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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
Credits in user comments
Lately I've been noticing a lot of people entering credits in the user comments, or members in the trivia section of a group. Why not just enter this data the way it's meant to I wonder?
Example: http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=28712&show=review |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2381 |
I can only speak for myself here.
Usually I enter members in the trivia section of a group if I can't find any information about them at all & they aren't credited anywhere. Many groups had 10-15 members where perhaps 2-3 of them actually did something & the rest were just hanging out, I see no reason for them to be included "for real" unless they show up in a production.
When it comes to credits in the comments field I tend to use it for similar reasons. F.ex. "Cracked by Mr. Frisbee".. now who was this Mr. Frisbee? In many cases it was just some lamer changing the text in an already cracked game & we'll never see the name again, I see no reason to include him either.
Other reasons could be if something was coded by f.ex. Droid & you have no idea if it's one of the Droid's already in the database or not & you don't want to add yet another duplicate. Maybe someone else knows & can respond to your comment so it can be corrected. |
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A3
Registered: Dec 2005 Posts: 362 |
I do it pretty much for the same reason. I had no clue who this guy was. And since Mirage was locked I thought that I should atleast add the person who did the crack. |
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Dishy
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 241 |
Hey Marco,
Actually my first thought was, that you were reffering to this 1.st release by Vision, which I just added some days ago:
Ballfever:
Ballfever
You see - I´ve written some credits for Drax, Hannes Sommer and also Dr. Jones(coding) & Wave/Vision/Camelot(graphics) in my comment.
But - on purpose - i didn´t add them to the credits of the Vision crack.. I of course didn´t do it for Dr. Jones & Wave as it´s the intro, they´ve made.. But actually, I think, that I should probably have added both Drax and Hannes Sommer too???
What do you think about this case then?
*****Once A Scener - Always A Scener***** |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
Ok guys, thanks for answering - I can imagine that you only want to enter people in the database that you're sure of. On the other hand, there's already a lot of 'unknown' sceners in csdb anyway, so it wouldn't exactly make things much worse ;)
As for intro credits: sometimes I really miss them, like when Hein did that excellent Onslaught intro a few weeks back and he was only mentioned in the trivia. If somebody is a Hein fan and wanted to get his hands on everything he did, he would probably miss out on this intro, and that would be a shame.
On the other hand, I myself am creditted for a few demos just because I did an intro for other groups and they used it multiple times, and I don't really think I deserve to be in the list of creators.
Maybe there should be a level mechanism to distinguish between people who did the 'real' work (cracking, training, coding the demo etc.) and people who did secondary stuff (like coding the re-used intro) .. |
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Shake
Posts: 134 |
If you're not sure about an alias that's already in the database it's best no to add another entry... perhaps better to just ask infos in the comment/forum.
For new aliases i think it's best to add them anyway with minimal information (handle/function), that way someone can always complete the record at a different time. Someone may notice/recognize the name at group memberships and can tell a bit more about the member.
If it's added in a comment of a release it's more hidden in the database i'm affraid, until someone adds the scener a few years later, but who links that scener to the release with the comment? |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2381 |
Quote:For new aliases i think it's best to add them anyway with minimal information (handle/function), that way someone can always complete the record at a different time. Someone may notice/recognize the name at group memberships and can tell a bit more about the member.
Of course, if there's a credit to Rambo/Flowerpot in a demo you should create Rambo and also Flowerpot if not already existant.
If Rambo turns up in a memberlist in a demo it's better to add him to the trivia section of Flowerpot. I usually add missing members in the trivia unless they're actually credited for something, then I'll give them an entry instead.
But what do you do if a demo credits f.ex. the logo to Oliver? If you add that Oliver guy he'll be in limbo & probably never noticed or identified. The only way you can run into the entry is if you look at the page of the demo where he got the credit & then you will see comment as well so better put him there imho. |
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Dishy
Registered: Mar 2002 Posts: 241 |
TDJ, I see 100% what you´re thinking with your example with intros and Hein.. But in that case you could do it, like I did here:
Vision Intro 1992
What do you think about doing it that way?
Concerning credits for the "scene-makers" of the games/cracks. Should I/we then add Drax and Hannes Sommer at all the Ballfever cracks by all the cracking groups?
A few years ago, I added this crack by Satan/Genesis*Project:
Bolo +2
I did not add Jazzcat as the coder of the game, as I didn´t know that. Later Jazzcat added himself though. Also Success and Fairlight didn´t add Jazzcat as the coder!
The same goes for this AFL-crack, where I added Faith/Unicess for the music in the game:
Bounce It +5
But should Faith be credited in all crack versions of this game then?
Guess that´s the same case as for Ballfever with Drax and Hannes Sommer.
*****Once A Scener - Always A Scener***** |
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 461 |
Problem is there need to be focus on what people should add credits for, because if the music credits has to be added if it was a scener.
