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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Player detection for sidplay...
Hmmm, shouldn't it possible to include a kind of player detection in sidplay?
Plus a detection of the speed? (2x, 3x,...8x...)
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
there are hundregs of plaers out of here , you may request it in anoher player or completeleynew player of someone is willing to do one :) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Hundreds? Thousands! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
You're welcome to join the development team, Nata, and implement your funky ideas. I'm also bugging Adam Lorentzon to add Winamp plugin support and scopes since ages. ;-) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I would be completely satisfied if the player would be noted in STIL. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: You're welcome to join the development team, Nata, and implement your funky ideas. I'm also bugging Adam Lorentzon to add Winamp plugin support and scopes since ages. ;-)
Good idea! How do I join? What is required? :) |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quote: You're welcome to join the development team, Nata, and implement your funky ideas. I'm also bugging Adam Lorentzon to add Winamp plugin support and scopes since ages. ;-)
there are other newest resid based winamp plugin solutions avaiable :) however.. why the f**k none has got opportunity to select SID emulation paramaters just like in VICE? ;p |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
As an exercise - how do you accurately detect the player? Some are very similar with slight modifications. Music Assembler has many others very similar like it but not all work with each other's editor or data.
Some JCH series have similar start code but different later on.
There are countless DMC versions.
Some people used customised versions or reassembled per tune like the Falco Paul player. I know DJB when using SYNC wouldn't use the packer but would add/remove the routines as needed and assemble. Which adds to another point - some systems are smarter with memory use and only include code for some effects.
Are you talking about the sidplay library released under GPL or whatever? If so the player speed is set with extra coded added via timed interrupts for approximation. I acknowledge that some tunes will not play 100% using that method even if emulation is 100% accurate because the editing systems did not always spread out the extra play calls evenly. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
We try to compensate for that by adjusting the CIA timer intervals when necessary. But most of the time there's no audible difference anyway.
And regarding the player detection: Simon White already built kind of a database with over 100 (flavours of) different players. So far there was no time to implement it yet, unfortunately. But the bare slavejob of fingerprinting different playroutines for probably 95% of all tunes in HVSC is done and is waiting to be implemented. Blame real life for it... |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote: Good idea! How do I join? What is required? :)
Indepth knowledge of C++. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Player detection in sidplay sounds like a really bad idea.
I think I have more than 30 players, and some of them are just modified players.
Player-, soundspeed-, old/new sid+revision- and composer- detection is something people can put in the "drivers" they code for their own players. :-)
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: Player detection in sidplay sounds like a really bad idea.
I think I have more than 30 players, and some of them are just modified players.
Player-, soundspeed-, old/new sid+revision- and composer- detection is something people can put in the "drivers" they code for their own players. :-)
SID playerroutines are like viruses; they have signatures :)
So if somebody has some spare time to identify them all, you can put them in some kind of database.
Well, go ahead then!
---
8Bit Mayhem - The Commodore 64 Scenemusic Podcast
http://8bitmayhem.blogspot.com/ |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
But... why? If somebody invest such a huge amount of work, where is the benefit where it makes sense to do that work? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Hmmm. :)
This tool can detect players:
Amazing Player V1.2
Unfortunately it uses some stupid fastloader.
---
Btw.
Why we should start from zero, if others has already done some work?
And, shouldn't it be enough to search for "magic strings"?
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Well, I remember some driver-program, that was supposed to be able to identify players... which, then didn't detect the right versions of some of my players.
But again, I think it's time to let nata do some work, afterall he's the one asking all the questions, more or less ;-)
@Nata: He're a start...
http://unusedino.de/ec64/technical/project64/programmers_refere..
:) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Well, I remember some driver-program, that was supposed to be able to identify players... which, then didn't detect the right versions of some of my players.
But again, I think it's time to let nata do some work, afterall he's the one asking all the questions, more or less ;-)
@Nata: He're a start...
http://unusedino.de/ec64/technical/project64/programmers_refere..
:)
Aha, nobody cares if the tool doesn't recognizes every single jeff modification. :P |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
but someone would care if you did some work yourself :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Hmmm. :)
This tool can detect players:
Amazing Player V1.2
Unfortunately it uses some stupid fastloader.
---
Btw.
Why we should start from zero, if others has already done some work?
And, shouldn't it be enough to search for "magic strings"?
I'm wondering to what use the player identification thing would be? |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Me too. Nobody answered my question above, but it seems to be very important since some people want it so desperately. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
WHY?????
WHO CARES!! ;) ;P ;) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
It's just a "nice to know" feature. No more - no less. Probably the reason it never made it to a releasable state. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Include the recognition algorithm, an empty recognition database and instructions on how to get started :)
Btw. channel muting and official SID dump output would rock. The latter preferably in three flavors:
1) realtime, like Cubic Player & VacSID
2) to file, each frame
3) to file, cycle exact (include SID internal state, like envelope generator counter) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Btw.
Now I added a download link for Amazing player.
