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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Locked Entries
I'm not sure if this is a bug, or a design flaw =) ...
When I lock a group, others can still add members to it.
Shouldn't it be possible to prevent others from adding anything to that group, be it members or releases or anything else?
Also, it would be useful to lock the releases of a group _with_ the group so I won't have to go through all the releases and set the maintainer? |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Well, about the real personnal facts of the group other people can't change this! But why should other people (when they add a scener) have no right to add a new group to this scener? So, I would say that Perff keeps this system like it is : it is perfect!!!!
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Seven, is there someone who puts your (locked) group to a scener who you think he hasn't been in that group...?
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
When I checked the Trans-X group entry today, someone added a scener called 'Myth' to it...
As I can be pretty certain that there never was a guy called 'Myth' in that particular group called 'Trans-X', I kicked that scener out of the group entry again. In fact, that particular Trans-X entry is complete when members is concerned.
The same goes for the Divine Deflection entry and the Calyx - I should know that.
So I just don't want anyone to add any (wrong) info to it just because some magazine editor fucked up in the past or someone read a scrolltext wrong.
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Well, you're right. But mistakes can always happen (many groupnames have been used more times and also many sceners have been using the same handles), but I still think that this kind of system is still the best : everything is integrated! If you can block something completely, then there's no integration anymore. But if there's a mistake, you can always change that so it is no real big deal. If someone adds something wrong to my group, then I simply scratch it again (it is no big deal) and the person (who added the wrong info) knows that there could be something wrong or he can discuss it with the person who scratched it (in the comments-area!).
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Seven : News on disk #2 !
I changed something there : I removed Avenger. Avenger of Role has never done something to this. I think that another Avenger was meant. I know that there was also an Avenger in The Netherlands, maybe it was him???
Avenger/Role only made paper-design.
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Commander: thanks, I'm pretty sure though that _I_ did not add Avenger/Role to the credits of News on Disk #2 ...
There we go again, people are adding stuff they have no idea about... the "correct" Avenger is a german guy, I even met him a couple of times, and I _think_ he later changed his handle to Chris, but as I'm not 100% sure about this I didn't add that to his entry...
And yes, maybe it is possible for you to check your groups entry and all the productions every week or something like that, but I neither have the time to do that nor do I _want_ to do that...
I agree that the general idea of this is to have many people collaborate on getting a huge database done, but some things just _are_ complete in a way or another, and having people with no clue adding wrong info does _NOT_ help the database in _ANY_ way...
example 1: Moskwa TV, a guy who's known for putting his own entry in front of everything, claiming to have cracked, imported and whatever, in fact was nothing but a high profile swapper with a way too big ego...
people who don't know about this might very well add e.g. cracks of "Roger Rabbit" to the group The Law-Breakers with Moskwa TV credited to cracking or importing...
wouldn't that be just wrong?
example 2: Kokomo was a fake-label of Digital Excess, the two games we released under that label were credited to Thomas and Arndt's girlfriends at that time...
someone with no clue might just delete Thomas and Arndt's credits to these games and instead add two girls because he read that names in the game itself...
wouldn't that be just wrong?
Hope I got my point across now =)
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
You are right! But you will have always these kind of problems because many fake-things happened in the scene where maybe even you don't know about. An I think : better a little informed as not informed. Also think about this : many people are also helping you and me with changing the info or mistakes, so you don't have to do it only on your own. Anyway, I understand your point, but I also hope you will trust more people to help you out. Locking too much isn't the solution because then some info will be kept uncomplete : I have seen already many locked groups which doesn't contain all the right information but I can't change/add it because it is locked (and some things can only be changed in the groups-corner). So it always stay a bit of a problem. We are all humans and humans make mistakes. That's why many of us are here to check all info out!!!
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
Sure, but...
people should concentrate on adding new stuff and keep their hands off the group that someone knows more about, that's what the locking thing was done for in the first place...
I can add all the available info for my own group and own releases.. it might not be done all at once and I might add additional info at a later day, but it will be done...
for other groups, this is not the case.. and if you want to help out, find info on _those_ groups...
seriously (and this is not ment to be a personal insult, but this needs to be said), I don't see why someone copies info on my groups releases from my _own fuckin' webpage into this database when he _knows_ that I'm around here and will eventually add the available info myself...
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
When is someone sure about someone else knowing better about a certain group...? Not everybody checks out it if there's someone of a certain group already updating it or not!
I still think that it is making trouble for nothing, but okay, it's everybody's own choice and reason.
