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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Handle id #4504 : Euratom
Could anyone enlighten us if Euratom really was just one single person.
I believe it was actually a group of 3 people;
Harold (Coder), Gordon (Graphician) & Extermer (Musician). |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
From a scrolltext in the last part of Born to Win:
THIS DEMO WAS WRITTEN IN 1987 BY EURATOM ! CREDITS ARE: PROGRAMMING AND CODING BY HAROLD. THANX TO GADDAFI FOR THIS SUPER-ROUTINES. ALSO THANX TO EXTERMER FOR THE SCRIPT AND THE SOUNDS ! LINKING, PACKING AND OTHER GRAFIX BY GORDON ! THANX TO ALL WHO HELPED US. THIS DEMO IS A TRADEMARK OF EURATOM AND MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED ! EURATOM IS STILL SEARCHING FOR COOL MEMBERS, SO IF YOU THINK YOU'RE GOOD THEN CONTACT US VERY SOON ! IF YOU NEED HARDWARE CONTACT US, TOO ! WE CAN GET EVERYTHING YOU NEED, JUST PAY A FAIR PRICE ! AT THE SAME TIME OUR GROUP WELD TOGETHER WE JOINED THE LEGENDARY NEW EDITION ! WE HOPE WE ARE NOW REAL MEMBERS OF NEW EDITION ! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
well, you answered your own question. 8) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
I believe that Markus Müller (aka Hayes and Superbrain) was a member of Euratom too. I remember him because I loved a couple of tunes he did. Actually I thought the music was done by someone called Euratom :D |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Hayes did a couple of really good tunes. Here on CSDb he's listed as a member of the group <group id=1118> from Hungary. That doesn't seem right either... |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Euratom was for sure no single person, but it could be the Hungarian and the Germans were different groups.
this is their homepage: http://www.euratom.org/ (hehe)
the information in HVSC Markus Müller dir is sometimes a bit confusing as the group Sidbusters is named as composer for his tunes. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Euratom was for sure no single person, but it could be the Hungarian and the Germans were different groups.
this is their homepage: http://www.euratom.org/ (hehe)
the information in HVSC Markus Müller dir is sometimes a bit confusing as the group Sidbusters is named as composer for his tunes.
Yes, but Markus was the only composer in "Sidbusters", and sometimes the demos credited only "Sidbusters" and we try to preserve how it was credited in the demo. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Ok, so there were 2 different groups called Euratom then. The first one was founded in 1987, a subgroup to New Edition, The Sharks and other groups. The members were from Elmshorn Germany & they seem to have shared the same PLK.
Incorrectly added to CSDb as a scener.
The second one was Hungarian & founded when, 1989? |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
the only thing I know, its members Hayes and Burton (the coder of Markus Müller' music routine), left Euratom (probably died then) in August 1989 and joined Quality
Also Markus Müller probably wasnt Hungarian, unlike Burton. Maybe a German - Hungarian friendship just like Chromance. ;) |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Ok. I'll create a new Euratom group & its members & will try to sort this mess out by investigating all their releases & read the scrollers... might take some time. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Fixed most of it & I started to look for more demos from Euratom in my collection.
I found one called The Rebirth.
In the memory I found this address:
PLK 054032 A
2200 Elmshorn 1
West-Germany
Tel. 04123/4675
Which is the exact same contact-info as written in their first demo Born to Win.
So what you say?
Well, in the scroller they write "THE EURATOM BOYS ARE NAMED HAYES, CLAPHAM, BURTON, OMEGA, SHAWN, MASTER OF ROM, TARZAN AND NEW ORDER !"
So Hayes & Burton were members of the original German Euratom & not some Hungarian group using the same name.
The entry with the Hungarian group Euratom must have been a misunderstanding so I've removed it. |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Well done!!! |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Btw I think Hayes did the music for Gamma Cracking Service's demo called Absolute....
I remember being quite fond of the music. Think it was composed in soundmonitor.
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
That seems to be correct since he was a member of GCF under the handle Superbrain. Many of the old GCF-members are listed in The Rebirth/Euratom... Further investigation needed, it seems like GCF joined Euratom sometime in 1988/89. The puzzle is growing, the amount of pieces to fit are increasing. It will be a long day tomorrow :) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I loved Superbrain's music from Future City II and the GCF intro on To Be On Top. This guy was outstanding and his later compositions were far from being that good, e.g. Mechanicus.. bwark!