Amazing Player V1.2 |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Well, as mentioned before - its a nice to know thing.
I have many times wondered "what player did the guy use for this particular tune" ?
For example, there are some (or was it just one ? dunno) laxity tune(s) that were made with a rob hubbard player. I had allways wondered about them, why they sound so much like a rob hubbard tune - until i one day had the chance to ask laxity about them and he said they were actually made with a rob hubbard routine.
Also its "nice to know" how the player evolution of certain musicians went (example : reyn ouwehand - music assembler / mon rountine ...) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Well, as mentioned before - its a nice to know thing.
I have many times wondered "what player did the guy use for this particular tune" ?
For example, there are some (or was it just one ? dunno) laxity tune(s) that were made with a rob hubbard player. I had allways wondered about them, why they sound so much like a rob hubbard tune - until i one day had the chance to ask laxity about them and he said they were actually made with a rob hubbard routine.
Also its "nice to know" how the player evolution of certain musicians went (example : reyn ouwehand - music assembler / mon rountine ...)
:) .. When did I tell you this?.. It's true, but I don't remember (blame it on my age!) ;) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Rumours have it that channel muting in Sidplay2 may soon become reality. =) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Rumours have it that channel muting in Sidplay2 may soon become reality. =)
It would be better to implememt reSID interpolation. :]
At the moment sidplay2 has extremely low quality.
Plus: Stereo wouldn't be a bad idea. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
SIDdump would kinda kill the fun of doing music on c64. People would simply rip sounds from eachother, instead of experimenting on their own.
And stereo on sid... c'mon... get serious and try to love the mono sound of the sid :)
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: SIDdump would kinda kill the fun of doing music on c64. People would simply rip sounds from eachother, instead of experimenting on their own.
And stereo on sid... c'mon... get serious and try to love the mono sound of the sid :)
Nah, we already have siddump. :)
Usually ripping sounds doesn't help much, since the most instruments have quite a simple structure.
Anyway, it's a good way to learn how to create instruments. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting laxity:) .. When did I tell you this?.. It's true, but I don't remember (blame it on my age!) ;)
I sent you a fanboy-email via vibrants.dk last year, we had a little chat and i was talking about what a coincedence it is that your birthday and that of your son are remotely similar to mine (16.05.1973). The Tune i was talking about was "Last Starfighter".
I was asking why it sounded so much like rob hubbard and you said, its probably because you used his player for that tune :-)
(STIL entry anyone ? :-)) )
We were also talking about how ironic it is, that years ago you told JCH to stop using your player and now you are using his (editor) :-))
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Not necessarily for hardcore ripping of sounds, but sometimes it'd just be fun to see in realtime what the composer was doing. Of the existing tools Cubic Player is a DOS protected mode program, it crashes regularly on WinXP and such. And VacSID will probably only run on pure DOS or inside a virtual machine.
Btw. VacSID also tries to do realtime pattern display; it could be argued it's the ultimate devil's tool :) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
@LAXITY: BTW. i hope i didnt spill any news you didnt want spread about
you using a rob hubbard routine :-)
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Not necessarily for hardcore ripping of sounds, but sometimes it'd just be fun to see in realtime what the composer was doing. Of the existing tools Cubic Player is a DOS protected mode program, it crashes regularly on WinXP and such. And VacSID will probably only run on pure DOS or inside a virtual machine.
Btw. VacSID also tries to do realtime pattern display; it could be argued it's the ultimate devil's tool :)
Hmm. VacSID sounds good.. :D
Why not make a Windows port? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Sure, go ahead and do it...!
Seriously, Nata, your ongoing requests coupled with that slightly ignorant "gimmegimmegimme" attitude is not going to get you anywhere. It got to a point where it just causes frowns and raised eyebrows...
I think it doesn't need to be argued that armchair activism on a level you display it won't get anything moving.
No hard feelings, just my 2 cents. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: @LAXITY: BTW. i hope i didnt spill any news you didnt want spread about
you using a rob hubbard routine :-)
Nonono.. Don't like secrets.. Also that I told JCH to stop using my player was pure stupidity and ignorance.. Actually I thought his music in my player sounded better than mine back then.. I was, you know, 14 and young and dumb ;) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Why does this bother you? Hmmm? :P
And why some people here think that everything I ask is only for me? Hmmm?
It has nothing to do with "gimme gimme gimme". I want to keep the things alive with my (crazy) ideas. (Just look to the glorious GT2 thread) :)
I'm not sure how often, but I've told it so many times: I'm not a coder and never will become one.
Ps: Anyway, maybe it's time to extend my ignore list. :P
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*By the way*
@Laxity
Wasn't it a bit looserish to steal & use Hubbards player?
Ok, others as well ripped his *PLAYER*, but I can't see any justification for this.
It's interesting so see that the most people ignore this abuse.
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@Cadaver: Hmmm. It seems that VacSID does not work here in my DosBox.
