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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
"BBS Graphics"
So, apparently BBS Graphics is different to PETSCII in that only a portion of the PETSCII charset is used.
However... why is BBS Graphics a "release type"? Every other graphic format is classed as "C64 Graphics" and with a subtype specifying the format (multicolour, hires, PETSCII, FLI, MC+sprites, etc).
Shouldn't BBS Graphics follow the same pattern? It could be a simple change - there are currently on 96 BBS Graphics releases. I suspect that several of those aren't BBS Graphics at all, actually. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
I am already discussing this with the other mods. :)
Right now, I think you are absolutely right. First of all, BBS gfx would be lower case only and d021 black, right? Secondly, our best guess is that BBS Graphics as a release type was meant to archive BBS graphics which are not C64 executables, but which are in some (proprietary) format for BBS software, and rendered by the terminal program on the fly when visiting the BBS. But that is a best guess right now. We have pinged Perff to see what he can remember about introducing that category.
If the second guess is right, I wonder if we actually have even a single BBS gfx entry that is correct. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Quote:First of all, BBS gfx would be lower case only and d021 black, right?
It's whatever you can produce by feeding data to CHROUT (or PRINT if you like) - so changing case is no problem. "Only lowercase" is mostly a convention made up by Sysops, as switching case looks ugly with inline gfx - but its entirely possible and was used too. The only practical difference to "PETSCII" is that the background is always black.
Quote:but which are in some (proprietary) format for BBS software
not proprietary at all - they are saved as SEQ files containing the raw bytes that are feed to CHROUT.
Quote:We have pinged Perff to see what he can remember about introducing that category.
The same kind of thoughts that went into "Fullscreen Graphician"? |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
As it is a derivative of "PETSCII", shouldn't "BBS GRAPHICS" be removed entirely? |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Quote: As it is a derivative of "PETSCII", shouldn't "BBS GRAPHICS" be removed entirely?
That is what we are discussing. :) Or to keep it for SEQ files from actual BBS:s? But still sorted under C64 gfx in that case. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
How is it different from many other release types though? Half of them are derivatives from others and shouldn't be there in the first place in exactly the same way :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
So just to tell you one thing that I planned for C64GFXDb … since I’m grabbing all the screens from releases, I can do some automatic analysis on them… to determine hopefully more information about the type of graphics… hires and MC bitmaps are the easiest. Those with VIC trickery are harder - though maybe FLI and such will be detectable.. PETSCII and BBS could also in theory be detected.. if BBS is useful… but looking at the BBS releases, some are clearly not BBS at all.
I can use what I’m doing with my database to feed back to CSDb to get the entries here fixed up (might need admin help as annoyingly many releases are locked).
Could also be useful to generate a list of the CSDb screenshots and to highlight which don’t have borders and shit - even going as far as to add, expand or contract borders on screenshots where possible (I want to do that for my site anyway - so it’s just a matter of passing those shots back to CSDb at some point). |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1044 |
Quote: That is what we are discussing. :) Or to keep it for SEQ files from actual BBS:s? But still sorted under C64 gfx in that case.
Yeah, don't see any value in keeping "BBS Graphics", seq files can also be log files taken from CCGMS and the like and would more fall under "Misc." - focusing on modes, this is all under text mode and should be covered simply by PETSCII. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
There are only 89 entries marked as "BBS Graphics" so it would be an easy job to change them. |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Quote: So just to tell you one thing that I planned for C64GFXDb … since I’m grabbing all the screens from releases, I can do some automatic analysis on them… to determine hopefully more information about the type of graphics… hires and MC bitmaps are the easiest. Those with VIC trickery are harder - though maybe FLI and such will be detectable.. PETSCII and BBS could also in theory be detected.. if BBS is useful… but looking at the BBS releases, some are clearly not BBS at all.
I can use what I’m doing with my database to feed back to CSDb to get the entries here fixed up (might need admin help as annoyingly many releases are locked).
Could also be useful to generate a list of the CSDb screenshots and to highlight which don’t have borders and shit - even going as far as to add, expand or contract borders on screenshots where possible (I want to do that for my site anyway - so it’s just a matter of passing those shots back to CSDb at some point).
If you find a screenshot without borders, always update them. |
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macx
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 255 |
Keep in mind that "bbs graphics" can shift between lower- and uppercase on the fly while beeing shown - e.g. the big opening screen by Skyhawk on my board. This is something which is "programmed into" the graphics similarly to animations.
Boar's Head Tavern | byob.hopto.org:64128 |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: There are only 89 entries marked as "BBS Graphics" so it would be an easy job to change them.
There was 94 or 96 of them when I started the thread so someone’s already updated some. |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: If you find a screenshot without borders, always update them.
I just worry about getting shouted at for using the wrong palette… Pepto? Colodore? Which do we use..? I assume the mods’ rule will be: “anything goes if some f***er uploads a screenshot without borders!”?
