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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
New PC paintprogram for c64
Some of you might already know this, but i've been working on a paintprogram of my own for some time now.
It's based on Paint.Net (http://www.eecs.wsu.edu/paint.net/ (check it out, it's great (and free!))), so it has layer functionality, effects, all default tools, antialiasing, unlimited history and more fancy stuff you'll only find in that program and photoshop but my adaptation also has filters to convert to c64 formats (FLI, koala and single color bitmap but also the option to convert to sprites and more).
On top of that you can paint and draw in single and multicolour mode with all 16 c64 colours and a transparent colour.
Here's a screenshot of what it currently looks like and shows some of the features:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/timanthes001.jpg
It currently doesn't export anything, because i'm not quite sure how to implement that yet, so any suggestions are welcome :)
For the moment i'd like to get some feedback and in about a month (I have to put together a document first on how to use it) I'll be putting out a first alpha version which people can test (this requires windows 2000/server 2003/XP and the .Net framework 1.1)
Cheers,
Mirage/Focus |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
great, all my efforts on P1 got useless in 1 second... |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1633 |
Sounds great. I hope you'll spend some time on the exporting features, beacause then it would be a really super useful deluxe program. Dunno what kind of suggestions you want, but the most important is of course to be able to export chunks of binary data suitable for direct "insertion" in c64 memory. Personally I don't really need anything else than that.
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 887 |
Quote: Sounds great. I hope you'll spend some time on the exporting features, beacause then it would be a really super useful deluxe program. Dunno what kind of suggestions you want, but the most important is of course to be able to export chunks of binary data suitable for direct "insertion" in c64 memory. Personally I don't really need anything else than that.
i agree here :)
nothing is more annoying than getting some .kla or .fli of whatever painter-format out. what we want is the raw data, so it's easy to include in code... |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
great, all my efforts as a C64 graphician got useless in 1 second...
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Sander
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 493 |
Quote: great, all my efforts as a C64 graphician got useless in 1 second...
Finally - i hereby retire! |
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 77 |
Quote: Finally - i hereby retire!
I hear TDJ screaming: NOOOOOO....! |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I hear TDJ screaming: NOOOOOO....!
Why? It's not like Sander is flooding the scene with pictures anyway .. I'll just ask JSL (Roland) to fill in for him. |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
Quote: I hear TDJ screaming: NOOOOOO....!
Why? It's not like tdj needs graphics for his forum posts anyway |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Why? It's not like tdj needs graphics for his forum posts anyway
Well, I could really use a picture of an extended middlefinger right now. |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: Well, I could really use a picture of an extended middlefinger right now.
I always knew you were into body modification!
Regards,
JSL
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1576 |
By the way. I have seen and tried a lot of those wunderprograms for pixelling on PC. Still, even so buggy as it is, I find Oswald's the most usable crossplatform pixel-editor. Once he finishes P1 and charm away the nastiest bugs, I think it will be the most/least a _pixel graphician_ will ever need for painting on PC.
Well, I really appreciate Mirage's effort, but according to the screenshot, this is another piece of retouch-o-mat for helping out those who know little about pixelling but wanna do radical magic.
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Tim
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 77 |
Imho both programs have their target audience. One for beginners and the other for the advanced. The more we have to choose from the better and from what I saw it looks complicated but so was amica paint when I started.
And ofcourse I am very glad to see something from Lars again :) |
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Krill
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2856 |
Amazing stuff.
Mirage: it would be great to have some plug-in/exporter api so that people can integrate their own format support in your program.. :D |
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vigo
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 13 |
i wish it was not a .net stuff :( |
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drake
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 207 |
so, finally people pixel on pc to get a commodore picture. why not? coding on pc, music on pc and graphics on pc.
long live the c64 scene! |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: so, finally people pixel on pc to get a commodore picture. why not? coding on pc, music on pc and graphics on pc.
long live the c64 scene!
I can read some sarcasm in your post.
Keep in mind that in the end it has to run on a real C64.
The PC is only used as a tool.
R.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
LOL!