I get the following error when I start it:
ROMSID: UNRECOVERABLE ERROR#3 OCCURED
MODULE [UNKNOWN]
Anyway it's not too important... :)
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
@Nata: consider that people already generally do the best they can in their limited free time, so it's likely they're not overjoyed by a continuous barrage of strange ideas/requests/suggestions on this forum, which is apart from you quite free from those so far.
On lemon64 you'd be far more at home :)
Plus considering your scene "age" compared to Laxity's, it would probably be wise of you to keep your mouth shut about player usage. You don't use your own player either, so are you looserish too by this definition? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: Why does this bother you? Hmmm? :P
And why some people here think that everything I ask is only for me? Hmmm?
It has nothing to do with "gimme gimme gimme". I want to keep the things alive with my (crazy) ideas. (Just look to the glorious GT2 thread) :)
I'm not sure how often, but I've told it so many times: I'm not a coder and never will become one.
Ps: Anyway, maybe it's time to extend my ignore list. :P
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*By the way*
@Laxity
Wasn't it a bit looserish to steal & use Hubbards player?
Ok, others as well ripped his *PLAYER*, but I can't see any justification for this.
It's interesting so see that the most people ignore this abuse.
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@Cadaver: Hmmm. It seems that VacSID does not work here in my DosBox.
I get the following error when I start it:
ROMSID: UNRECOVERABLE ERROR#3 OCCURED
MODULE [UNKNOWN]
Anyway it's not too important... :)
What's that? Why should that be looserish? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Cadaver wrote:
" Plus considering your scene "age" compared to Laxity's, it would probably be wise of you to keep your mouth shut about player usage. You don't use your own player either, so are you looserish too by this definition?"
reconsider, then you (probably) can imagine the difference. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Thinking of it, what WOULD be looserish, would be using Rob's player and pretending it was my own.. I'm not sure I would be able to fool that many people, though... Anyway, Nata, you can think what you like - I'm pretty sure that you're more or less alone with you view on this one.. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
That was just the (lame) joke part, the real point is that you have no business judging that player ripping long ago. There was no C=Hacking or SidIN magazine to easily tell the hubbard data structure, you had to hack it by yourself. Maybe not so looserish after all? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: What's that? Why should that be looserish?
Simple: It was an act of piracy. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
In the words of Homer Simpson: "DOH!". Damn, Nata - you just shot yourself in the foot there. Nice going, dude. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: In the words of Homer Simpson: "DOH!". Damn, Nata - you just shot yourself in the foot there. Nice going, dude.
Why? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
LOL, double LOL! |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Never mind.. You wouldn't understand! |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Never mind.. You wouldn't understand!
Just tell me! :) |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Go figure!.. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
I see, You can't! :)
Bad Omen for Laxity :D |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Sigh.. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: I see, You can't! :)
Bad Omen for Laxity :D
Better use a mirror,Nata. ;) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Better use a mirror,Nata. ;)
Wow! What a nice face & body! :P |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Quote: Wow! What a nice face & body! :P
Ok,since you are so slow...
It´s ment to be more of a SELF-REFLECTING kind of thing.. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Ok,since you are so slow...
It´s ment to be more of a SELF-REFLECTING kind of thing..
Slow?
SELF-REFLECTING?
I just can laugh!!! Ha! Ha! Haaaaa! :D |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Shit, i knew i should have shut my mouth, sorry about that thomas.
I dare to say, in the light of the accomplishments on the side of laxity and the fact that he had a undeniable influence on many composers back in the old days up till today that I find it a somewhat arrogant, throwing such hard words as "looserish" and "act of piracy" his way, that was totally uncalled for.
No offence nata, i dont want to sound patronizing, but seriously - you werent there back in the old days, things were different then.
I dont think anyone here would go so far and start slagging on laxity for using someone elses player (other than you, apparently).
I mean, the tune in question "Last Starfighter" is a classic piece all by itself and has laxity written all over it (and happens to be one of my alltime favorites) I like the difference it has compared to his other tunes due to its player origins.
I only see benefits, wheras you only seem to see loserism and acts of piracy. What a Pitty.
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I had a dream of someone putting his foot into a big pile of dogshit (can happen). He slips, tumbles and falls into the pile of dogshit with his face full front ahead. That happens, too. But then that guy noticed that dogshit is actually warm and cozy, and besides it didn't smell that bad once he was used to it. So he started to roll in it, making himself dirty all over and he laughed about it. Oh man, how he laughed.
Dreams are strange sometimes... |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
You old scener guys just wanna protect any abuse. |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Nata: You obviously have not understood a single bit about 1980's scene. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I cant help to notice, nata you kinda just pissed on laxity, maniacs of noise and vibrants all together.
In the aftermath you singlehandedly also managed to bring half
of the CSDb users up against you. Im impressed :-)
I think, not even wanderer managed that so quickly ..
No hard feelings though, you have your opinion and you defend it, no matter what. I like that. Though, I absolutely can not agree with you. But thats democracy.