Anyway, I try not to cross your way concerning your group(s). Here at my place I have a big storage of c64-information which I now try to add to this great database.
I hope that later every (ex-) scener can find all what he has to know!
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Seven is damn right.... i have just corrected a LOT of wrong "info" that i infact already entered correctly some time before. Just like Seven, i DONT have the time to check all this shit daily, nor am i willing to do so. _I_ know what to add to the info of my group, and i dont have the slightest idea why some other guys think they know better. bah. LAMERS!
i request a feature that displays who made last changes on (whatever) entry in the database so i can kick his sorry ass next time he fucks it up.
pissed,
/gpz |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Yep.. the people who made changes should be publicly known.. there should be some log for registered users, so even this kind of problems could be regulated by registered users. Main Staff of CSDb simply can't do all the work, it would take too much time to watch everything. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Bah.. to make my last words more clear: make the changelog visible for registered users. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Who cares *WHO* changed it? Is this some kind of "find a person to blame, and kick his muthaphukkin ass" kind of thing? Goddamn, you're lame. We're trying to make this database 100%, and all you care about is blaming people for adding stuff. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
CyberBrain:
This is not about blaiming people for adding stuff, it's about blaiming people for fucking stuff up...
I'm pretty sure even you will agree that the goal is to get this database filled with correct info, not just _any_ info...
and while we are still talking about it... would you kindly delete the production comments you added to the Digital Excess productions by copying right off our webpage? I can add these info in a more suitable manner myself... thanks |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Yes, ofcause the goal is to get correct info, and not just any info. I see your point, that it is annoying that random stuff gets added to your group.
I was reacting to you guys "fuck everybody else"-approach. You must understand that there is bound to happen mistakes (allthough it sucks), unless people only add info on them selves. If there are a diskmag with wrong info, a website with wrong info, a ftp-site with wrong info (etc etc), and someone wants to contribute to CSDb and types in the info from these places, it will go wrong. But, not because of the person fucking up, but b'coz of da wrong info. This will happen, and don't blame the person for that - it could happen for everybody. (ofcause people deliberately adding fucked stuff should be blamed) (+ "human" = "lifeform that makes mistakes")
But if the record was 100% locked that prob would'nt be there, ofcause. But, i guess it is possible that some people knows something about digital excess that even you don't, but mostly it's ofcause not the case. Maybe there could be made a system where the maintainer should accept changes other people want to add, before they get added (or the other way around, decline the changes)? And (maybe) if the maintainer hasn't accepted/declined after f.e. 2 weeks it gets added (to prevent that the maintainers has gone dead).
>and while we are still talking about it... would you kindly
>delete the production comments you added to the Digital
>Excess productions by copying right off our webpage? I can
>add these info in a more suitable manner myself... thanks
Ok, Se7en, it sounds like you're pissed off because i added the releases/screenshots/trivia from *YOUR* web-site to CSDb. If you are: I guess your website doesn't have wrong information, so i did not add wrong info. Also, how da fuk was i gonna know that you were gonna add them a month later? I don't want to ask the groups, if it is okay to add their stuff before i do it. Then CSDb will never get anywhere. (AND, there is nothing wrong with taking information from websites. How can you say that!?!)
(if you were not pissed: sorry :) )
Yeah ok, i'll delete the trivia to the productions of your group (please understand i added them to preserve C64-history (which you're a part of), not to piss you off). Hope you add some better ones then. (*please* do, cause it's better to have short ones, than to have none)
ARGH, sorry for long text. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
this is NOT "fuck everybody else", this isn't even about who's to blame.. at least not when I started this topic...
this is about the - in my eyes - insufficient way the entries are locked in the database
if I find the time I will go through some of the things I added in the past and put the lock on every single item that I think noone has business in editing, but that still doesn't protect things a 100% .. like in the example with the added member to Trans-X _although_ the group was locked...
as for the webpage thing... I do understand this is about preserving things and getting them all into one place, which is a good thing, but in _my_ eyes adding things that are already present on a more or less well-sorted webpage of the group itself should _not_ be the priority of things to add.. that's why there's the possibility to add a group's webpage to the group entry, so people, who are interested, can check things out on their own.. in a way that the group ment it to be presented...
I'm sure this database is not ment to make group webpages obsolete, but first of all to collect data that's hard to find, or collecting dust on those millions of 5 1/4 disks C64 sceners collected...
