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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Oldskool vs Newskool
It seems that some people are stuck in a fantasy that every single tune coming on the C64, must:
1. have beats like Jeroen Tel
2. have melody like drax
3. have sounds like rob hubbard
4. be crazy inspiring like ben daglish
5. and that it has to have the smoothes baby ass 1988 bass filter
6. and so on...
so what is oldskool ?
1986 sounds ?
or 'playing it safe' ?
and what is newskool ?
be a copy of linus ?
It seems there are some persons who dont realize that HVSC has about every style of music on earth in it.
You can find old classical piano tunes, mostly people made them before hubbard religion came :D
then hubbard religion came, and everybody want to follow it, the most prominent child of hubby is jt.
although different style... its still a hubbyism...
then 20cc, what is this ? a jt religion..
rock/finnish gold....
We can mention so many.
There are founders of religion, and followers, those make up more than 80% of the composers.
And then there are the innovators, who take a risk, and do something completely new, and weird, or non standard.
Ed, Goto80, Mermaid... that sort of thing..
So, to the point, and ofcourse it is about my latest sid upload :D what else would it be about ? :D
Well, i can claim to call it newskool, because of the fact, it does not follow any of the religions i just mentioned.
You dear listener, should not expect every single tune, to be a melodic, progressive, manio depressive gut wrenching tune comparable to the depths of drax's mind.
You are in error.
There is more than just drax'ism :D
Specifically i would call my tune 'industrial techno', its the closest i can come to some kinda description. and as such, it is extremely well in its own class.
As a 'standard' C64 style tune, based on the religions mentioned, it is ofcourse completely off.
To the final point:
I appreciate your comments whatever they are, but when you f.ex write: there isnt much progression, or i would wish there was more melody, then dear listener, you have misunderstood it: industrial techno has no progressive melodic element :D
What is oldskool : when you follow the traditions
what is newskool : when you dont
That is all.
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Ok.
Next time, we wont try to elaborate our opinions.
We will just say "The tune sucks ass, because .. i dont like it".
Quoting JanJanand as such, it is extremely well in its own class.
Oh for christ's sake, come on.
Every one is extremely well "in his own class" because, by definition, he's the only one is his class. In that thinking, even Fredrik is "extremely well" .. in "his own class".
Sorry for being direct, but i couldnt resist.
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
Quote: Ok.
Next time, we wont try to elaborate our opinions.
We will just say "The tune sucks ass, because .. i dont like it".
Quoting JanJanand as such, it is extremely well in its own class.
Oh for christ's sake, come on.
Every one is extremely well "in his own class" because, by definition, he's the only one is his class. In that thinking, even Fredrik is "extremely well" .. in "his own class".
Sorry for being direct, but i couldnt resist.
Hmm, but i actually agree in your last sentence.
when you are presented something, it can also be a demo or a picture, enjoy it on its own terms.
thats really all i was trying to say. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
What i was trying to say is, just because you choose to put something "in its own class" it does not by default make it extremely good. But that might be just my thinking ..
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11386 |
why is it that everytime some doesnt like one of rambones releases, the result is: whine whine whine whine whine whine whine ? o_O
oh and, this has exactly nothing to do with oldschool vs newschool either. it has to do with interesting vs boring. thats all. |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Even techno actually *does* have progressions :) If you have a listen to e.g. R/Raveguru/ASSID.sid (a different genre, I know, but that is not the point!) you´ll probably notice a great suspense curve that entertains throughout the whole duration of the track. That is why that particular tune works well while yours doesn´t (in my humble ears at least).
I didn´t say your track is bad and really tried to communicate contructive feedback. If you think it´s an awesome track, well ... great, that is what really counts. I won´t argue about that, tastes obviously differ. Beautiful, isn´t it?