Cheers!
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
I cant help to notice, nata you kinda just pissed on laxity, maniacs of noise and vibrants all together.
In the aftermath you singlehandedly also managed to bring half
of the CSDb users up against you. Im impressed :-)
I think, not even wanderer managed that so quickly ..
No hard feelings though, you have your opinion and you defend it, no matter what. I like that. Though, I absolutely can not agree with you. But thats democracy.
Cheers!
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Nata, I will quote my very good virtual friend now. Take it as a well meant advice for you:
It would be very wise to just shut up and compose.
Do it for yourself, for me and everybody else in the C64 scene. It will be good for you. People will eventually forget that you were such a shallow-brained jackass insulting decent and humble oldcomers like Laxity. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
There were many people doing music in Hubbards player.
Among the more famous early ones is Jeroen Kimmel (Red) of The Judges.
Check out Crazy Sample II or Red Hubbard for example.
All done in a ml-monitor ofcourse, but that's the way you did it too Laxity, no? :)
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Well every good scene musician used Hubbard's player back then because it was the only good player which had an editor available (a hacked one though). |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
Quote: Well every good scene musician used Hubbard's player back then because it was the only good player which had an editor available (a hacked one though).
If you are referring to Predators (Geir Tjelta) Hubbard editor, it was released in 1988.
Before that, ml-monitor. :)
Even I tried to do some music in Hubbards routine, but I didn't know how to compose very well back then, so it was pure crap. :)
Drake did some Hubbard remixes by only manipulating the original song which you can hear in Turbo Hack V1.
Also, isn't the song in File-Compactor III [dutch] actually a remix of Hubbards Formula One Simulator in Hubbards routine?
EDIT: found it in Hubbards own Final Synth Sample II. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Wasnt there a tool by Elysium which detected players? cant remember the name and its not listed here. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Quote: Why does this bother you? Hmmm? :P
And why some people here think that everything I ask is only for me? Hmmm?
It has nothing to do with "gimme gimme gimme". I want to keep the things alive with my (crazy) ideas. (Just look to the glorious GT2 thread) :)
I'm not sure how often, but I've told it so many times: I'm not a coder and never will become one.
Ps: Anyway, maybe it's time to extend my ignore list. :P
---
*By the way*
@Laxity
Wasn't it a bit looserish to steal & use Hubbards player?
Ok, others as well ripped his *PLAYER*, but I can't see any justification for this.
It's interesting so see that the most people ignore this abuse.
---
@Cadaver: Hmmm. It seems that VacSID does not work here in my DosBox.
I get the following error when I start it:
ROMSID: UNRECOVERABLE ERROR#3 OCCURED
MODULE [UNKNOWN]
Anyway it's not too important... :)
You say Laxity using Rob's player is piracy and other shit. So you prepared to say that about yourself? You don't code the player code used in anything you release.
If anything you've basically insulted almost every person that created music on C64 as most never coded the player they used. |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: There were many people doing music in Hubbards player.
Among the more famous early ones is Jeroen Kimmel (Red) of The Judges.
Check out Crazy Sample II or Red Hubbard for example.
All done in a ml-monitor ofcourse, but that's the way you did it too Laxity, no? :)
Yeah, in a looserish machine code monitor. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
And let me guess, that ML monitor wasn't coded by you either...! Sheesh, how lame can you get! ;-) |
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Raf
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 343 |
Quote: Hmm. VacSID sounds good.. :D
Why not make a Windows port?
you're starting to call requests just like Ramos do... go learn programming yourself man ;-) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Funny to see how people try to justify this kind of abuse.
But that's no surprise! As I have expected - only ignorance!
I guess 80's scene was mainly a cracker scene (get commercial software for free)
Sure, at the time I wasn't in 'scene', but I'm proud that I never owned any stolen software (or pieces of it).
The point is that people (obviously not only Laxity) used Hubbards property to use it for own purposes. I guess that nobody gave Hubbard money for using his routine?. Hmmm?
Gave he an 'OK' for that? Hmmm? Just consider which financial "disadvantages" you & others caused...
It's a different thing if someone uses Hubbards player in 1987 or in 2006. In this case we can tell that it was another time. It was a time where a lot people had to earn money with c64 computers.
It's a difference if someone uses software with 'public domain' or Freeware status. You explicitly have the permission from the author to use it.
However, why I waste time to tell you this? I don't know...
I guess the most people (just look to the "what's your age" thread) here are old enough to understand what I mean. :)
Personally I have nothing against Laxity (or his music). I don't know him and probably never will see him outside virtual reality. (@laxity, I guess you are an "OK" man, aren't you?) :)
Anyway, it doesn't bother me if the whole c64-scene hates me now. I can live with that. :P
---
Back to topic:
Yes, there are a few other tools that allow to detect the players. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Funny to see how people try to justify this kind of abuse.
But that's no surprise! As I have expected - only ignorance!