Zyron: Cool to see you are an investigating journalist in the pirate underground. 8) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
I think superbrain did some great tunes for Euratom - especially for The Cat demo... or whatever it was called...
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
@Rough: I've done a great deal of investigating & correcting here on CSDb :)
@DRAX: All the tunes from The Cat are classic masterpieces. Amazing melodies. |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Wonder what happened to Markus Müller... I think I was in contact with him some years ago but lost contact... Would be nice to hear some music from him again ;) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Did you btw check out the #1 tune in the from "1-8 Music" which sounds so much like the music on the good old Papillion intro. I always doubted that 20cc did that tune. But well Edwin confirmed that he did the tune. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
It's definately the same tune as used in the Papillons-intro. I too have always been a bit sceptical that it should've been composed by Edwin, doesn't sound like him. But, since he's confirmed it to be his I see no reason to doubt it (and it's not possible to ask him anymore unfortunately, RIP). The person who compiled this disk must have made a mistake including that tune... |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Did you btw check out the #1 tune in the from "1-8 Music" which sounds so much like the music on the good old Papillion intro. I always doubted that 20cc did that tune. But well Edwin confirmed that he did the tune.
Yes, I checked this yesterday and also noticed it's the same tune as: /20CC/van_Santen_Edwin/Vlindertjes.sid
I was in contact with Edwin when he said what's in STIL:
"In a demo by Edwin van Santen, which he released about two years after the tune was made popular in the Papillion's crack intro, he states that he in fact composed the music. This demo contained a new version of the tune (/20CC/van_Santen_Edwin/Vlindertjes_v2.sid). He explains how he had made the music two years earlier on some composer like Soundmonitor or something similar. While at a copyparty, someone stole his music disk which had the tune on it. This was his only copy of the tune. About two months later, the tune appeared on a Papillions' intro and no credit was given to van Santen."
I was in contact with Markus Müller a couple of years ago, but I'll try to track down Markus Müller again to let him confirm if he did any of Song #1-8.
Strange though that this tune would be EvS' only Soundmonitor tune... |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
It has always bothered me that parts of it sound so much like You Keep Me Hangin' On by Kim Wilde. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: It has always bothered me that parts of it sound so much like You Keep Me Hangin' On by Kim Wilde.
Funny you say that... :)
The STIL said before it was a cover of Kim Wilde.
But I was the one who removed it, as I don't see it as a cover of it. Might be some similarities, but I don't think it's that much... Please sing the lyrics to the SID and send me a MP3... ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
Quote:Please sing the lyrics to the SID and send me a MP3... ;)
me too! :) |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Hehehe... ye right ;) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Damn, I actually thought it was a Kim Wilde song ;) ... I think the bassline sounds pretty like something Markus Müller would make but could of course also be the kind of bassline Edwin would make... No matter what I would have wished I did the song :D |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
I talked to Markus, and he says he did the tune... :)
Stay tuned for more info... |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Damn, I am clever ;) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Quote: Funny you say that... :)
The STIL said before it was a cover of Kim Wilde.
But I was the one who removed it, as I don't see it as a cover of it. Might be some similarities, but I don't think it's that much... Please sing the lyrics to the SID and send me a MP3... ;)
Ok, fast forward the song to 0:18 and when the arpeggios set in, sing along, everybody:
Set me free why don't you babe
get out of my life why don't you babe
'cause you don't really love me
you just keep me hanging on
That just fits exactly, both melody wise and rhythm wise - and IMHO would justify a STIL entry. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Ok, fast forward the song to 0:18 and when the arpeggios set in, sing along, everybody:
Set me free why don't you babe
get out of my life why don't you babe
'cause you don't really love me
you just keep me hanging on
That just fits exactly, both melody wise and rhythm wise - and IMHO would justify a STIL entry.
It fits a bit, yes... maybe if you send an mp3 when you're singing it? Put it online.
Groepaz is also interested in it.