I don’t want to talk about IFLI screenshots - that’s a whole hornets nest for another thread :-) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Still beats me why csdb doesn't run a cronjob that would just convert all screenshots to a common palette. Or even check it at upload and complain if wrong. But what do i know :) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: Still beats me why csdb doesn't run a cronjob that would just convert all screenshots to a common palette. Or even check it at upload and complain if wrong. But what do i know :)
Some of the interlace screenshots include more than 16 colours I believe… which is what bothers me. The screenshots in those cases aren’t screenshots at all, they’re imaginary depictions of what the artist believes the picture looks like - as though there’s no flickeriness, as though interlace magically makes 1x1 pixels out of MC images, etc etc.
But as I say, that’s a rant for another day ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Those "merged Screenshots" are just a terrible idea indeed. Just click delete on them and have whoever produce an anigif instead (for many gfx releases also this could be automatic) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1098 |
Quoting RaistlinSome of the interlace screenshots include more than 16 colours I believe…
we discussed this on irc recently when we were discussing mc interlace support in png2prg. cjam hacked a quick python tool together to reduce a dirty >16 color screenshot to 16 colors.
https://github.com/staD020/png2prg/tree/master/testdata/madonna |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Ohhhhh, very nice! I shall check this out … the dithering looks very nice on the final pic. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
That's even less of a C64 picture though :=) |
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TheRyk
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 2242 |
Though this Fred wandered from GFX CATEGORY to Screenshots (off topic alert), I still wonder which of the images in Burg's git is supposed to be the output / 'role model'?
Personally, of course I see the point in getting rid of 'merged' screenshots pretending sth which is simply never to be seen as such on a real CRT like
or any other IFLI/other fancy Interlace modes and many of their screenshots in the database...
But Quoting 'Raistline'But as I say, that’s a rant for another day ;)
BTT
Quoting 'ChatGPZ'If you can print it, it's PETSCII
see: Plain PETSCII Graphics Competition 2013
worked quite well for a decade as a definition - thus, BBS ($D021 $00 and $d018 pointing at locase) would be a subcategory (BBS) of a subcategory (PETSCII) of a category (Graphics)... We're talking about <100 releases... so tbh I rather say dump BBS as category for good instead of making things more complicated than your average CSDb user (uploader) will be able to see through.
*drops da mic keys* |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
@ChatGPZ: it’s not C64 but is closer to C64 for me than blending the colours to make ones that don’t exist. So I’m not sure.. I tried with an animated GIF on my site - but that’s not great either…
@TheRyk: I think that was everyone’s consensus, to simply remove BBS Graphics - that many of the releases currently set as BBS are actually just PETSCII also demonstrates why that’s the right thing to do ;) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1098 |
Quoting TheRykI still wonder which of the images in Burg's git is supposed to be the output / 'role model'?
dirty_madonna.gif = >16 colors
cjam_pure_madonna.png = 16 colors |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Quote: Quoting TheRykI still wonder which of the images in Burg's git is supposed to be the output / 'role model'?
dirty_madonna.gif = >16 colors
cjam_pure_madonna.png = 16 colors
Wrongh thread for this discussion, Raistlin and Burglar. Continue here: C64GFXDb |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
So back to BBS Graphics. Moloch pointed me to this thread, that explains why there is a BBS Graphics category. Groepaz was involved in implementing it in 2008: Adding A BBS Section...
It was meant to support BBS entries, and was specifically for hosting c/g artwork as a supporting role to the bbs section, if I understand it correctly. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1098 |
Quoting hedningRaistlin and Burglar dont forget your fellow mod TheRyk :)
but yes, bbs graphics, thats petscii with black bg. gpz already explained the details.
I blame the implementation on gpz too :D |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: Quoting hedningRaistlin and Burglar dont forget your fellow mod TheRyk :)
but yes, bbs graphics, thats petscii with black bg. gpz already explained the details.
I blame the implementation on gpz too :D
havent there been a ping sound too that could be embeded? =)
so long time ago. not sure if i remember right. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
chr$(7) is BEL, yep :) There was another non standard one that flashes the screen (in CCGMS) too, was that chr$(9)? mmh :) |
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Peacemaker
Registered: Sep 2004
Posts: 275 |
Quote: chr$(7) is BEL, yep :) There was another non standard one that flashes the screen (in CCGMS) too, was that chr$(9)? mmh :)
yeah, you are right. there has been a screen flashing too. so yeah, some differences to "petscii" =) |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
I daren’t suggest it almost… but… BBS Graphics compo coming up? Please no… |
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hedning
Registered: Mar 2009
Posts: 4731 |
Quote: I daren’t suggest it almost… but… BBS Graphics compo coming up? Please no…
Silence! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Raistlin: Jucke is having one on WAQ, if you are interested |
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Raistlin
Registered: Mar 2007
Posts: 680 |
Quote: Raistlin: Jucke is having one on WAQ, if you are interested
What is WAQ?
Who is Jucke?
Where am I? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
yes |