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
/me silently spells "pathetic" to himself... |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
It has nothing to do with oldschool vs newschool - it is a matter of taste... Besides it is not about making music in a specific style in order to get respect - it's about making the music that fits your personality... Taste is very subjective and for me a emotional experience... Besides not all like JT, hubbard and even my music... So what - that's life... I still think my "The Walker" is cool and funky no matter what people says ;) ... I fully understand what they mean when the critique but I am me and I am making the music that I like... In the end you have to like the stuff you do yourself... If other people likes it - it's just a bonus ;) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
thomas, man, you're in MON. you dont have to justify your tunes. really .-) |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
I am not trying to justify myself - just making a point... I guess the message is: "The most important thing is that you like music you make, Jan!" |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
It is about LOVE... I have my fav artist in the computer music scene and in the real life artists scene... I would never had said to The rolling Stones that, hey you sound like you... cant you do something else? Listen a bit to this and this, it is cooler! I would not say to Bruce springsteen that you suck, because Kurt Cobain were so much cooler... If I meent that I would simply just get the album I liked the most, I would not debate it with all the bands I did not buy an album from... If I had done that I would probably have been quite lame!
Your PAL |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
good point, Pal ;) |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
order in chaos, psychoacoustics |
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booker
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 334 |
What Drax and Jeff said. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Really, degrading JT to a Hubbard follower, 20CC as a JT follower doesn't do it justice. Not at all. There may be an influence, but reducing the whole person to the 5% influence and neglecting the 95% of uniqueness is just ridiculous.
I've never seen it like this, but maybe it's because I'm NOT trying to put everything into little drawers with labels on it. Like you seem to, Jan. |
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SIDWAVE
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 2238 |
fixing algorithm bugs.... |
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Dane
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 423 |
It seems that some people are stuck in a fantasy that every single tune composed on the C64 is worth listening to. |
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DRAX
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 225 |
Good point you have there, Stellan... Also true what you say Stephan about of just reducing composers' uniqueness - actually that is what gives me a bad feeling sometimes - when someone says this is so JTish for instance - it's like the perspective is only on what it is similar to and not to how it is different from - thereby the uniqueness of the composer is devalued... It's almost the same as saying there is nothing special about you - you're just copy - and that doesn't feel right... I far from like all the music being composed but I always (almost always) appreciate the effort... |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Next we'll hear Ed copies his sounds from broken code.
Does it really matter? Listen to what you like. People also learn a lot by trying to copy something similar to what they have heard from others. Sometimes things are discovered by accident.
Once people get a reputation some fans will not want the artist to change the sound. I wish I had the ability to imitate people. I fail so I have to make do with what I can. |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
It is kinda funny how people constantly equate the work of Ed with "everything that is odd", or something like that.
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
+1 |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I agree with the statement that there has to be more merit behind experimental track than just experiment itself. One of my favs, Zyron's "What The...?" is a great example of that. Besides from being experimental, it is highly enjoyable. Still, it's all subjective, I guess.
I always considered myself as being part of the newschool movement, now I start questioning if my tracks were ever experimental enough ;) |
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pvcf
Registered: Feb 2005
Posts: 18 |
maybe we all (musicians) have to learn the second thing (after composing): take different opinions about our music from different listeners. especially if the rating of the last track isn't what the musician has expected.
for me,back in time, it was a very hard lession, (and i hope for other beginners aswell ;) ).
even now, after 18 years of composing i'm a little bit frustrated if a new track doesn't fit the expactations of the listener. but heh, thats life! and what the fuck: every new song CAN NOT BE a super duper 10/10 points award winning track which beats all previuos one's.
@jan
oldshool vs newschool:
it really depends on the mood, sometimes i like to hear rob hubbards stuff, sometimes some linus stuff. its a matter of taste, a matter of time, and, what you have written under your tune: a matter of alcohol ;)
for me for instance: i have listened your tune for about 3 minutes,(without alcohol;) (i hoped there will be a break with some melodic stuff;) and i really liked the sounds, especially drumms, snare and the ringmod-echo-effects). |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
@PVCF: so damn true!! The biggest lesson in humility IMHO is trying to expand from SID into the world of so called "real" music. You get your ambitions slapped around a few times, you learn to keep a healthy distance to things ;) |
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
Since i work in the real music industry i have a bit perspective from that side. And have to agree with PVCF on that not every song is a great song. I have known bands and artists writing around 75 songs to make a new record and eventually only finding 2 or 3 good enough. I know metallica (not a fan anymore, but they are a good example) writes around 50 songs per album orso...