Well Drake,many people seem to have outgrown the charm of C64 pixelling.
To me,it seems like digging a grave using dynamite. ;)
There will hopefully always be a C64 program required to do the finishing touch. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Too make things even funnier, here's a little extra info on the paint program:
it supports pixeling with a wacom tablet
i know i would certainly prefer painting with a digital brush over clicking in 8 directions with a joystick any day :)
But fair enough, the moment i can plug my wacom tablet into a c64 i would certainly give that a try |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
krill: very good point... plugins/filters can be compiled as dynamic libraries (this is a feature of the original program) and should have access to public variables such as bitmaplayers/GDI+ surfaces/scanline buffers/charmem (8 instances) and colourmem :)
(Frantic, WVL: this should also answer your questions... I was thinking about exporting .fli or .kla but for that i need binary data so why not add functionality to export those binary chunks aswell :) |
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Oxbow
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 50 |
tools can be fine, but i'll never trade my stick for a mouse! |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Lars: cool to see this tool finally. Awesome stuff. I've seen much work done in it and it certainly will help those artists out there.
Regarding if done on C64 or PC. As long as the finished product works 100% on the real thing, I don't care where it is done. I prefer C64 and people watching my productions on a real C64. Emulators and PC should be regarded as tools only. This is an age-old debate which will never end - why does it keep coming up? Because people have true C64 spirit! Hail to you all!
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Jailbird/not Krill:
You were right in calling it a retouch-o-mat before, but i've been implementing realtime colorclashes and all that in the last 4 nights... I hope the next couple of screenshots will take your doubts away :)
Every layer you create will have a set of restrictions like this:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/layeroptions.jpg
When I say layer, this means you will have the ability to create sprite layers with their own restrictions aswell (or stuff like singlecolor bitmaps interlaced with multicolor bitmaps), which will go in front or behind other (bitmap) layers:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/layers.jpg
I've already implemented several restriction modes, like '3 colors per char, don't paint over stuff i've already got in my picture'... which looks something like this:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash01.jpg (original beautiful koala picture by Sander/Focus)
You'll notice that colorclashes are indicated as bright red colors... I'll come back to this later...
You'll also notice that i was saying '3 colors per char' instead of '4 colors per char'... This is because every character can also contain transparent pixels that will show the background or the layer below instead.
Another restriction mode is the '3 colors per char, remove colors that are least used', which looks like this:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash02.jpg
With all these colorclashes in place it's easy to lose track of what the picture was originally supposed to look like, so you can always switch off your restrictions to see what the picture looks like without the clashes (and because the program does all the converting in realtime you can then, after you've checked the original bitmap, switch back to restricted mode to correct your errors):
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash03.jpg
Going back to your original restriction settings, you can easily get rid of any clashes and make the picture look like this (this took me no more than a minute to complete):
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash04.jpg
Now comes the beauty of all this... because the program does it's converting in realtime you'll get your results back immediately...
This is what a character looked like before (bright red denoting the colorclash which needed to be fixed):
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash05.jpg
Once I removed (i.e. replaced with gray pixels) the 2 orange pixels that were not really relevant in this character i automatically ended up with this:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash06.jpg
An other option was to replace all the bright red colors with a color that was already present in the character... All up to you
-------------------------------------
Another restriction mode I've implemented just before I wrote this post is the FLI-8-lines-per-char mode
Without going in too much detail now, here is a screenshot of me selecting a piece of the picture and copying it around:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/clash07.jpg (original pancake mix/overlayrastertje FLI picture by Hein/Focus+Onslaught+Vision,etc.)
(I apologise for the number of men in that picture, I could have easily picked the woman or the dragon to copy)
While I'm moving the selected piece of bitmap around I can see the colorclashes appear and disappear (i can select anything and it's not restricted to any 8x8 grid)... All in realtime and still running at normal speeds, ofcourse...