How about level packer, cruncher, packer etc.? If it goes this way it should be credited too. Personally I would say on crack its the cracker/supplier/trainer who should have the credit. Thats what being focussed on in the actual release. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
The answer lies probably in adding some kind of 1:n relationships between a release and a product (intro/cruncher/even game). So for example Hein's intro would become a seperate entry (not a release persee) and the crack would have a link to it. |
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Tch Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004 Posts: 512 |
Quote: Problem is there need to be focus on what people should add credits for, because if the music credits has to be added if it was a scener.
How about level packer, cruncher, packer etc.? If it goes this way it should be credited too. Personally I would say on crack its the cracker/supplier/trainer who should have the credit. Thats what being focussed on in the actual release.
Yeps,some sort of guideline would be very nice.
I have credited some Non-scene musicians because they are already here.
But I only do that to music-rips or if the info is displayed on the titlescreen of the game.
In cracks I mostly don´t, unless it´s made by M.O.N. ;)
Credits for levelpacking etc.. is something I only do when it is explicitely mentioned in the crack.
Otherwise it is just something I regard as being part of cracking.
Credits for `loader´ is something I put in when there is IFFL or a highscore-saver involved.
As for unknown sceners,I also mention them in the comments.
When I find several releases from that guy,I´ll make an account or add a group to his handle. |
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Tch Account closed
Registered: Sep 2004 Posts: 512 |
Quote: The answer lies probably in adding some kind of 1:n relationships between a release and a product (intro/cruncher/even game). So for example Hein's intro would become a seperate entry (not a release persee) and the crack would have a link to it.
I´d say "Add the credits for code/gfx+msx to Hein!!"
It´s too beautiful to be forgotten! 8D
What was that games-name again.. :( |
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SECRET MAN Account closed
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 336 |
Yep,many uploads are locked and thats the problem.I will never lock something here.I unlocked all my Zenith uploads.That costs a lot of time.
I mailed Skid Row (Timo) ,but i became no answer.He locked several things here.SHIT.I will KILL him.
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Wanderer Account closed
Registered: Apr 2003 Posts: 478 |
I agree with Zyron. In cases where I am not sure who the cracker is (eg. three listings for a 'Mr. Hack') I will leave a comment. This way people don't think I was just lazy and I also find others users (eg. Jazzcat) are a fountain of knowledge when it comes to these guys and can fill in the missing blanks.
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
Well it is up to the CSDB admin to fix some things here.
Regarding the intro credits, I strongly agree. But we need some extra things in order not to confuse things.
For example, when uploading a "cracker group release" or a "crack". Normally the only credits are the cracker, original supplier and things like that. But it would also be nice to add other things like "Crack Intro coder", "Crack Intro graphician", "Crack Intro musician".
If you were to add just say:
Code.....Hein Design
Code.....Steve Rowlands
You can't distinguish between the two as who did what. Obviously to those that know, Steve would have coded the game, whilst Hein would have done the crack intro.
If these things can be fixed, by the CSDB admin, then things can be cleared.
Intros are one of the most neglected items on CSDB.
Regarding definitions.
There should be some changes also.
"Game" or "Game Preview" should just be for originals.
"C64 Crack" should be for a game that has been cracked from tape, had protection hacked etc.
"C64 crack group release" (a new definition) should be for those game previews that are merely intro linked or for games that required no actual "cracking".
This way it defines the "releases" and "cracks" better and stops lamers from screaming too much.
I have suggested all of these things to the CSDB admin, but no reply.
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 498 |
"c64 crack group release" sounds gay. Id suggest something more like 'c64 game spread' or something. I mean, the only reason to release an unprotected game is to make it available to more people........
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Slartibartfast Account closed
Registered: Jul 2002 Posts: 230 |
C64 Game Spread?
I knew Nintendo made breakfast cereal, I didn't realise Commodore had started making sandwich spread! |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 498 |
Nintendo made breakfast cereal?
A free cornflake in every box of plastic Marios? |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
They were just examples, not what "should" be. C64 Game Spread sounds lame also, there needs to be reference to a cracking group more so than "game".
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 498 |
But why mention cracking when the game wasnt cracked?
There are several activities you can do on c64:
* demo making
* game cracking
* swapping/game spreading
etc
Some group did more than 1. I do know why youd want to refer to it as a 'cracking group release' when the group might not solely be a cracking group, and the game wasnt cracked.
C64 Game Distribution, spread...whatever. But dont refer to cracking, it makes no sense. There must be a term suitable for when people release a game that didnt require cracking but they add docs etc and make it more widely available.....
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
It needs to be referred to a cracking group. I did mention in my earlier post "cracking group", not just "cracking". Best re-read it. :) A cracking group is the group releasing the ware. It's as simple as that.
When I originally joined this database, I created the releases as "C64 games" but then the admin told me to change it to "C64 cracks" to distinguish the release from the game original. So I did this. Then I get in trouble with a bunch of whiners regarding that it's not a "crack" and just a "release".