I guess 80's scene was mainly a cracker scene (get commercial software for free)
Sure, at the time I wasn't in 'scene', but I'm proud that I never owned any stolen software (or pieces of it).
The point is that people (obviously not only Laxity) used Hubbards property to use it for own purposes. I guess that nobody gave Hubbard money for using his routine?. Hmmm?
Gave he an 'OK' for that? Hmmm? Just consider which financial "disadvantages" you & others caused...
It's a different thing if someone uses Hubbards player in 1987 or in 2006. In this case we can tell that it was another time. It was a time where a lot people had to earn money with c64 computers.
It's a difference if someone uses software with 'public domain' or Freeware status. You explicitly have the permission from the author to use it.
However, why I waste time to tell you this? I don't know...
I guess the most people (just look to the "what's your age" thread) here are old enough to understand what I mean. :)
Personally I have nothing against Laxity (or his music). I don't know him and probably never will see him outside virtual reality. (@laxity, I guess you are an "OK" man, aren't you?) :)
Anyway, it doesn't bother me if the whole c64-scene hates me now. I can live with that. :P
---
Back to topic:
Yes, there are a few other tools that allow to detect the players.
Gotta send you a PM |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
lets just hope using tasm isnt too much of an act of piracy |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
@Nata: Remember the average age and intentions (fun, not financial gain!) of scene people ripping players back then, and maybe you'll better understand how your opinion may be considered harsh and unwise. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting nataJust consider which financial "disadvantages" you & others caused...
Now that you have to explain to me, because i fail to see the damage laxity did by reverse engeneering rob hubbads player for no commercial gain (tunes used in demos).
Or did i miss the part where laxity made it to fame and fortune with those particular tunes and shamelessly deprived rob hubbard of all the shitloads of money he got out of it.
In that case, youre right and we're all fools. But, i doubt that seriously.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Quoting nataJust consider which financial "disadvantages" you & others caused...
Now that you have to explain to me, because i fail to see the damage laxity did by reverse engeneering rob hubbads player for no commercial gain (tunes used in demos).
Or did i miss the part where laxity made it to fame and fortune with those particular tunes and shamelessly deprived rob hubbard of all the shitloads of money he got out of it.
In that case, youre right and we're all fools. But, i doubt that seriously.
I think, I've already stated that in the post above! |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quoting nataI'm proud that I never owned any stolen software (or pieces of it).
I guess you mean "copied" software, not actually "stolen" which involves physical media which you literally take away from it's owner?
Covering other people music and distributing it without license is just as much copyright infingement as is using other people's code without their pemission. I think the word usually used for copyright infringement is "piracy". |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting TNTCovering other people music and distributing it without license is just as much copyright infingement
Uh, then i guess im in real big trouble then :-) |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Quoting nataJust consider which financial "disadvantages" you & others caused...
Now that you have to explain to me, because i fail to see the damage laxity did by reverse engeneering rob hubbads player for no commercial gain (tunes used in demos).
Or did i miss the part where laxity made it to fame and fortune with those particular tunes and shamelessly deprived rob hubbard of all the shitloads of money he got out of it.
In that case, youre right and we're all fools. But, i doubt that seriously.
@stainless
Ahaa! Only in 'demos'... Tssss :D |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Quoting TNTCovering other people music and distributing it without license is just as much copyright infingement
Uh, then i guess im in real big trouble then :-)
Most likely nobody cares, much like when using music routine written by somebody else, but maybe you should rething your moral standards - are you really that much above everyone else that your post implied, after all? |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting TNTare you really that much above everyone else that your post implied, after all?
Me ? |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Quoting TNTare you really that much above everyone else that your post implied, after all?
Me ?
Ha! Ha! :D |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I really don't see the point of your statements.. I really really don't. You keep on insulting people (not just me. Actually, I can take it.) with your selfrighteousness and lack of perspective. |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@creaMD
Thanks for this meaningful PM !
---
@laxity
Well, sorry for you if you can't understand it.
Do you really think it was OK (even if YOU were very young), to use HIS PLAYER without permission? Maybe, if you had asked him he would have sold it to you (and to everyone else)
Don't you think he has lost a lot of money? Maybe you can imagine how valuable such a advanced playroutine was. I guess you would never have been able to give him several thousand Euros.
Why don't you admit that it wasn't Ok?
Sure, you have learned a lot from his playroutine, but IMHO it was wrong to use it for your own releases.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Why don't you see that it was indeed ok.
Quote:I guess 80's scene was mainly a cracker scene
Wrong, very much of the 1986/1987 demo scene happened on the UK compunet where also Rob Hubbard appeared for once in a while. He didn't seem to have a problem with people using his music or player. |
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Tch
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 512 |
Hmmmm,Nata.
The Rob Hubbard player never was for sale!! X)
You are amazing..
Family of G.W.Bush?
"Stay the course (to self-destruction)"... ;P |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Nata: I'm sure the tools you use also have some "stolen" things from Hubbard's or others' players. So basically it would also be wrong of you to release anything.
