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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Transparent votes?
There's been a lot of "discussion" in the one-liner box about whether voting should be transparent, i.e. you can see who voted (and their vote's value).
I feel that things should stay as they are, just the number of votes and "weighted" vote shown for each entry. That would save all the arguments "why did you vote low for me?" or "he/she is a lamer, they voted low for me/my release"
What do others think? |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
you have posted in the wrong are. please take this back to the oneliners where it belongs, thankyou :) |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Quote: you have posted in the wrong are. please take this back to the oneliners where it belongs, thankyou :)
Transparent fade now! |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I think votes should be transparent. Period. |
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St0fF
Registered: Oct 2002
Posts: 40 |
right. It's better for personal improvement, 'cause you can go to someone and ask what was not so good in the release. |
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Merman
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 140 |
Quote: right. It's better for personal improvement, 'cause you can go to someone and ask what was not so good in the release.
But will it? Or will people vote low because they don't LIKE someone, regardless of what the release is like?
You can TRY to improve yourself anyway, regardless of WHO voted for you. I just think it will provoke more meaningless discussion and WASTE ENERGY. |
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blackdroid
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 84 |
I think votes should _not_ be transparent, period! |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
i don't see why it should be anonymous. there's nothing to hide really. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Transparent votes is a load of shit. Why would you really want it? I know of many people who would never vote if it was not transparent (I would not vote in transparent charts). If there is thought to be some fudging of votes then the admins here have their logs which may trace IPs and usernames (both important). Otherwise people create fake accounts, vote etc. I see transparent votes is some kind of stand over tactics. Scare people from being honest without fear. If they did introduce transparent votes then I'd be happy to see voting elimated entirely. |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
I think I don't currently care or know, whether I would like such a thing or not. After you discuss it for a while, the only solution is a poll. There are people who want and people who don't.. |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
However, it would be interesting to know who voted for what. I don't care that much, whether I have something to hide or not. On pouet, there exist transparent votes (but only thumbs up/down and neither numbers nor voting for individual sceners too) and it's fine for me.
Also, some people intentionally vote really bad marks for specific demos, just because they think these demos got an attention they didn't deserved. Deus Ex Machina for example, someone voted 1. Why 1 and not 3 or 5 if he doesn't like it? He intentionally wanted to lower it's position I beleive.
Happens in Pouet sometimes too (rarely), there is for example a demo in the top10 and someone doesn't beleive it deserves such attention and he votes it down out of reaction to the many thumbs up votes, even if he admits that he wouldn't thumb it down under normal conditions but he did only to counter the many possitive votes that this shouldn't have got in his opinion. |
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
I don't understand the need for votes at all. |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
I kind of dig the voting. I mean... I'm not going to lose sleep over it if it disappears, but it's always fun to see where productions and sceners rank amongst the others.
Truly transparent votes would probably get rid of the kind of downvoting that Optimus is talking about. I have the feeling that there is some of that going on around here, which is probably the cause of the recent oneliner uproar (why isn't Vanja on this thread, anyway?). If the votes were transparent, and you could "point the finger" (so to speak) at the person doing it, it'd probably deter them from downvoting in the first place. The downside to transparent voting is that, for some reason, people sometimes don't like voting if it's not anonymous... and, as Merman pointed out, it will cause a lot of arguments and discussions about WHY somebody voted this or that for whatever release they voted for.
Of course, there could always be, er, "translucent" voting, as it were... so that you can see WHO voted for what production, but not HOW they voted... or even that they voted above a five or below a five, or something like that. I don't know how that'd work to cut down the downvoting, but I suppose it's worth a shot. Otherwise... I don't have a specific preference for either kind.
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
Quote:
I agree. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Fade, you obviously got confused here: It's not about tranparent POSTINGS, it's about transparent VOTING. Doh! ;-) |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
There WAS a poll - and as far as I can recall the majority voted for transparent votes, yet nothing has happened.