Oh, we won't spread it, and we won't make fun of you! ;)
Markus says: "Definitely i was inspired by Kim Wilde's mid and late 80s style (and i still like her music today)..." |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
I wonder why EvS named his version of it to Vlindertjes & why he stated he had done the original if it was actually made by Superbrain... I got a weird feeling about this so I loaded up Vlindertjes to read the scroller, this is what he wrote:
HMMM I GOT THE FEELING THIS TUNE SOUNDS FAMILLIAR!! YEAH, IT WAS IN THE PAPPILION INTRO A FEW YEARS AGO!!! WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN THAT TO YOU!! TWO YEARS AGO, ON THE VENLO MEETING , SOMEONE STOLE MY 'SOUNDMONITOR' DISK, WITH THIS (MY!) TUNE ON IT!!! A FEW WEEKS AFTER THAT, I FOUND THE TUNE (SOME SOLO'S LEFT OUT, AND A TRANSPOSE DOWNWARDS) IN THE PAPILLION INTRO!! AND NOW, AFTER MORE THEN 2 YEARS, I FOUND A SCRATCHED VERSION OF THE SOUNDMON VERSION (THE ORIGINAL!) ON AN OLD WORK DISK!!! AND THEN I THOUGHT, WELL... I THINK THE TIME IS RIGHT NOW TO COME UP WITH THE REAL STORY , AND RELEASE THE TUNE MYSELF!! AND HERE IT IS.... A BIT MODIFIED, AND PUT IN THE ONE AND ONLY 20CC SID-PLAYER (YYAAAH!!) AND I MUST ADMIT, THAT AFTER ALL THAT AFTER ALL THAT TIME, IT STILL SOUNDS COOL
I HOPE I MADE EVERYTHING CLEAR NOW, AND THAT'S WHERE THIS TEXT ENDS...... BYE
In other words there should be more Soundmonitor tunes made by Edwin, probably composed when he called himself The Silicon Expert. |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
This is damn weird... To be honest, sorry Edwin, I don't believe you, this just sounds too much like Superbrain... If I am wrong in my claim, please forgive me Edwin. I don't know why I doubt this. I just do! ... Maybe this comment is a bit inappropriate but I just have to say what I mean and I don't have any hard evidence... I just wonder why Edwin didn't come forth with this information before. He was a member of the scene and most probably seen the Papillion intro. Besides the story about the tune getting stolen sounds pretty weird, especially when Markus confirms that he did it and considering the amount of soundmonitor tunes that Markus did. Please Markus send us some evidence or maybe some Papillion members want to enlighten us a bit ;) |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: I wonder why EvS named his version of it to Vlindertjes & why he stated he had done the original if it was actually made by Superbrain... I got a weird feeling about this so I loaded up Vlindertjes to read the scroller, this is what he wrote:
HMMM I GOT THE FEELING THIS TUNE SOUNDS FAMILLIAR!! YEAH, IT WAS IN THE PAPPILION INTRO A FEW YEARS AGO!!! WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN THAT TO YOU!! TWO YEARS AGO, ON THE VENLO MEETING , SOMEONE STOLE MY 'SOUNDMONITOR' DISK, WITH THIS (MY!) TUNE ON IT!!! A FEW WEEKS AFTER THAT, I FOUND THE TUNE (SOME SOLO'S LEFT OUT, AND A TRANSPOSE DOWNWARDS) IN THE PAPILLION INTRO!! AND NOW, AFTER MORE THEN 2 YEARS, I FOUND A SCRATCHED VERSION OF THE SOUNDMON VERSION (THE ORIGINAL!) ON AN OLD WORK DISK!!! AND THEN I THOUGHT, WELL... I THINK THE TIME IS RIGHT NOW TO COME UP WITH THE REAL STORY , AND RELEASE THE TUNE MYSELF!! AND HERE IT IS.... A BIT MODIFIED, AND PUT IN THE ONE AND ONLY 20CC SID-PLAYER (YYAAAH!!) AND I MUST ADMIT, THAT AFTER ALL THAT AFTER ALL THAT TIME, IT STILL SOUNDS COOL
I HOPE I MADE EVERYTHING CLEAR NOW, AND THAT'S WHERE THIS TEXT ENDS...... BYE
In other words there should be more Soundmonitor tunes made by Edwin, probably composed when he called himself The Silicon Expert.
Vlindertjes is the dutch name for "Papillion" and he named the tune after those he believed stole it. :)
Still this tune could be done by Markus, and Edwin made a similair tune, and when EvS heard Markus' tune in a Papillion intro he thought it was his but "some solo's left out, and a tranpose downwards". Maybe because it wasn't the same tune.