I guess in the long term, anyone can just download the release and make up their own terminology. But it would be nice to have some flexibility on this database as far as the labelling is concerned. |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 317 |
"C64 crack group release" is the most stupid thing I heard in ages. Why not call it what we have been called it for the past 20 years - cracks or in csdb lingo "c64 crack".
its quite interesting that people are screaming about "cracking" non-protected games when it has been in fashion since the later part of the 80ies.. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
Iopop: I agree, it is stupid, but there needs to be some other definition, at least to stop some ragheads nagging me all the time for calling things C64 cracks when they should just be "releases" (even though between them and me I probably know the definitions longer than they have been in the scene ;)).
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 317 |
ok, that explains it..
if the revisionists want to have it that way , let them sort out which games really had protection in the past. :)
sorry for being compleltey off topic.. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
Iopop: yep. let them work it out. :)
The most important thing of this thread however is the missing "intro coder", "intro graphician", "intro musician" which we could use for cracks. So many intros are unsung.
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A3
Registered: Dec 2005 Posts: 362 |
And somthing that I really miss is an option to add translated by. As if someone takes the time to translate a game from one language to english, they really should be credited for that. |
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Jazzcat
Registered: Feb 2002 Posts: 1044 |
Yup. Even more work is repainting graphics from one language to another.
__Will the CSDB admin even check my PMs or this thread?__
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Iopop: yep. let them work it out. :)
The most important thing of this thread however is the missing "intro coder", "intro graphician", "intro musician" which we could use for cracks. So many intros are unsung.
Hence my solution of adding intros etc. as a seperate 'product' (not so much a release) and attaching the credits to that.
Same for a game. Wouldn't it be great if you could find all other cracks of a game with just 2 clicks? |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 317 |
in conclusion the way of storing cracks into this db is not optimal. One of the reasons why I never bothered to enter any Triad cracks, new or old.
We will look into this and fix it in CSDb v2.
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2381 |
Quote: And somthing that I really miss is an option to add translated by. As if someone takes the time to translate a game from one language to english, they really should be credited for that.
Agreed, in the meantime I've used "Text" + explanation in the notes.
Another credit I'd like to see is "Sampling" or "Samples" since the only way to credit something like this at the moment is with "Music" which feels wrong. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
Quote: Yup. Even more work is repainting graphics from one language to another.
__Will the CSDB admin even check my PMs or this thread?__
Both Iopop & me are involved in csdb v2, where I personally will focus on a new entity relationship model so .. patience ;) |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004 Posts: 1098 |
dont tell me you're gonna do it in java ffs ;) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001 Posts: 1879 |
Quote: dont tell me you're gonna do it in java ffs ;)
Well, I normally don't use java or sth when designing the data-model so .. no ;) |
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jcompton
Registered: Feb 2006 Posts: 70 |
I think there's definitely a point of diminishing returns to various different sorting categories, and we're probably already there.
In re sorting post-1991 "cracks": It's fairly obvious to all and sundry that the "CP Verlag" copyright, or just about anything with a post-1991 date generally, is not exactly a sign of having overcome V-Max v12.0 ULTRAMEGA-ANTINIBBLER. Whether it was silly or not, the "crack" groups treated them as they would any other software release, and it seems unlikely that many visitors to this site will truly have a difficult time distinguishing between their efforts and the guys removing protection schemes in previous years.
Coder vs. intro coder vs. musician vs. sampler vs...: Again, enough! Coders are coders. If more explanation is required to discuss the division of labor ("Horst did the plotter but that was originally for the Romanian Bloodsausage Party Co-op. Schmenge is responsible for all sinus data!"), there's a comments area.
Music is, ultimately, music, and any confusion there may be between Jeroen Tel and Wasp of Death (both of whom employed sampling to make C64 music) can be pretty easily sorted out by a quick gloss over their respective bodies of work. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2381 |
To sample a couple of seconds of a commercial song & use it in a demo is not composing & should not be credited with "Music" imo. Yet it needs to be credited in some way. Maybe we could use an "Other"-option & a possibility to make an own label, f.ex.
Credits :
Code .... Main Coder of Groupies
Other (Samples) .... That Guy of Another Group |
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Style
Registered: Jun 2004 Posts: 498 |
Quote: "C64 crack group release" is the most stupid thing I heard in ages. Why not call it what we have been called it for the past 20 years - cracks or in csdb lingo "c64 crack".
its quite interesting that people are screaming about "cracking" non-protected games when it has been in fashion since the later part of the 80ies..
That's true, I didnt consider that.......
Since a fair proportion of 'cracks' included no protection removal, then the best option is probably to continue to call them 'cracks'.
Its true, if you change the terminology now, youd have to retroactively fix every release which is impossible. |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002 Posts: 2381 |
You people seem obsessed with this Crack vs. Game vs. Game Preview problem and urge the admins to add a new cathegory, meanwhile there are lots of Onefilers added as simply "C64 Demo" even though there's a special cathegory to use. To me the way the demos are added is just as important as any other release. |