I've also tried painting with anti-aliased brushes, using massive shapetools with different anti-aliasing settings and dithering settings... little problems with colorclashes whatsoever :)
This is all still work in progress so you might notice some weird stuff going on in the screenshots (i.e. the layers in the first screenshots are in reverse order when you compare them to photoshop layers, etc) but at least it rarely ever crashes ;)
So there... hope you're atleast a little bit excited ;) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1633 |
Go on! :) |
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hollowman
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 474 |
yes, please do! |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1995 |
@Mirage: I am impressed!!!, please go on and make it stable and usable so that it doesn't end up in yet another unfinished product (but maybe it already is, I havn't tried it!). =) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Go Mirage GO!!
Looking forward to nov. 18th :) |
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MRT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 149 |
Quote: By the way. I have seen and tried a lot of those wunderprograms for pixelling on PC. Still, even so buggy as it is, I find Oswald's the most usable crossplatform pixel-editor. Once he finishes P1 and charm away the nastiest bugs, I think it will be the most/least a _pixel graphician_ will ever need for painting on PC.
Well, I really appreciate Mirage's effort, but according to the screenshot, this is another piece of retouch-o-mat for helping out those who know little about pixelling but wanna do radical magic.
COOOOLLLLL, now I don't need a graphics artist anymore... ;-) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: COOOOLLLLL, now I don't need a graphics artist anymore... ;-)
No no no!
It has to be VERY clear that although Mirage's program rocks it can NOT be used in the making of a real demo. All demo graphics should be drawn on a real c64, attached to a real monitor, with a real arcade joystick. Otherwise your demo will suck ;-) |
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T.M.R
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: |
Shit, that explains a lot... i've always used a Zipstik rather than an arcade! =-( |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
@Cruzer:
Might not make it before november 18th, but don't worry, it's not like i'm making a 'meet crest' demo... this will definately be releaseworthy before the end of the year, probably much sooner :)
Hein has been and still is an extremely helpful alpha-tester and i've been able to straighten out all of the crash-bugs (Hell, I wouldn't have even dared resizing/rotating a palettized koala-picture to a non-8x8-aligned picture so the character data is completely out of sync, but some people try anything to make the program crash... long story short, i didn't know people who didn't code the program could make it crash so easily, so that took more time for me to sort out then i originally thought :/)
Btw. loved the yktr stuff, more sequels, please :)
@Frantic/WVL/hollowman/Krill/other coders:
Thanks for the feedback :) I'm looking into exporting stuff right now... i've only been programming for c64 on pc for the last 2 months or so, so i don't know what kind of binary/ASM chunks you would like me to export...
I was thinking something like this:
1. a file with picture-information (size, width, height, format (hires/lowres/indexed chars/sprite data/etc.)
2. a file with bitmap data in standard assembly language (i.e. bitmapdata .byte $00, $01, $10, $11, etc)
3. one or more files with charhigh/charlow/colorram data in the same standard assembly byte format
4. optional data like spritecolours, etc.
I'm pretty sure i'm not up to date with most compilers/linkers on pc. I'm pretty comfortable with using TASS/TSLINK/PRGBin2ByteReader/PET2ASC/c1541, but some of you might be using different tools/parameters... Should I also export pure binary-byte chunks for easier linking?
Also, I was thinking of not including any start-addresses for any of the datablocks, but maybe there are good reasons to do this after all (i'm thinking relative position sequential loaders, krill? :))
All feedback is very welcome :)
I will ofcourse also start to implement exporting to .prg .koa .fli and .d64 formats (with viewers for the exported picture on that same .d64), but for now i just want to finish basic chunk-exporting first...
By heart, i'm a pixel-artist... All this layered bitmap-surface-GDI-stuff can make me somewhat sick at times, but the sooner I get this stuff out of the way the sooner i'll be on my mery way of pixeling (hopely lovely) stuff again :)
Cheers,
Lars. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1633 |
Both pure binay chunks and assembler data (".byte $xx, $xx") are useful, but pure binary is the most important actually (to me at least). For example you can run it trough a packer and such things...