There has also been at least one forum topic about transparent votes before, yet nothing has happened. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Here are the previous discussions on the matter:
Downvoting
Transparant voting & editing
At least add the *option* to make *your own* votes transparent, as suggested by Steppe in one of the topics:
"I suggest that people who want to make their votes visible to others should be given the possibility, some checkbox you can switch on and off in the user preferences. Would that be hard to implement?"
And/or implement The Dark Judge's suggestion:
"You could also combine that with lack of power-voting. E.g.: if you don't want your votes to be known, you also only have the right to give rates from 3-8 or something." |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Wot!? I said that?
That's a cool idea! =) |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
BAD VOTERS EXPOSED!
Maybe a list of the voters would be a good idea, too.
You can see who actually voted but you can leave the figures unmentioned.
You can now see who voted and if there are fake-account votings. You might be spotted by that but not left with your panties down.
Transparent votes would be good to find out who did that shitty voting but imagine you have to go to some election for your local politicians/parliaments etc. and your votes will be shown together with your name. That is no good idea.
Maybe just the 1,2 and 3 voters could be named.
If you really don't like that release you can always explain your point of view to others then. But actually I don't see any point in voting a 1 for really cool demos like deus ex etc.
always keep in mind that all roads lead to rome
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Honest and fair voting... yeah sure. Here's the thing. Recently I've got known about a downvoter of mine and when I asked really kindly about his reasons of downvoting my faakkin person he said it was by mistake (yeah sure) and he changed the 1 to 10. Get the point eh.
What about making only those votes transparent that are lower than f. e. 3 and higher than 8. Voila, everyone happy. Or even better: NOT ALLOWING to vote for your nick. Sometimes I have a crazy feeling, I rather wouldn't be present on "top"-lists at all.
My only uno was checked under a handle of a cable-guy, and in fact I'm proud of that downvote.
See what Mermaid wrote, hello, read carefully:
THE ABSOLUTE MAJORITY VOTED *YES* FOR TRANSPARENT VOTES
Doesn't that ring a bell or something? We're not electing a president of scene, but judging others and their productions. |
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jailbird
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1578 |
Posted my shit in the same time as Slator. Good to see we more or less think the same way :)
Ok, I got some beers and I'm pretty drunk. So you better ignore me, now! |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Arnold, why should we ignore you :-D
it is good that our thinking is not too far away from reality... :-D cheers mate and cracking beers rocks, too :D |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
Quote: Here are the previous discussions on the matter:
Downvoting
Transparant voting & editing
At least add the *option* to make *your own* votes transparent, as suggested by Steppe in one of the topics:
"I suggest that people who want to make their votes visible to others should be given the possibility, some checkbox you can switch on and off in the user preferences. Would that be hard to implement?"
And/or implement The Dark Judge's suggestion:
"You could also combine that with lack of power-voting. E.g.: if you don't want your votes to be known, you also only have the right to give rates from 3-8 or something."
I like both of these thoughts... the tradeoff of either being transparent, or losing the power-vote. Combining them would probably be very good.
I am also in complete agreeance with Jailbird's statement that we should not be allowed to vote for our own nicks (and/or groups). Frankly, I'm not entirely sure why you CAN vote for yourself; most everyplace else that contains voting generally tells you NOT to.
Completely fair and balanced voting, though, is still a dream. You've got a better chance of spotting a live unicorn in Times Square... and if someone really, really wants to downvote you, it's not going to stop them from making accounts and voting three a bunch of times until the rating drops, or even just saying "fuck it" and voting one, transparently. It is a step in the right direction, though.
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Btw,. I was wondering who is the webmaster of this site? Can he join our discussion? |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Steppe: You haven't noticed Merman's second post I guess ;) |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
"People who don't like transparent voting, their votes will range from 3 to 8"
"Votes bellow 3 or above 8, will automatically be transparent"
The ideas are very nice and I definitelly prefer the 2nd
But if the majority has voted for transparent votes in that poll but nothing has changed, then something is not moving on. Where is the webmaster? (Perhaps he doesn't like transparent votes :) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Optimus: I don't get it, what are you trying to tell me? My last posting referred to Mermaid summing up some proposals of how one could handle the transparent votings in a fair way. |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
It was just a joke, I was referring to these :)
Merman: Transparent fade now!