Maybe Edwin never lost his disk, as he found the tune when he unscratched the disk. Maybe he just thought he lost it, as someone made a similair tune?
(This is just speculations, though) |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
Btw I can't find Papillion in csdb |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Btw I can't find Papillion in csdb
The Papillons Inc. |
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DRAX
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 224 |
hehe, misspelled it...Thought it was Papillion :D
Thomas
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
The Snollipaps! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Quote: It fits a bit, yes... maybe if you send an mp3 when you're singing it? Put it online.
Groepaz is also interested in it.
Oh, we won't spread it, and we won't make fun of you! ;)
Markus says: "Definitely i was inspired by Kim Wilde's mid and late 80s style (and i still like her music today)..."
http://www.hvsc.c64.org/Private/Vlindertjes.ogg (~600 KB)
You promised you don't make fun of me, mkay? ;-)
And DON'T SPREAD!!!!!!!!!! :D |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: http://www.hvsc.c64.org/Private/Vlindertjes.ogg (~600 KB)
You promised you don't make fun of me, mkay? ;-)
And DON'T SPREAD!!!!!!!!!! :D
Wow. You're a very brave man.
Stupid enough to trust us not to throw this in your face for the next 30 years, but brave.
Completely out of tune, but brave.
So yeh, you shouldn't have done this. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
\o/ |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
Quote:
http://www.hvsc.c64.org/Private/Vlindertjes.ogg
omg. please do that live, while wearing the latest kim wilde fashion. =) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
TDJ, I was already shivering in expectance of your judgement. And it hit me real hard, guess I'll never be a popstar now. :-( |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: http://www.hvsc.c64.org/Private/Vlindertjes.ogg (~600 KB)
You promised you don't make fun of me, mkay? ;-)
And DON'T SPREAD!!!!!!!!!! :D
You are da man!! This really made my day. My headache went away from all the laughing. (Laughing is good for the health!) OK, I can go for "inspired by" but I wouldn't say it's a cover. (Even Markus says he was inspired by Kim). Now we just need to figure out who really made the tune.
Thanks again for this! I owe you a 33cl Orange Fanta next time we meet. ;)
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: TDJ, I was already shivering in expectance of your judgement. And it hit me real hard, guess I'll never be a popstar now. :-(
Hey, I'd buy your record! Music is supposed to make you happy, and I haven't laughed this much in ages! ;) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
It was NOT MEANT FOR LAUGHING, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!! |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: TDJ, I was already shivering in expectance of your judgement. And it hit me real hard, guess I'll never be a popstar now. :-(
Comfort yourself with the fact that somewhere out there are mp3s with me 'rapping' .. and it ain't pretty! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Phew... *wipes forehead*
So you were in just for the girls, just like me? :) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: Comfort yourself with the fact that somewhere out there are mp3s with me 'rapping' .. and it ain't pretty!
Hey! Where can I get a hold of these mp3s?!
---
8Bit Mayhem - The Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Phew... *wipes forehead*
So you were in just for the girls, just like me? :)
Sex & drugs & rock 'n roll all the way baby! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11147 |
if you really dare, grab the RCC2005 karaoke package, featuring me, countzero, deekay, wanja, wolf and some more singing along various sid tunes. WARNING! THIS MAY BE CONSIDERED A LETHAL DOSAGE OF DETUNE!
http://www.pokefinder.org/dl.php?file=Kann_Kein_Karaoke.zip |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: |
Yeah, now they're all stepping forward, hooray! Anyone else who wants to commit social scene-suizide? ;-) |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: if you really dare, grab the RCC2005 karaoke package, featuring me, countzero, deekay, wanja, wolf and some more singing along various sid tunes. WARNING! THIS MAY BE CONSIDERED A LETHAL DOSAGE OF DETUNE!
http://www.pokefinder.org/dl.php?file=Kann_Kein_Karaoke.zip
I'm speechless! A lot of undiscovered talents collected on one CD! What else could you wish for on a monday evening? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
While reading about "the cat" demo and the musics from this demo (classics, i love them) i remembered something that had allways disturbed me about one of the musics in that particular demo.
Its about the tune from the last part with the cat animation, im pretty sure i heard the music somewhere before
i saw the demo. If i remember correctly i heard it in some advertisement for some cigarette brand back in the 80ies.