Not everything some makes is awesome. I have made good gfx and horrible gfx. And i love Jan's songs, but certainly not all of them.... |
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null
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2006
Posts: 645 |
How about this:
Everyone has a different taste and opinion about music, so instead of whining about it let's all stfu and enjoy/create music.
</thread>
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http://zomgwtfbbq.info |
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Yazoo
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 227 |
yea, its a matter of taste... i voted you a 3 on your latest tune because for me it almost totally sucks, but a 9 for your datastorm tune because it ruled for me. i always try to be honest when voting... keep experimenting, but dont be pissed when ppl sometimes dont like what comes out of it. you know... when ppl downvote my pictures its np as long i like the pic myself. i am not a musician, so i dont care if something is technically well done or whatever. i just love music when it "hits" me... and sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. |
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Ksubi
Account closed
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 87 |
There's always a risk of rejection when we expose our "art" to the public. Art is such a subjective / personal experience that rarely 2 people see/hear/feel the same thing. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
There are many good points in this thread.
New school vs old-school - there is no clear definition for that I guess. Maybe, you say 'wow that's old-school sounding' when you hear something that reminds you of the times when SID composing was not about using a "holy grail" editor. The holy grail was the musician and his knowledge of C64 back in the times when everything needed to be invented. Even though methods were raw and imperfect, every and each music driver had personality. The spreading of first really effective editors put an end to that period of time. Perhaps, new school started with Chris Hülsbeck and Charles Deenen. Their editors were among the firsts that opened the eyes of the public for SID composing.
+/- feedback... awww :)
It is nice to hear anyone's any opinion but shall never be considered or taken too deep. Considering opinions separates product from art.
Contemporaty SID music is art, a total free and underground one. So, do it your way and never look back, end of story :) |
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Danko
Registered: Nov 2002
Posts: 19 |
The reason howcome most of my old SIDs suck (besides me being short of a toddler at the time of creation), is that I just played around with sounds and shit for my own well being following my own ideas and thoughts. How's that for old skool focus?
I figure my own conceptions that were not blatant attempts to mimic Hubbard, Galway or Bogg were probably a tad bit better than the ones that were.
You can either place me in the "old skool" compartment or, god forbid, that dreadful "Danko" compartment.
Well, then there's that 15 minute experiment called "Plasticpop". It was an over obvious attempt to mimic and ridicule that contemporary Drax style for the fun of it. Just look at what happened many years later...
But I digress.
Oldskool to me?
Action Biker by Rob Hubbard.
Cheers,
Danko |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Oldschool as Danko said is among the tunes of Rob Hubbard (Phantom of the Asteroids, International Karate ..)
Newschool still is to me guys like JT and Drax etc :-D
And who's this Linus you keep talking about ?
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
That guy you keep on sending worktunes to so he can provide you with tips on how to improve them. |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Yeah, some people think that every tune they do is AMAZING!
But it's really not like that at all...
I aim at doing music that is not annoying to listen and sometimes I manage to do something that I am quite pleased with.
For me sounds and how they are handled is quite important.
Forexample some people can make nice melodies and some just make something that I barely can stand listening to.
Sorry, but that's how it is.
I don't have much music theory knowledge, but just use my ears.
False notes are also totally unacceptable for me...
it's like.. "forget about it"... :-) |
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Soren
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 547 |
Also, some people are stuck in fantasy that nomatter what they do, it's OH SO DAMN GOOD! :-) |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder. Or in this case, the ear of the composer.
And it can take years to train a good set of ears. |
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Stainless Steel
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 966 |
Quoting LinußThat guy you keep on sending worktunes to so he can provide you with tips on how to improve them. With very little achievement so far, it seems. |
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Pantaloon
Registered: Aug 2003
Posts: 124 |
and Danko, while you have free time sitting in the hotel room in London and writing on Csdb, start a new sid for the next demo :) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I have almost exactly the same approach as Jeff described - focus on sounds etc. :)
One exception - "making tunes that are not annoying" ;) My personal aim is to make music that I am satisfied with and fits my taste, sometimes at the price of the above mentioned ;) |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Quote: Quoting LinußThat guy you keep on sending worktunes to so he can provide you with tips on how to improve them. With very little achievement so far, it seems.