But that's not my point really... I just think you do a bit too much of fucking around in here. Showing a bit more respect in general, would be a good thing for you to do.
So I suggest you calm down a bit, and maybe try to contribute a bit more to the scene... instead of just posting in here. |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Quoting TNTare you really that much above everyone else that your post implied, after all?
Me ?
?TOO MUCH NATA ERROR
Scanning too fast through posts made me mistake your post as nata's. He's the hypocrite, not you. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
I never asked permission for JCH hardrestart, or ldx #$00; jsr channel; ldx #$07; jsr channel; ldx #$0e, or CyberTracker, OdinTracker & SoundTracker64 authors for the concept of soundtracker patterns on C64. So GT is indeed low, dirty and looserish. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
@Cadaver: same here. I had a look both in jch's and laxity's players :-)
"the ldx #$00 jsr channel, ldx #$07..." thing was something I came up with myself back then (even though others have done that too) after seeing it done in a slightly different way in the jch player. :)
Also I analyzed Tim Follin's music, to see how he did the trigging of notes.
I gladly admit that. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
It fascinates me to see what people can do with other people's routines. Laxity's old hubbard hacks are really great!, so was Red's! go go "Edie Ball" !!!!! :) "3545 II" !!!!! The Sad Sausage rulez! hehe |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting nataDon't you think he has lost a lot of money?
P L E A S E, i beg you. Explain to us HOW and WHY, for the love of all thats sacred, did rob hubbard lose any money by these happenings.
And please, *PLEASE* do not recite any of the usual 'lost revenue' fearytales that we hear day by day from the corporate conglomerates. I want a real, sane reason for this mumbo jumbo.
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
As Nata has something about stolen code I guess he won't be making any more music on C64...
Why doesn't he do a bit of research in to the matter? Then he will have his signatures for his player detection.
Sort of interesting how Nata called us ignorant on many matters but looking over his history here and well... |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I'm pretty sure all of us would have a different view of the subject, if I or someone else had hacked Rob Hubbards driver in a commercial endeavour. Rob hasn't ever mentioned these things as being a problem for him today or in the past.
Actually, come to think of it, almost all my drivers have the same initializaion code a Rob's, because I find the code beautyful (laughing is allowed).
jmp setInit
jmp setStop
bit isPlaying
bmi update
bvs stopped
; init code -->
This could be done in a 100 ways, but I just find this so elegant ;).. (Who said I'm autistic? ;)..) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting laxityI'm pretty sure all of us would have a different view of the subject, if I or someone else had hacked Rob Hubbards driver in a commercial endeavour
I second that. Im actually pretty sure if you would have used robs player for commercial gain you would have lost alot of reputation among the scene (back in the old days and today).
I would have even agreed with natas point of view in that case.
But thats all just "what if". The fact is you didnt, so why is he getting his knickers in a twist about it ?
Even nata must see the benefit of such a "remix" culture, if people like laxity had not reversed engeneered rob hubbards player (wich was defacto THE top of the line player at its time) then he (maybe) wouldnt have evolved his own player the way he has and thus we wouldnt be enjoying his many great works today.
If you take the time to read the notes to Sid duzz it (my favorite editor/player btw), GRG even admits that the player
roots back to rob hubbards original design.
Also im pretty sure, most of the big names in the c64 music scene have at one point or the other used techniques they had seen in rob's routines.
So where would the c64 music scene be, if we all would think
like nata.
Sorry, but i think that is a very narrow minded point of view.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@stryyker
May I ask what you mean with "looking over his history" ...?
Anyway,...
1. I have never used ripped instruments for my OWN music!
2. Cane/ADSR never complained about my covers of his tunes. (He was in contact with me)
Just analyze the tunes and you will see how much difference there is. (even if it sounds almost the same.
There are a lot of things (even with playroutines) that can be done in a similar/different way. There is no need to copy the whole thing 1:1.
@Stainless
Sorry, if you still can't understand - sorry for you! :)
(please read some posts above, or this text)
@"everyone"
Sure, a lot of todays playroutines maybe contain a few pieces of RH code (or something that is inspired by it), but not the whole...
@laxity
I think you would have been able to rewrite (rebuild) Hubbards routine, without using a 1:1 version of it. You used the whole piece of it in a time (1987), where RH could have earned a lot of money by selling it.
Ok, if this for RH never was a problem then maybe it isn't worth to discuss this here.
I know it was wrong to tell you my opinion (my attitude about this won't change) in such a direct & loutish way, but now it's too late. :I
Still I think that it wasn't OK from legal side . I'm not a real scener, therefore in general I can't see any heroic deed in ripping playroutines.
However, I hope you can forgive me. :)
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: @stryyker
May I ask what you mean with "looking over his history" ...?
Anyway,...
1. I have never used ripped instruments for my OWN music!
2. Cane/ADSR never complained about my covers of his tunes. (He was in contact with me)
Just analyze the tunes and you will see how much difference there is. (even if it sounds almost the same.
