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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
My suggestion for adding intros
Okay, I've made up the following concept.
When someone adds a new release and he chooses C64 Crack there should be an extra
menu/prompt popping up at the edit screen
saying..
SEARCH INTRO (style like searching for a person)
you can check if it is the proper intro, if YES and the credits of the used intro are accurate to the ones in the database you just click it to have a link from the crack to the intro and vice versa
if the intro wasnt in the database yet or uses a char, music etc. which isnt credited yet on its intro page
you may edit following:
Name: (as mostly intros names are unknown I'd say we either call them like GROUPNAME INTRO or GROUPNAME INTRO 01, 02 etc....
Aka: e.g. if an intro has a special name which doesnt indicate its originating group this is the place to write GROUPNAME INTRO
Released at: not sure if this shall be implented, but some cracks were released at parties, if that info is important for the intro..
Release date: should name the date of the crack this intro got released first
Pouet ID: does Pouet take intros? if yes, this option aswell
Upload Screenshot from this Intro (I personally prefer a screenshot from the very first use)
Released by groups and sceners: at the entries of the intros I already uploaded I did not add this cos they are no official releases, nevertheless it could be interesting when intros were done by someone else than its group e.g. several 711 intros (Tera, Light..) still this should be usually be part of the credits when they would be 100% accurate, meaning having exact joining/leaving dates but this is an utopian wish. 8)
Credits:
Coding, Graphics, Charset, Music, PAL/NTSC fix, Text (anything else?)
now it gets tricky!
It should be possible to alter the release date for each entered credit, e.g. in the Hotline Intro with the different appearances (mostly used by C&C Hotline Intro 28) they first used JCH's X-Ray and later Edwin's Groove is in the Heart, having 'Groove is in the Heart' credited on the same day as the first use of the intro would be stupid, it's probably havent been composed on that day yet.
Difficulties occuring: If the newer music is by the same guy as the earlier one...
Shall every intro use be credited? I say no, this would follow to enormous lists e.g. on Woodo/Fairlight or David M. Hanlon being credited a 100 times for one intro, first use is enough.
Events which this releae contains information about (hm, part of the intro or of the crack....)
SIDs ûsed in this release
obviously the release date of each used SID should be changeable manually too! Release dates for SIDs are used on their particular page which lists all the releases they were used inside at the bottom of the page, not using individual release credit date would mess up the correct chronological order of the list
Cracks this intro was used for:
shall be able to merge with the proper crack, in the usual mode (searching, new crack blabla)
Download Links:
Several options
a) none
b) all the cracks this been used for, is interesting and quicker to download than going to all the pages this intro was used on, often used intros like Fairlight's Woodo could be bundled up in a .RAR archive (someone's gotta take care of that, cos they need to be updated... me?!)
c) the ripped intro like on Zyron's site, I personally dislike this option, but it seems to be liked by many sceners, besides it could also be linked to the proper page on intros.c64.org
Upload file (concludes from b+c above)
Reason for not adding a download link (dito)
Shall the intro credit pop in a sceners profile? Yes, but only once, at first use
Shall the intro credit pop in a groups profile? Not sure about that, it was never released like a demo/crack, still could be interesting in that case when e.g. Tera did an intro for 711..
Furthermore I strongly support an original/ripped use of e.g. char, music checker! Both for release and sceners/groups, in the later the ripped credits could be set up in an own list below the original credits list
- suggestions, improvements, criticism, insisting on wrong conclusions in my argumentation, contradictions? let me know
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 347 |
zyrons site covers this AND does a good job.. so i disagree.. it's just re-inventing the wheel.
upping intros, just for the sake of posting on here = zzzz
yer i can understand if the intro was never used, i have 3 that i will up , that don't appear anywhere else, but only due to the fact they weren't used.
next you'll be asking posting.. oh and in credits...
what they were wearing that day, what they had for dinner/breakfast etc.. |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
however this will be implemented here
i more like searching one site than having to browse several for different kind of stuff
if intros are added here in a nice way, i can skip browsing intros.c64.org, i still like the idea :-) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I don't see adding intros (which is a must) to the database is competition for Zyron's, it's just a good add-on or call it 'co-existence'. Zyron's page is always an interesting look and features a lot of comments from ex-sceners on the intros, which partly include interesting information. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 347 |
2 very well known intro's upped to zyrons site.. coded by a friend, he has commented on.. he hasn't bothered using csdb as yet, not all people want to be that involved.
not everyone joins up here.. shocking but true.. 64 was part of his younger life.
it would be nice if their was more transparency between here/intros/and c64.ch for sure.
but i still think the can remain as seperate things, just linked a bit better.
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
Setting a group on the intro would be very useful.
Release group is not very good though, there should be a flag to signify that this is an unreleased intro. (type=something different than C64 Intro?)
The group should signify which group used that intro.