Indeed.
What Wackee said. |
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Kristian
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 126 |
Quoting wackeeI have almost exactly the same approach as Jeff described - focus on sounds etc. :)
For me it was always the total oposite. I was never any good at making instruments. I would rather focus on melodies and try to make it sound somewhat decent despite the lousy instruments. |
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NecroPolo
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 231 |
Good points considering inspiration and initial drive of different attitudes. Folks, it is really interesting to read your lines about your attitudes and associate with your SIDs. It really makes a sense.
For me, it is separated. If the music is connected to a certain release/product, it is most important to be coherent, a unit of the other parts/aspects. If melodic fits - be so, if SID bloodshed fits - be so. That is true for all the band stuff, too. "Performance" type of thing.
If I do music just for myself, it will be something that reflects an actual mood so most likely it will be something that I'd wish to listen to at the moment. "Jamming" type of thing. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
I think a good tune is based on a good melody... without any melody it is just sound is it not? I wonder what the beatles would have been without their wonderful melodys? Just another wall of sound probably... |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
How about a new craze... write a tune that sounds like it's playing backwards! I don't think anyone's done THAT before. It can be done.... swap AD ans SR values around (with some care), reverse wave table data, and turn your monitor upside down when tracking. |
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Radiant
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 639 |
For me a good tune is a play on either rhythm and melody or just rhythm (some industrial stuff). I have a very hard time appreciating music without any rhythm or melody at all, like Merzbow. I also enjoy "brain music" with weird time signatures, atonal scales and the like - gives me something to chew on. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Quoting Kristian RostoenI would rather focus on melodies
Because you are so good in that! Since I am melodically much weaker, I strive to push sounds as far as I can go, using it together with simpler melodies to build weird atmospheres.
Quoting PALI think a good tune is based on a good melody... without any melody it is just sound is it not?
If by "any melody" you mean playing at least 2 different notes then most probably yes, you need "any melody" (but on the other hand, there is for example an incredible Plastikman track build almost exclusively on snare sounds, which means no melody :D)
Quoting Conradwrite a tune that sounds like it's playing backwards! I don't think anyone's done THAT before.
I do have one unfinished tune that has such sound :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
*Musicians* talking about SID music... the scene must be dead already.
(couldn't resist ;-)
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Hate Bush
Registered: Jul 2002
Posts: 465 |
i tried some sort of a backward thing too, although not completely, the beat was rather standard. to go all the way - cool idea, try that, eagerly awaiting results :) |
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Stone
Registered: Oct 2006
Posts: 172 |
I had an idea for a demo part where the music AND graphics (scrollers etc) would start out moving backwards and then slowing down to a standstill and finally reversing direction. Could be really cool if everything "made sense" playing both ways. I Never got to it though.. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Quote: I had an idea for a demo part where the music AND graphics (scrollers etc) would start out moving backwards and then slowing down to a standstill and finally reversing direction. Could be really cool if everything "made sense" playing both ways. I Never got to it though..
See Ruecktro |
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Linus
Registered: Jun 2004
Posts: 639 |
Did anybody mention t3h awesome rewind effect in BluREU yet? |
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psych
Registered: Aug 2004
Posts: 141 |
Once again Linus is trying to get some attention :)
BTW nicely done Sascha :) |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Two notes melody, hm, John Williams (JAWS). That is what we call a genius. A talent not to be found in C64 music, though. |
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PAL
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 292 |
geir... create some tune instead of being an arse all the time... tjihi.... ho ho.... he he... LOL |
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GT
Account closed
Registered: Sep 2008
Posts: 308 |
Quote: geir... create some tune instead of being an arse all the time... tjihi.... ho ho.... he he... LOL
I'm not behaving like an arse, just being realistic, and telling the very truth. :) |
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Perplex
Registered: Feb 2009
Posts: 255 |
Telling the truth is the very definition of being an arse, Geir. |