...and a flag for load-adress on/off is surely useful for different configs and ways of development. It's a hassle when you have to add or remove this from all your files. Also, loadadresses is something that beginners might not think about, which may cause unexpected problems later when trying to load the pictures. So another reason to have this may so people are confronted with this choice when they are exporting, and are thus aware of it. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
maybe I shouldnt feel angry and cheated about this paintproggy but I do. For me a year of work got wasted.
Taking an existing free top-notch paintproggy source and adding a few filters ... well this is really easy and cool. My way wasnt as straight with P1, I had to do everything myself.
When comparing my and Mirage's editor noone will give a shit about the different amount of works they needed. I have wasted 20 times as much energy on a 100 times lamer editor. heh....
Now I go and delete my lame editor's entry.
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
can't wait.
no really, i can't. =) |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
This seems nice and all, but I, for one, can't even install Paint.Net (the installer crashes near the end and undoes everything). |
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JackAsser
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 1995 |
@Oswald: Your editor isn't lame and personally I like alternatives that doesn't depend on .net stuff, also you have no idea how hard those filters was to write. It can be very difficult to patch and modify existing source etc. I do however think your attitude is extremly LAME. Get a grip on yourself man! |
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madcrow
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 39 |
Yeah... .NET is really rather lame and sort of limits things to new versions of windows running on fast machines... (although GNU mono might change that fairly soon, or at least change the windows part) If you were going to write plugins to allow a free PC paint program to do C64 work, I would have gone with GIMP plugins...
That said, I think that ultimately, a good C64-targeted paint program needs to be built from scratch with knowledge about things like color restrictions in from the start. Trying to add those to an existing program will almost always end up creating lamer images than a program designed for C64 graphics from the start.
--------------------------------------
please have pity on the n00bish emu kiddie responsible for the post above. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
madcrow: I disagree with the 2nd part of your post. Restricting the inner data structures of an existing Paintproggy to 16 colors, and run a c64 mode restriction filter when something changed is a good idea imho. If the proggy thats being modified is cleverly designed this can work out real good.
mirage: if .net is fast enough try to make the filters to try all possible color combinations out of the colors used in the char then pick the combination with least error, rather than dropping least used colors. what if you have the same amount of pixels of different colors "least used", how can you pick which is best to keep ? |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
@Oswald:
What makes you believe this thing happened overnight? I just looked up my first posts on the focus forum about this program and it dates october 15th, 2004... And even then I had been working on it at least a couple of weeks.
The fact that I only posted here a month ago is because it was only then i decided i would give everybody the oportunity to use it, not just focus members...
If anybody doesn't want to use it, for reasons stated (.net requirement, etc) i'm sure they'll be very happy to know that your program works out of the box and without those requirements... seriously, just keep working on it, i really don't see any reason why you shouldn't...
@radiantx:
Paint.net comes with an installer, timanthes will just be an executable... shouldn't crash or anything... i've already run it on 5 different computers and 2 other focus members are also running without any problems
@madcrow:
What kind of ancient hardware/software are you using? it runs on windows 2000 (that's 5 years ago) and my computer is a 4-year-old 1400 MHz machine and the program runs like a breeze...
About the building from scratch with knowledge about colorrestrictions; my layers have 8 charactermaps and 1 colormap on an 8x8 pixel basis attached to them, and they emulate how a real c64 works with transparent colours and a background color... How much more closer to the real thing do you want it to get?
I'm just posting here to get constructive feedback which will help me finish the product quicker and will make it more userfriendly for those who do intend on using it.
@Everybody else:
Thanks for the great comments and feedback, it really means a lot to me when people i respect and admire (Cruzer, Krill, Hollowman, et al) are happy with something I'm working on :) |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 887 |
hmm.. transparant background is REALLY nice idea.. that way it's easy to add rasterbars behind :) more colors!! yay!
i think it will also not be that hard to make super-UFLI modes this way, with all sprites differently colored ,and vertical sprite-color splits :) maybe even moving sprites in x also! |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: hmm.. transparant background is REALLY nice idea.. that way it's easy to add rasterbars behind :) more colors!! yay!
i think it will also not be that hard to make super-UFLI modes this way, with all sprites differently colored ,and vertical sprite-color splits :) maybe even moving sprites in x also!