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
just to add something, remember, this is a beta version, it is not finsished yet, and the coders still have an inmense task of changing things to this.. nobody wants mistakes, but shit happens.. damn, why is everybody always whining when something nice happens.. |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
about not adding trivia to things allready on the net:
Well, it is ofcause not the *top* priority, but it still should be a priority to gather as much information about the releases as possible in one place - in CSDb. (+ the user doesn't have to browse through 1000 webpages)
(it would also be kind a' wrong, i think, to not add screenshots, credits or download-links (etc) just because they're allready on a website.)
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
celtic: yes, I'm very aware of the fact that this is still beta, and when you check my original posting to this topic, you will probably notice, that this started as a suggestion to improve the database...
CyberBrain: yes, it should be priority to add as much data as possible, but again... the goal of CSDb should _not_ be to make group webpages obsolete... some people spent quite some time gathering info on their own group, building up their own webpage to preserve the things about their own particular group and make it available to public... by simply copying the data from their pages so that (quote on) the user doesn't have to browse through 1000 webpages (quote off) you not only saved yourself the trouble of digging deeper into the disk boxes and the scene, you also discourage building group webpages ... when people get all the info on CSDb anyway, why should I even bother updating my own site?
give it a thought... I still think CSDb is a good idea, but when it's all about copying from already existing sources on the web instead of preserving data that so far lies dormant on C64 disks, I might very well change my mind about how good this idea really is...
P.S.: I'm posting this under a new topic aswell since the way this discussion turns hardly has anything to do with the original topic anymore... so if you want to reply to this, please do so under the new topic... thanks |
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CyberBrain
Administrator
Posts: 392 |
Yes back to the topic. Should locked entries be 100% locked or as it is now, or somewhere inbetween. |
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
I'd say 100%, except for user comments, of course...
everything less is as good as not locking at all...
maybe there could be a two-level lock, first level just locks the group/scener/production entry itself, second level locks it completely, also preventing others from adding members, credits and alike... |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I like that idea.
Perhaps adding a checkbox to the edit page with which the maintainers then can choose is it's possible to add credits/memberships etc. to this entry?
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
1. How about if maintainer of the locked entry was set as a person who will confirm/deny additional changes by the other people. He could be informed about the new additions throught E-mail.
And as far as changelog is conerned. By making it visible for registered users you will make the database editing more transparent. It's not a question of blaming anyone for adding stuff to database, it's more about letting users to keep an eye over the quality of the databse. For instance, I've changed Ben Daglish entry to BIMBAS as it had his data under his name, then someone changed it back, so I've changed Ben Daglish's country from Slovakia to England. If there were more users knowing that this happened, for sure someone could notice where is the problem and either send me to hell or correct my mistake. But now the whole thing dependeds on the admin of the site, who can't know everything about everyone so how he will decide about whether to leave changes or reject back to older data.
Cyber, that visible changelog was just a suggestion, you don't have to accept it, but overreacting won't help you you to persuade anyone about your opinion. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
CyberBrain is right about everything. If we go on with reacting like Seven then this database has no meaning anymore. If some people go on with this kind of reactions, then I even don't support it anymore. I liked the system like it is lately. With that locking-thing there are so many aggressive reactions. We in the scene need to be friends, but the reactions I see in these forum makes more enemies then friends.
When I see that Seven didn't like the adding of info from CyberBrain, then I ask myself if it is still something to support because then some people are driving it too far.
Some people should be lucky if other people add info before they do, so things go faster in this database!!!!
If the locking-thing is getting too far, I quit the support; I mean that. I thought this all was meant as a database (with support) and brought us scene people as friends together. But this is no friendship, why do we have to act so aggressive???
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Celtic
Administrator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 807 |
commander... seven is not reacting agresively. he is just trying to start a discussion how to make it better, in fact i think he is doing a great job by giving the danish nonamers ideas to perfect and improve this database... i just say thumbs up to seven. he is actually being involved in it.. and it is good to see that.
the database is for everyone... and therefor eventually it should contain everything.. including information on other webpages. but i do not think it will make other pages obsolete, coz f.e. the digital excess page is something someone should check out because it is a nice and cool page...
maybe we should be able to vote on cool webpages?? |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
A really nice discussion if you read everything above...
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
I'm not sure if I'm agressive, but if so, it's not because of the database, but because some people just don't get the point...
what world is it you live in where all sceners are friends? we had wars between sceners and groups in the good old days, and even today some people can't stand each other, so get real...
but back to the topic.... the Locked Entries suggestion I did make was not to keep other people from adding things to the database, but to ensure a certain level of correctness...
there IS a locking feature, and it has been around for quite a while, I'm sure you all are aware of that, and it's a good thing, and it should stay, noone argued that so far...