Can anyone shed some light on this if im just having hallucinations or if this tune really is a cover.
PS: not that it would be a bad thing, its just something ive been wondering about since ive first heard the tune in the demo. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: While reading about "the cat" demo and the musics from this demo (classics, i love them) i remembered something that had allways disturbed me about one of the musics in that particular demo.
Its about the tune from the last part with the cat animation, im pretty sure i heard the music somewhere before
i saw the demo. If i remember correctly i heard it in some advertisement for some cigarette brand back in the 80ies.
Can anyone shed some light on this if im just having hallucinations or if this tune really is a cover.
PS: not that it would be a bad thing, its just something ive been wondering about since ive first heard the tune in the demo.
I'll ask Markus... :) |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: While reading about "the cat" demo and the musics from this demo (classics, i love them) i remembered something that had allways disturbed me about one of the musics in that particular demo.
Its about the tune from the last part with the cat animation, im pretty sure i heard the music somewhere before
i saw the demo. If i remember correctly i heard it in some advertisement for some cigarette brand back in the 80ies.
Can anyone shed some light on this if im just having hallucinations or if this tune really is a cover.
PS: not that it would be a bad thing, its just something ive been wondering about since ive first heard the tune in the demo.
[From Markus}
the guy is pretty right ;-)
The music for the cat animation was heavily inspired by an Bacardi commercial song from the mid 80's :-)
I hope, this will solve all the headaches ;-)
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
STIL-entry! STIL-entry! :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I knew it was some advertisement theme :-) thanks for the information. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: STIL-entry! STIL-entry! :)
Be still. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
While we're at it, im having similar thoughts about another tune in the beforementioned demo. Its a tune called "Cinema" (thats the name it has in HVSC) could it be this one covers something aswell ? im pretty sure ive heard the theme somewhere before, i just cant remember where.
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
btw: i just have to say how much i love that old GFC intro tune. Gives me chills listening to it after so many years. Oh sweet childhood memories.
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: Yes, I checked this yesterday and also noticed it's the same tune as: /20CC/van_Santen_Edwin/Vlindertjes.sid
I was in contact with Edwin when he said what's in STIL:
"In a demo by Edwin van Santen, which he released about two years after the tune was made popular in the Papillion's crack intro, he states that he in fact composed the music. This demo contained a new version of the tune (/20CC/van_Santen_Edwin/Vlindertjes_v2.sid). He explains how he had made the music two years earlier on some composer like Soundmonitor or something similar. While at a copyparty, someone stole his music disk which had the tune on it. This was his only copy of the tune. About two months later, the tune appeared on a Papillions' intro and no credit was given to van Santen."
I was in contact with Markus Müller a couple of years ago, but I'll try to track down Markus Müller again to let him confirm if he did any of Song #1-8.
Strange though that this tune would be EvS' only Soundmonitor tune...
Falco Paul mentions this tune in the VN#47 EvS memorial requiem. It seems both enjoyed the Kim Wilde song and both covered it in their own way. Falco is writing they wanted to include Edwin's version to the PCW show demo they'd made.
I guess the one in Papillon's intro was the Markus (the copycat) version, where Edwin might have covered the song in the earliest 20CC player. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Falco Paul mentions this tune in the VN#47 EvS memorial requiem. It seems both enjoyed the Kim Wilde song and both covered it in their own way. Falco is writing they wanted to include Edwin's version to the PCW show demo they'd made.
I guess the one in Papillon's intro was the Markus (the copycat) version, where Edwin might have covered the song in the earliest 20CC player.
Hein, EvS already stated he made the first version in Soundmonitor. AND EvS told me it was no cover of Kim Wilde, it was totally his own composition.
What he also wrote is that the version in Papillions intro is not exactly the same, it's transposed, and missing some of the solos.
This _probably_ means that the version in Papillions intro infact is Markus. If Markus re-made EvS original or this infact is the original is hard to know.
And we don't know how EvS' version sounds. Might be very similair, but might also be just a bit similair.
Question would be if Markus heard EvS tune in the first place, but he don't recall hearing that.
Sadly we can only guess how it all happened.
Markus doesn't have his old disks anymore.
EvS still had his disks, but I don't think we can get them anymore. :( |