Okay, you code the C64 display routines then :)
Maybe it's possible to take a look at the C64DTV videomodes...
Could be nice to add them too.
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: hmm.. transparant background is REALLY nice idea.. that way it's easy to add rasterbars behind :) more colors!! yay!
i think it will also not be that hard to make super-UFLI modes this way, with all sprites differently colored ,and vertical sprite-color splits :) maybe even moving sprites in x also!
Check out the interlaced UFLI editor. ;)
Am playing a little with that one.
It is quite amazing,and hardly flickers at all!!
Seemingly new colors appear.
And didn´t I already release a single-sprite-color UFLI editor?
You probably meant it linewise. ;) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: hmm.. transparant background is REALLY nice idea.. that way it's easy to add rasterbars behind :) more colors!! yay!
i think it will also not be that hard to make super-UFLI modes this way, with all sprites differently colored ,and vertical sprite-color splits :) maybe even moving sprites in x also!
Your pinball tables would have been graphically finished a lot faster too... |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: madcrow: I disagree with the 2nd part of your post. Restricting the inner data structures of an existing Paintproggy to 16 colors, and run a c64 mode restriction filter when something changed is a good idea imho. If the proggy thats being modified is cleverly designed this can work out real good.
mirage: if .net is fast enough try to make the filters to try all possible color combinations out of the colors used in the char then pick the combination with least error, rather than dropping least used colors. what if you have the same amount of pixels of different colors "least used", how can you pick which is best to keep ?
It was something Mirage asked to Sander and myself, and I think the concluding method has proven to be a good solution. Especially the fact that the 16 colours per char remain in a layer and clashes only appear when the layer restrictions are set to appropriate format, is incredibly handy.
In other words, usability of a tool is more important than detailed codepron. RTMFP is often the answer, even if the interface stinks and priorities are set to wrong issues. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
Hein: I was suggesting a slightly better method. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Quote: madcrow: I disagree with the 2nd part of your post. Restricting the inner data structures of an existing Paintproggy to 16 colors, and run a c64 mode restriction filter when something changed is a good idea imho. If the proggy thats being modified is cleverly designed this can work out real good.
mirage: if .net is fast enough try to make the filters to try all possible color combinations out of the colors used in the char then pick the combination with least error, rather than dropping least used colors. what if you have the same amount of pixels of different colors "least used", how can you pick which is best to keep ?
Oswald:
I don't see a difference between your method and mine?
Let's say I've got 1 char with 5 white pixels, 3 yellow ones, 2 green ones and 2 blue ones...
If I keep the green pixels I will have 2 blue pixels clashing, if I keep the blue pixels I will have 2 green pixels clashing...
I have no way of knowing which colours i should mark as clashing either way... For now I just pick the first color i find and mark the other ones as clashing, so if the upperleft pixels happens to be blue then the green colours will be marked as clashing. |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
mirage: I've implemented both methods, but checking now I think most of the time there's only minor difference. A picture needs to have a big amount of colors / chars to have differences big enough to be spotted instantly by eye.
There's a difference in what our routines do. You search for clash bugs, and I use them for converting pics. Deciding which pixel is better to mark as clash bug is rather a matter of taste or philosophy.
I convert a char with all possible 3 color combinations (out of the colors used in the char). If there's a color in the original char, that's not in the current 3, then I check RGB color distances, and I will replace that color with the closest from the current 3 . Then I add the distance to an error value, thats stored for each color variation/char. At the end the char will be converted with the 3 colors that generated the smallest error.
Taking your scenario my routine would drop the 2 green pixel, as replacing green with yellow results in least distance (error) as replacing blue (I assume dark blue) with yellow white or green.