I just want to ensure, that the data added to the database is as correct as possible, so if someone is/was the founder/organizer or whatever of a group and should know best about what went on in that group, who joined and what productions they got out, it should be left to him to add these things, if he's willing to....
and if he's willing to add all that, let him lock the whole thing so others won't add wrong data to the group... and I'm glad Perff is going along with that idea...
yes, a checkbox would be nice, I also like CreamD's suggestion about the confirmation of data others added to a group... this way people can add stuff if they think they have to, and the maintainer can still have control over what is shown...
and once more back to commander: I explained to CyberBrain in private message why I'd prefer him to delete the data he copied from the webpage, because I didn't think it'd be of anyone's interest, but since you go on being pissy about things, here's to you...
the info on our webpage is far from complete and might change in the future as soon as I find the time to rewrite things and talk to the other persons involved... with CyberBrain copying the (incomplete) texts from our webpages and adding it to CSDb I'd have to notify him of every single change so the data on CSDb can be corrected/completed, since he'd be the only one able to change his own comment entry...
in addition to that, he copied both, the abreviated text from our production index page aswell as the longer text from the detail page into one comment, which results in duplicate info and hardly made any sense...
I can't tell anyone not to comment on our productions, but my own comment should be my own, and not added by someone else, so that I can edit and change as _I_ see fit...
leaving my own texts for me to edit is a way of showing respect and being polite, dear commander...
CyberBrain understood that and was kind enough to act accordingly... so why can't _you_ understand that? |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
"what world is it you live in where all sceners are friends? we had wars between sceners and groups in the good old days, and even today some people can't stand each other, so get real..."
This inspired me to suggest a "wannabe improvement idea" for such purposes ;-)
The option:
"I know this scener, and I would like to add (nasty) comment on him"
;-)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
creamd, you know what? FICKEN! :o) |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Seven, I understand you very well! I only hope that this database won't become a database for the so-called elite only... And it is my opinion : if there is going to be too much locking, then this database won't last long.
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Seven
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 202 |
I agree, it makes no sense if someone locks everything he adds.
Locking should only be done by people who have a definite grasp on what was/is going on in a group, e.g. people lock their personal entry, group members/leaders lock their own group etc.
Why would I set myself as maintainer for e.g. the Smash Design entry (other than to show them how much I like them ;))?
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
My two cents to commander:
You're clearly underestimating the human factor here, with this mass of contributors this database is prone to have lots of errors. The point is not to add information _fast_ but to do it correctly!
I'd therefore als prefer the idea of the maintainer getting notified by e-mail if there was a change to his locked entry in order for him to aprove it. This would make _fast_ adding possible and at the same time ensure correctness. I don't consider the people discussing here to be *too* representative for the whole scene, there might be a lot of lazy MFs out there that just come here only once, add their group, lock it and forget about it for the rest of the year. Does anyone agree on that eventually?
So:
Complete Locking: No, unless the person wishing to completely lock the entry gets approved by the database maintainers and clearly states that the entry is finished, i.e. all the members/credits/releases are complete.
E-Mail Notification to aprove changes _before_ they apply: Yes, if that is practicable and wouldn't be too much of a burden for the NoName guys, that means the notication task can be automated by the database. |
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Commander
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 106 |
Nice idea, Steppe!
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I see the need for some changes in the way the maintainer thing works.
I've read what you have to say and have some comments.
It's very easy to notify either by email or the CSDb msg system the maintainers of a record when something is changes, but to make it so that the maintainers need to confirm the change before it is made for real is not so easy.
My sugestion is that people edit like they do now, and then the maintainers can go back and change back if someone make some crap.
Maintainers can then also choose to lock an entry 100% or keep it open (with notifications on edits)
If someone wan't something chaned in a 100% locked entry they should contact the maintainers of that record.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Sounds reasonable to me.
roman |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
I've locked entries for groups I was never a member of - why? Because I'm one of the only guys entering NTSC (mainly demo group) information. From experience most PAL sceners didn't/don't have a clue about the former NTSC demo scene and I don't want people screwing with information I know is correct.
I was a staff member on nearly every NTSC demo magazine and friends (I use that term loosely - Seven is correct about the attitude issues in the scene) with nearly everyone ever active. Plus, as people that know me can attest, I was a major group hopper - changing groups every couple of months.
I agree with some of the ideas here - the maintainer should have final say and an email system of sorts should be included for information entered by a non-maintainer.
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