There are a lot of things (even with playroutines) that can be done in a similar/different way. There is no need to copy the whole thing 1:1.
@Stainless
Sorry, if you still can't understand - sorry for you! :)
(please read some posts above, or this text)
@"everyone"
Sure, a lot of todays playroutines maybe contain a few pieces of RH code (or something that is inspired by it), but not the whole...
@laxity
I think you would have been able to rewrite (rebuild) Hubbards routine, without using a 1:1 version of it. You used the whole piece of it in a time (1987), where RH could have earned a lot of money by selling it.
Ok, if this for RH never was a problem then maybe it isn't worth to discuss this here.
I know it was wrong to tell you my opinion (my attitude about this won't change) in such a direct & loutish way, but now it's too late. :I
Still I think that it wasn't OK from legal side . I'm not a real scener, therefore in general I can't see any heroic deed in ripping playroutines.
However, I hope you can forgive me. :)
You don't get a slightest clue how scene worked in past (nor do I according to some oldschool crackers ;-), but I at least have enough sanity not to judge their past deeds from today perspective.
For you everything is casual.. there are mobiles, internet.. in 1987 the communication mostly concerned of swapping of snailmails.. or calling bulletin board. Try to contact Hubbard today.. you will maybe manage to do it. In past many sceners were isolated.
Thanx to internet you now can come with your young and naive views and attempt to give an old an respected scener lessons in what is good and what is not.
Now you can afford cheap legal windows (linux, etc.), and legal cheap internet connection. All this great world gives you perfect opportunity to join an old rotten community of illegal haxxors and craxxors who don't understand your perfectly legal and acceptable view on their evil past activities.
This new era of internet gave you - 23 years young dude - an opportunity to look down on a legendary musician and "judge" him.
In past you would be just lamer. Who knows if you ever had chance to compose anything on c64 at that time, and who knows if you didn't play cracked games or use cracked or reverse engineered utilities.
Thanx to internet you have chance to speak to legend, and all you do is to insult him. I can accept the fact that you are too young to understand, but I can't forgive you being so arrogant to not to try understand.
roman |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
I see no point in rebuilding his driver at all (I take it you mean to sound exactly the same). I made my own driver about 4-5 months after I started experimenting with Rob's, because I found that using his was unoriginal and uninspireing - and most importantly: it wasn't my own driver, so part of my music would always sounded part Rob.
Using his driver was a challenge, not only musically, but technically. I did not reverse engineer his routines, but deducted the works of the data structure and learned a great deal (That's called: hands-on learning, btw.!). That was a lot of fun. All that YOU see is that I and other people STOLE someones software only to misuse it, and that's that.. That's not the intire picture and it's a pitty you can't see that investigating and refering to other peoples work, hands-on or not, is the way that pretty much most development is and gets done. If every generation of people had to start from scrach because noone was allowed to have a look at and try other peoples work, we'd get nowhere. I would admit, any day of the year, that the Rob Hubbard driver expirience tought me a great deal in many aspects of music and coding, noone ever tought me how to code, compose or play music, and I'm actually proud of that, the Rob Hubbard driver thing was step one in that process.
Actually, Rob Hubbard animated and tought a lot of people a lot about music and especially about driver coding in the past, which is probably the greates accomplishment of them all. I for one wish everybody had misused my driver to learn and get better. THAT would make me very proud. It's not worth any money, but boy - is that an achievement worth mentioning.
Anyway, enough battering - there's no point to it. You stand with your views and I must admit that you didn't convince of changing mine - so I'm stuck with them. Oh dear ;)
I find you views relevant and often quite interesting, but your tone, my friend, is way over the top sometimes. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1105 |
hear hear! |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
@creamd,
Either everyone tries accept my attitude or not!
It's your problem if YOU can't forgive me.
(Btw. Yes, I have understood your PM, but anyway...)
@laxity
I have already stated that I have used too harsh words to judge you. I'm really sorry for that.
END |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
Quote: @creamd,
Either everyone tries accept my attitude or not!
It's your problem if YOU can't forgive me.
(Btw. Yes, I have understood your PM, but anyway...)
@laxity
I have already stated that I have used too harsh words to judge you. I'm really sorry for that.
END
Indeed you had. It's funny how you write "...too harsh words to judge you.".. I'm not sure it's your privilige to judge me at all, not matter what words you choose. Let's just say it's lost in translation, and leave it here, shall we?
