AdamAre there people out there ripping instruments to justify the existence of this tool?
Some people go as far as observing SID registers using C64 65XE Debugger V0.64.56.8 only to later ask about them in private. ;-)
I'm fine with that. In the end, there's no ultimate protection if someone's desperate determined enough. ;-) |
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spider-j
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 445 |
Quote:Some people go as far as observing SID registers
I even go as far as looking at some of my own stuff in siddump when after some fiddeling I found some interesting sound combinations :-) Because it is by far the most accurate way to understand what is actually happening when you look at it frame by frame. |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2076 |
Quote:as long as people aren't ripping music data
LOL of course the patterns are also recreated when using SID2SNG... that's what an SNG file is about: patterns (music data), .INStruments, tables...
But agreed, using so. elses notes without clearly declaring it a remix/remake ensures that you'll definetely go to hell, reminds me of famous old forum freds such as The sid stealing continues! ... btw for gfxians who also want drama, there is Say goodbye to SID stealing, VIC STEALING IS BORN! :-( |
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mutetus
Registered: Dec 2020
Posts: 10 |
Ripping my sids ends right here. For I uploaded them also in Goattracker sng format, enjoy. |
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 453 |
too late for me, i already analyzed the shit out of Mutetus discography :) (still, it would be extremely cool for the scene if more people ripped your sids - or, in the New Era, downloaded the sources - to see how to write music, going as far as to take whole chord progressions and build virtually anything new upon them XD)
but there's an inspiration to do exactly the same, minus the extremely cool for the scene part. as soon as i find the files... |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1153 |
Most funny topic in ages :)
The battle has ended.
The heroes swore they would give their best SID instruments to charity.
When the third magically userfriendly tracker is found, it's power will change the world. |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Hahaham I also love this thread! :D What a joy, a bit of *passion* again, keeping the gray November weather at bay.
I remember the "in-source" friendly amiga .mod's and DOS .xm's / s3m's comments: "Thank you scener x of group y for instrumenta 0a 0b & 0c". Everything regarding tracking, not just borrowing samples, was co-taught by looking into the songs.
On the topics of instruments what can one say..
Well well, it's probably just around the corner with some enthusiast starting to release eh 'instrument disks'. Like "Best Of Jammer" "Linus Classics Vol XII" "Stinsen Moments" etc :D |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Quote: too late for me, i already analyzed the shit out of Mutetus discography :) (still, it would be extremely cool for the scene if more people ripped your sids - or, in the New Era, downloaded the sources - to see how to write music, going as far as to take whole chord progressions and build virtually anything new upon them XD)
but there's an inspiration to do exactly the same, minus the extremely cool for the scene part. as soon as i find the files...
Sorry I quoted the wrong quote. What I meant was: |
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Splunkh!
Registered: Apr 2021
Posts: 31 |
Quote: Ripping my sids ends right here. For I uploaded them also in Goattracker sng format, enjoy.
Hey thank you for uploading/sharing all your sng's!!
(It seems that the only two missing sng's in your discography was Mutetus Theme and Welcome to the Future )
Your songs are truly outstanding! Almost my entire nightshift has been spent with https://deepsid.chordian.net/?file=/MUSICIANS/M/Mutetus :D |