However I think that the best algorythm is in a good gfxer's eye :) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
"However I think that the best algorythm is in a good gfxer's eye :)"
So true, that's why i'd rather not start replacing any colours for others and just leave them marked as 'clashing colours' after which the gfxer can just replace them with whatever colours he or she sees fit (or replace some non-clashing colours, so that the clashing colours become non-clashing again) :) |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Oswald: Maybe that's a bad surprise (and funny coincidence for some :), but I don't think it makes your programm useless. I had it in my HD and started already using it now I started working on my second C64 demo. It helped me on converting some small gfx and repixeling them so that they don't look awfull. Perhaps I will pixel something with that too in the future. Perhaps the other programm is more complicated and I may prefer to use yours for the simple stuff. Anyways,. I think I'll keep both of them in my HD. I actually got inspired for starting something similar for the sleepy CPC scene (I don't know when :)
But where is now the link of Project One? I was looking for it some days ago and now I can't even find the CSDb entry here! ;P I need to download the newest version if it's newer than the one I have (can't check right now) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Me trying to export stuff over the last couple of days:
First bitmap:
www.tehwinnar.com/regvice.jpg
Colors:
Oops, wrong bitorder... fixing:
Better... now trying to paint over the image to see what it'll do to colorclashes:
Still ok... we're exporting... took this oportunity to fix the palette colours... this is what it looks like now:
Trying to export an FLI image now...
Can't be bothered using the right opcodes to get the right colours in those 3 chars on the left at the moment... I'll leave that for a later time :)
Checking palette again:
Still looks fine...
Spent some time converting/retouching some pictures in FLI:
Still all fine... I will spend some time now integrating exporting and quick viewing in vice... over time i will have finished my realtime pal-emulation-preview window from within the paintprogram |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
amateur :) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
het is hier allemaal wat moeilijker dan op het focus forum... ik kan het niet helpen dat onze spullen superieur zijn, hoor |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
krijg je met spullen zonder merk.. mijn noname tv was ook binnen een week kaduuk. |
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Jayce
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39 |
focus forum is zo veel makkelijker dan deze zut :)
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: focus forum is zo veel makkelijker dan deze zut :)
Nep Europeaan.. ;P |
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algorithm
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 702 |
For converting, yes. analyse which colors would give the least error. (eg lookup table would be good idea)
then after, modifications can be made....
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: focus forum is zo veel makkelijker dan deze zut :)
But we don't know the URL eh!
HA! |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
And now something on-topic;
Is it also possible to swap the background color with a pixelcolor?
---
-= Silicon Ltd. =-
http://forum.siliconlimited.com
Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Jayce
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 39 |
Quote: But we don't know the URL eh!
HA!
aha, that's because it is a very secret forum only accessable for a few happy people ;)
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: aha, that's because it is a very secret forum only accessable for a few happy people ;)
Happy happy happy!
Joy joy joy ;)
Plus: Mirage uses it to show the progress of his tool, which is a really cool thing .. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
I know it's been a long time since i posted updates, but since the burkah intro (http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=29868&show=review) from Hein was released recently I decided to give an update on the progress, since the paintprogram was used a lot during the creation of that product. (And I don't want to mess up the comments or production notes for that entry, so i'm posting here instead)
1. the original bitmap in the intro was an FLI picture at first, but with my program it was simple to convert to multicolor bitmap (to keep the size of the intro down to a minimum)... Just by changing the restrictmode from FLIevery8lines to multicolor bitmap, and some minor repixeling afterwards.