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
Someone doing covers of tunes he likes blaming others for doing covers of code they like. Isn't that an illegal copy of the story about the pot calling the kettle black? |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Some appalling cockiness, Nata... Technological development is purposeful cumulation of creative contributions. Claiming differently is simple glorification. Genius inventors like Tesla and Faraday are extremely rare, and the probability you are one of them is close to the reciprocal of the constant of Avogadro. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
I assume sceners should also have purchased the Yie Ar Kung Fu font from Ocean (and other respective pieces of ripped art, from respective owners) so that those could have made even more money. :) |
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Jetboy
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 338 |
And we should pay royalties to whoever invented arithmetics... |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Jetboy, if you are not already doing that, you can get into serious trouble!!! ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Nata: Did you clear the rights for those Mario and Zelda 'covers' you did, btw? Did you ask Matt Gray whether or not you're allowed to use his Last Ninja II composition? Or Ben Daglish for that Last Ninja Jam? Are the rights for Bonanza.sid cleared? Imagine the loss of money, I was just about to buy the original soundtrack.
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Nata: Did you clear the rights for those Mario and Zelda 'covers' you did, btw? Did you ask Matt Gray whether or not you're allowed to use his Last Ninja II composition? Or Ben Daglish for that Last Ninja Jam? Are the rights for Bonanza.sid cleared? Imagine the loss of money, I was just about to buy the original soundtrack.
@Mr. Linus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_version
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Are we going to post links? I want to do that too!
Quote:Oh no! I offered a download of me performing a cover on my website. Is it too late for me to pay now?
You should immediately remove the file until it is properly licensed. Once it is, you can make retroactive payments for the limited time that it was up illegally.
http://www.harryfox.com/public/infoFAQDigitalLicensing.jsp |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
this guy is just wasting people's time |
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: Nata: Did you clear the rights for those Mario and Zelda 'covers' you did, btw? Did you ask Matt Gray whether or not you're allowed to use his Last Ninja II composition? Or Ben Daglish for that Last Ninja Jam? Are the rights for Bonanza.sid cleared? Imagine the loss of money, I was just about to buy the original soundtrack.
@ Mr. Linus
And what I forgot. Why do you come to talk about covers? Hmmm?
Has it any significance here? NO!
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
No significance. I'm sure you mentioned something about using the work of others without permission. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
@Miss Nata:
"I'm sure you mentioned something about using the work of others without permission."
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Bamu®
Account closed
Registered: May 2005
Posts: 1332 |
Quote: @Miss Nata:
"I'm sure you mentioned something about using the work of others without permission."
Are you sure you know the music law (+rights)? |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Where I live the author has copyright of it whether it be be text, music or other material. It applies the same to music or program code here in Australia. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
@stryker: and its like that in most parts of the world ofcourse :)
"Wrong, very much of the 1986/1987 demo scene happened on the UK compunet where also Rob Hubbard appeared for once in a while. He didn't seem to have a problem with people using his music or player."
i actually remember some dispute between rob hubbard and red.... red was -if i recall correctly- the first one to hack hubbards player and use it in a more or less widely spread production. and hubbard wasnt happy with it :=P |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
@Groepaz: you were on CNET? |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
I don't really think authors mind that mr. and mrs. Hobbyist use pieces of code or compositions for personal pleasure. It's not that they make any money out of it. What's the subject again? |
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Laxity
Registered: Aug 2005
Posts: 459 |
How the emancipation of the individual influences the world economy? |
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Olla
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 3 |
@Nata: honestly who give a flying fart about if Laxity used Rob's player for a non- commerical demo tune back in 1987?
I found it amazing, I stil does that Thomas, at age 14 was able to hack and understand how Rob's player was put together, compose his own tune in it simply by using a machinecode monitor!! Not many people could do that back then. Respect!
Wasn't it Johannes Bjerregaard who used Rob's player in a release game for Hewson... Was it Eagles, or Tiger Mission .. Can't remember ... Those were the days .. ;-)
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markus sinalco
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Quote: How the emancipation of the individual influences the world economy?
World economy is self-employing chaos theory, please consider that ... ;( |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Quote: World economy is self-employing chaos theory, please consider that ... ;(
Finally, the holy grail, we've found it!! With ushering these few words, this one single sentence, you've put 99.9371% of the economists out of work! |
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Hein
Registered: Apr 2004
Posts: 954 |
That will teach them a lesson! |
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
Right, that is for fucking with my wages :) |
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markus sinalco
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
"the holy grail" ... like in "The Fisher King" ? DOH !
"That will teach them a lesson!" - Not Really, I think ;) LOL
If you are a teacher, provocation is just a matter of fact.
Not to be taken seriously! Dr. Mogensen, my JCH pills please !
Hard & Funny ... CSDB ! @[_]~~
(@BEN - Please don't fuck the wages !)
(@Thomas - Another Lesson, Pleeese !) ........... >:-)
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Ben
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 163 |
For my friend Markus Sinalco:
http://www.c64.org/HVSC/VARIOUS/S-Z/The_Dungeon_Master/A-minor_..
<edit>Wrong thread.. by the way.. but we seem to have the habit of getting every thread totally off topic..</edit> |
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markus sinalco
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2005
Posts: 112 |
Synaptic Connections ... I'll leave soon, I promise ! Sinalco, the brave
<Edit//>( I think it's about 99,1415926535897932384 %) </off> |