This way there can be a list on the group page of all intros used by that group. Makes it very much easier to find an already added intro.
Also it's very type-cast on "cracks" at the moment. The same intro were sometimes used on demos aswell. I'd like a more generalized wording. |
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 347 |
tlr
your right
"The same intro were sometimes used on demos aswell."
some were even turned into intro's :)
CDU Demo
the first part of that was used elsewhere, same code/coder, just different logo.
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I already recognized the problem with demos using particular intros. Shouldnt be a problem to solve that, til then I simply mention the demo in the comments.
I don't add the groups as releaser for obvious reasons in most cases, I only do that when the intro was done by another group. By adding cracks to an intro it's easy to click surf to the cracker group entry anyhow. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
which is a weird way of looking at it imho. if group A makes an intro for group B, and group B releases a crack with that intro attached that doesnt magically turn group A into the releasing group. in almost all cases the group which used the intro can be considered the group which released it, the only exception i could think of beeing intros which were released standalone. (and that really was an exception) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
We definately want a link from an intro to the group entry of the group using that intro.
For this to work, some added feature to the db such that it does not appear in the Release list is required.
To rephrase what I suggested earlier:
The quickest fix as I see it is to add a new release type, and that particular release type is made to show up in a list of "Intros used" by that group instead of Releases. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
sounds good to me :) |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
Quote: which is a weird way of looking at it imho. if group A makes an intro for group B, and group B releases a crack with that intro attached that doesnt magically turn group A into the releasing group. in almost all cases the group which used the intro can be considered the group which released it, the only exception i could think of beeing intros which were released standalone. (and that really was an exception)
And if they really were released stand alone, that would probably have its own entry for the stand alone release.
This makes sense, because otherwise there would be no download if done like with the cracks currently. |
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Burglar
Registered: Dec 2004
Posts: 1098 |
"Cracks which use this intro" / "Intro used in this crack"
great new feature! |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Quote: We definately want a link from an intro to the group entry of the group using that intro.
For this to work, some added feature to the db such that it does not appear in the Release list is required.
To rephrase what I suggested earlier:
The quickest fix as I see it is to add a new release type, and that particular release type is made to show up in a list of "Intros used" by that group instead of Releases.
Sounds like a good solution to me as well, intro credits should be listed like usual other entries for single sceners thou, not in a special list, but I guess that's obvious.
Still what bothers me is that release by/link to group, a special link would be best like tlr suggests, the link to a creator group outside the group the intro is for should be given automatically when all information and dates are 100% accurate, listing them 'scener of group'. Like I mentioned somewhere else it is utopic, but the way to go. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Thumbs up, pretty good solution! And Rough doesn't need to be stopped in his recent CSDb frenzy! :D |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
quite the contrary - time to change all those misplaced download links into proper links to the cracks :o) |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
WIP, Gröpi! |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
my idea with adding game originals was something like discussed in this thread.
you lookup a game, and then you can see the cracks associated with it, order them in time to see which group cracked it 1st, 2nd, etc,etc, and not least you can check out even the original version. |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
I'll support that idea. Even if the scene crybabies will take their stand again with "NOOOOOOOOOO. ITZ NOOOOOTO SCEEEEENE RELAITED".
There's the option to disfunction demo/cracks in the personal options, so an option to disable Originals for those who are strictly against it should be an easy trick.
adding .G64 and .TAP files, why not? why so narrow minded, it's 2007, plenty of web space, and it's fun
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
i support this idea as well, and i know there will be trouble :-)
we first need this general 'make something invisible'-system so there wont be to much hussle... those new categories could be hidden by default, and each user would have to switch those back on if he'd like to see them
imo: the more there is in the database, the better |
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461 |
I agree with Rough's idea about not adding them as he said. Its not scene related stuff.
Let other sites handle this impossible task. You need to find out which original the crack were done on, then you need coverscan, docs etc. Worst task is to find out what cracks belongs which original - noone can be sure if e.g. Illusion cracked it from a different distribution than Legend did.
Adding extra data as you mention will be better, but you need to be sure they are accurate. |
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Quote: I agree with Rough's idea about not adding them as he said. Its not scene related stuff.
Let other sites handle this impossible task. You need to find out which original the crack were done on, then you need coverscan, docs etc. Worst task is to find out what cracks belongs which original - noone can be sure if e.g. Illusion cracked it from a different distribution than Legend did.
Adding extra data as you mention will be better, but you need to be sure they are accurate.
Err... if I understood correctly, Rough DOES want to have them added.
I too like it the way Oswald describes... you can NEVER have enough information :) |
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461 |
How would you make sure its the original that the groups actually did the crack from and not some local distribution? |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
regardless of what my personal opinion about adding originals is.... forget that idea. come back in a year or two. the database structure and the site as such can't deal with it properly right now, and there are many more small things that should be fixed before even thinking about expanding the site even more. (quality over quantity is the key here). |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
Yeah, Mason got me wrong, I support the idea of adding originals. I also understand Groepaz' p.o.v. that there is much other things to do at the moment and seeing that there are plenty of other sites which distribute .taps/.g64 and corresponding scans it's surely not a hurry.