2. the 'blink-effect' you see on the logo occasionally required the bits to be ordered equaly, so i had to code a 're-index' brush which swaps bitordering to get that to work
3. the graphics in the upper and lower border were re-indexed with my program aswell (you'll recognise the effort that Hein put into this by counting the number of sprites, the colours used, etc. He must have taken a lot of asperines for this to work like it does now ;) )
More stuff has gone in aswell:
There is now support for sprite-blend-priority layers and AFLI every 2 rasterlines, which means it's now possible to do UFLI pictures:
http://www.tehwinnar.com/timbf.jpg
original UFLI pictures can be transfered quite easily:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lars.verhoeff/UFLI1.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lars.verhoeff/UFLI2.jpg
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lars.verhoeff/UFLI3.jpg
(Nice craftwork, Johan... hope you don't mind me using this as an example ;)
That's it for now... There have been a LOT of updates since I last posted here, but I won't go into details, because I haven't released anything yet ;)
The program has been released to a selected number of people for pre-beta testing and i hope to release a semi-working version for everybody to try pretty soon :) |
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Nemezis
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 22 |
I suggest to remove this thread, as most (95%) links are broken and most of the text is useless. |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Im confused, can I download this tool or not? |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
looks nice! |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Thanks deev :) |
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Style
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 17 |
Ill check it out tonight, the screenies look impressive though! |
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HCL
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 717 |
I could possibly do one more logo when this proggy finally gets released. This guy surely knows what he's doing! :) |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
When can we expect a port to Linux? :)
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Style
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 17 |
yes! Linux port!
Ill try it under wine tonight anyway :)
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Ninja
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 407 |
Selectable restrictions, sprite-layers... HOORAY! So something what Raydomat started gets finally finished :) |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
err:module:import_dll Library mscoree.dll (which is needed by L"Y:\\bin\\timanthes\\Debug\\Timanthes.exe") not found
err:module:LdrInitializeThunk Main exe initialization for L"Y:\\bin\\timanthes\\Debug\\Timanthes.exe" failed, status c0000135
Where can I find mscoree.dll? |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
egads, it requires .NET framework - I guess Ill install it on my daughter's winwoes box at some point. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11154 |
ninja :=) raydomat had a big problem - as a paintprogram it sucked :=P another mistake was to restrict it to the screen area without borders, especially for demos it would be much more useful to be able to edit/convert sprites to put in the borders aswell. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
Quote: egads, it requires .NET framework - I guess Ill install it on my daughter's winwoes box at some point.
.. more sceners who are into training their kids to become part of the next-next generation? =) |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
She prefers OS X (my missus has a mac), but she has a winwoes box cos most of her games are winwoes only. She can login by herself onto the win pc and the mac. She can start firefox and select the bookmark she wants.
She's 4 by the way. Cant read yet :)
The rest of the network is linux boxen.
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A Life in Hell
Account closed
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 204 |
Quote: err:module:import_dll Library mscoree.dll (which is needed by L"Y:\\bin\\timanthes\\Debug\\Timanthes.exe") not found
err:module:LdrInitializeThunk Main exe initialization for L"Y:\\bin\\timanthes\\Debug\\Timanthes.exe" failed, status c0000135
Where can I find mscoree.dll?
might have more luck with mono than wine :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Great improvements!
It´s becoming very tempting to try it out oneday.
My ancient mindset -C64 tools for C64 graphics- starts to crumble.. ;)
And ofcoz I don´t mind..
Thank you for the free publicity!! 8D |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
give it a go, TCH :) I'm not interested in in all of the features, but pixelling UFLI is this editor is lovely! |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: give it a go, TCH :) I'm not interested in in all of the features, but pixelling UFLI is this editor is lovely!
Does it show the `UFLI-blocks 8x2´ when painting?
For me it is inevitable to work with that..
Anyway,I don´t have it.. ;) |
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Deev
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 206 |
you don't have the 8x2 blocks marked on the grid, but there is an 8x8 grid, so it's easy to work out your 8x2 from there (is this what you mean?).
There was a download link here last night, I hadn't realised it had been removed... |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Yeps,that was what I ment.
Figures there is an 8x8 grid.. ;)
Damn,I am close to always here.
And I missed that link because of overtime/being tired. :( |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Coooooooool!
Why can't I find any DOWNLOAD-Link for this magic tool? |
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Compyx
Registered: Jan 2005
Posts: 631 |
Quote: might have more luck with mono than wine :)
I have my doubts when it comes to compiling dotnet 2.0 sources with Mono, it might work though..
I tried downloading the source of Paint.net, but for some reason they keep it on a single server which quickly drops its speed to about 0.4kB/s and stalls after a while :(
Then I tried installing the DotNet framework 2.0.whatever under Wine, but that failed too (directories got created, but no files). However, I've yet to read a report of someone actually getting dot.net (2.0) to run under Wine, so it's not just me :)
Maybe I'm better off creating some plugins for the Gimp, they seem to be quite simple to implement.
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Jon
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2005
Posts: 247 |
Quote: Coooooooool!
Why can't I find any DOWNLOAD-Link for this magic tool?
It WAS up there... bummer that Mirage pulled it. From what I have seen, it is a FANTASTIC tool. I am more or less just "playing" with it now and not doing anything serious with it yet, though.
Perhaps Mirage doesn't think it is quite "ready for prime time", but from what I have seen, I am amazed.
-Ninj |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 887 |
:D
I just tested Timanthes, and what can I say? even dumbass coders can get something decent out of it ;D
http://www.interstyles.nl/test.bmp |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5031 |
putting aside my envyness, I must confess: this is THE tool for drawing pics on pc. I'm really curious how the dithering works in the converter, never ever seen it done so awesomely perfect. (check WVL's convert)
Mirage, you should release this, instead of teasing us :) |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
@WVL: You're great! Please do a gfx-collection with your state-of-the-art-never-out-of-fashion-porn... :)
And Mirage: Please release it for more beta-testers... :) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Yes, I wanna be a BETA-TESTER! :-O |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
believe me, you don't want to be a beta tester... the program is too complex as it is now... unless a majority of beta testers say it's ready for the public i won't release it yet... sorry :(
Hein, Sander, Krill, Scout, WVL, (Deev?), hollowman... ready for public release? |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 887 |
Quote: believe me, you don't want to be a beta tester... the program is too complex as it is now... unless a majority of beta testers say it's ready for the public i won't release it yet... sorry :(
Hein, Sander, Krill, Scout, WVL, (Deev?), hollowman... ready for public release?
I'd wait until you got rid of that GDI bug at least :) The rest of the things do not seem really troublesome to me :D |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 498 |
Quote: believe me, you don't want to be a beta tester... the program is too complex as it is now... unless a majority of beta testers say it's ready for the public i won't release it yet... sorry :(
Hein, Sander, Krill, Scout, WVL, (Deev?), hollowman... ready for public release?
I havent even installed it yet ;) |
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McValdemar
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2006
Posts: 1 |
Mirage,
first THANKS for this SUPERB program.
The only problem I found is the way to load the PRG into the C64 and show my image.
I followed the (great) tutorial to build an indexed image with c64 plaette limitations, I export it as a prg, but when I load it in any emulator I can't see it correctly.
Could you be so kind to post the right instructions to load and show the image on a 64?
Thanks again. |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
When you output a .prg it will be stored like this:
koala/hires-multicolour:
------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $3f40-$4328
colourmem - $4328-$4710
FLI:
----
'FLIgraph2.2/Black Mail' editor format
art-studio/hires-singlecolour:
------------------------------
pic - $2000-$3f40
charmem - $4000-43e8
AFLI every two lines (half working UFLI mode)
---------------------------------------------
pic - $6000-$7f40
charmems - $5000-$6000
I don't think anybody will be using any other mode, so i'll leave it with this
Hope this helps :) |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
FLI is certainly bigger. ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: FLI is certainly bigger. ;)
Not in the new mode Mirage came up with. He owns you all. |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Quote: FLI is certainly bigger. ;)
Yes, and it's BlackMail, not Black Mail.. saves another byte. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: Yes, and it's BlackMail, not Black Mail.. saves another byte.
Are you sure?
Check some old demos.. ;) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1568 |
Quote: Yes, and it's BlackMail, not Black Mail.. saves another byte.
Is it nit picking or nitpicking? ;P
(Is het miereneuken of mierenneuken?) |
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
there's a big difference between blackmail and black mail ;) |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 933 |
Both make sense.. some demos have Black Mail, others have BlackMail.. :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
About the editor, is it possible to load c64 format pictures like koala ?
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Mirage
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 113 |
Nope, sorry |