And, Mason, about the very correct linking to which original was used, in most cases it's fucking uninteresting cause the files were the very same (exceptions are in differences of tape/disk version e.g. Ace 2 or Euro/American distribtuion, easy to differ thou), when it's from a budget re-release it mostly can be seen at the release year and like myself you know very good that from 1991+ often "cracks" were done from 250 blocks whole mem saves spread among the scene, so in fact those were neither cracked, nor were they even from a proper 100% original- |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
i cracked from (usually incomplete and non working) backups even before that :)
mason has a good point though. it might be not always that obvious, but originals DID differ depending on when and where they were released. i noticed that when examining originals and various cracks of bmx simulator...you'd be surprised how many different distributions of that damned game existed :) |
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Mason
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 461 |
You are right Groepaz. We got a big job in the tap community to make sure where the taps came from as there was different distributions.
Even some distributions had different loaders
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
When just the loader is different but the main file the same it will be impossible to judge which source the crack comes from anyhow, except if the cracker kept loader traces in the mem.
Anyway, this is offtopic, so I did PM'.
topic: I still dont like when intros are added which used several tunes over the years that all tunes have the same date. Something should be done about that like suggested in the first post. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
imho when an intro used a different tune (charset, logo, whatever) it should get another entry.
but what do i know about database integrity =P |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
in my opinion only when there is advanced code which makes it a v1.0, v1.1, v1.2
just loading a new music to $1000 or a new font to $2000 doesn't make a new intro |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
apart from that you will probably never be able to tell which version that 'tro is, it would make sense to have a general intro-skeleton, from which all the different music and so on derives
it would probably be easier to just add another entry (do we have a 'copy-this-entry'-button yet, perff?)
and then change the music whatsoever
in that case, i dont like the idea of what will show up in the credits of the coder for example, lots of credits cause he coded the 'tro, even though the code was only done once and the 'tro is pretty the same from the coding point of view |
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TNT
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2004
Posts: 189 |
Quote: in my opinion only when there is advanced code which makes it a v1.0, v1.1, v1.2
just loading a new music to $1000 or a new font to $2000 doesn't make a new intro
So, are intros used in Demonomanie and The Rats same or different?
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Fungus
Registered: Sep 2002
Posts: 686 |
This is stupid and redundant IMO.
Simply make a link to intros.c64.org!
BAH
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chancer
Registered: Apr 2003
Posts: 347 |
fungus. i don't totally disagree with the idea, but the way its implimented would be good if it was linked more to the intro's site.
maybe a thumbnail of gfx so it would be a case of just quickly clicking the specific one.. some groups did loads of various ones.
if someone wants to go along and catalog them , thats up to them.. i'm not that ar**d..
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Mace
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 1799 |
Hmm, yeah, Fungus... you are not as stupid as I look...
Although linking to other sites DOES introduce dependancies that might break in the future, for whatever reason. |
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tlr
Registered: Sep 2003
Posts: 1790 |
The benefit of having intro entries here is that credits can be added to those now.
This was lacking before, and might in the future shed some light on the origins of parts of the demo scene.
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
Quote: This is stupid and redundant IMO.
Simply make a link to intros.c64.org!
BAH
to push this further:
please stop adding demos, its redundant, just add a link to www.c64.ch! ;-)
redundancy is not given with adding intros here
its not the whole internet which is the database!
just let ppl add what they want!
you are welcome to switch those categories off (in your user-settings) so you dont see them anymore
well, that would require they are all added in the right category (as 'crackintros' even if that sounds stupid to some ppl) and not as general 'intros'...
talk to the ppl adding them as intros, making it impossible to filter them out for you... |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Did somebody notice the following?
If the entry is a C64 Cracktro you can't select a crack which used the intro. If you set the entry to C64 Intro it works.
:-\ |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
i had been told that it works for both, that was a week ago :-) |
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Scout
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 1570 |
Quote: i had been told that it works for both, that was a week ago :-)
Nope :( |
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Rough
Account closed
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1829 |
8) |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
too bad i havent checked that myself :) |
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wreg
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2004
Posts: 679 |
ok, i have tested it and it does now
hooray for perff :-) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Someone hit me with a cluestick, but how do I assign an intro to a crack from within the crack edit page?
I can assign a crack to an intro from within an intro edit page, but that's quite tiresome. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
i think thats still on the todo list :) |
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Marauder/GSS
Account closed
Registered: Jul 2006
Posts: 224 |
just wondering... does an intro increase release-count (e.g. group)? if yes, isn't this double then as it's not a standalone release? and does it also count for statistic? |