Fade:
Steppe: Fade, you obviously got confused here: It's not about tranparent POSTINGS, it's about transparent VOTING. Doh! ;-) |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Ok then. ;-) |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Now something happens.
I added an option to the user-accounts so that every user can choose weither their votes should be displayed publicly or not. ( http://noname.c64.org/csdb/userpage/details.php )
If you choose to make your CSDb votes public they will show up on the vote-statistic pages. (I did that already :) )
If you do nothing your votes will still be anonymous.
Hope this is a step in the right direction...
/CSDb Admin |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
YES very vise solution! Now who doesn't vote transparently is the biggest lamer in the world ;-))) (I should post that on C64.sk ;-) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Hm I think this stil doesn't solve the problem completely. I would suggest to display at least list of users who voted for the entry.
Or at least (somewhere in the statistics) the (complete) list of users with number of votes they have casted ;-) |
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QuasaR
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 145 |
Hmm, nice, but what do we do with ppl voting for themselves/their groups? |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
the first step is done but it won't help at all as the downvoters will never turn this feature on,
auto exposing at vote 1,2,3 would be better. Maybe on 10 and 9, too.
btw. puterman is very hard to satisfy, guess all coders have to improve a lot if they want a high vote ,-D
regards |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Quote: Hmm, nice, but what do we do with ppl voting for themselves/their groups?
nail them on the cross like in the past would be a proper answer for selfvoting...
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Puterman
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 188 |
Slator: I have an odd taste in demos. And I haven't voted a 10 so far. Quite a few 9s, though. Still waiting for that perfect demo that'll never be made. |
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cadaver
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 1160 |
Ah, all I wanted for peace of mind in this world was to confirm my strong suspicion that it was indeed Puterman voting 1 to certain mags quite systematically, thanks csdb crew :)) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
what about making votes transparent which absolutely don't fit to the rest of the votes? |
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DCMP
Account closed
Registered: May 2003
Posts: 59 |
Quote: the first step is done but it won't help at all as the downvoters will never turn this feature on,
auto exposing at vote 1,2,3 would be better. Maybe on 10 and 9, too.
btw. puterman is very hard to satisfy, guess all coders have to improve a lot if they want a high vote ,-D
regards
I agree. That auto exposing those rates thing seems like a good idea. :) |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
We also thought about that.
Actually we made something that should display these votes, but we didn't activate it because:
1. When is a vote 'anormal' enough? (sugestions are welcome)
2. If someone just simply disagrees with others (that happens) should they then be exposed just because of that?
In my oppinion the absolutely best solution is down-grade the votes which appear extreme in some way. No exposiure of ppl who don't want their oppinion out.
Unfortunately I have no idea of how to figure out what is extreme and how you should down-grade it.
Some statistics-guru out there who can help? |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
As I wrote before, it is easy to see if someone just downvotes or really thinks that this one is bad.
If user "eduardo lamer" gives a 1 to "deus ex machina" or some real guy is voting a 1 is a difference, you can always ask him why he did it and maybe discuss it. It is not very likely that some proper fellow is giving such votes.
for anything concerning math shit as Graham, he will most likely spin your brain around with some figure-spanking |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
You just give me the code that can see if it's a lamer vote or not and I'll put it in CSDb right away! ;)
No. I'm trying to do some math right now.
Graham (or anyone else) - you are welcome to hit me with some ideas.
Just a question trown out there:
I guess you can assume that votes will follow a normal distribution, but can you also assume that the standart deviation is constant? |
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Oxidy
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 80 |
Perhaps this is already suggested?
You have your weighted average. I think it would be reasonable to have the votes of the transparent voters weigh higher. For example divide the importance of the non-transparent votes by half in the weighted average formula. This would encourage people to vote transparent and all anonymous downvotes would not weigh as much.
Another thing. Why not have the possibility to add a comment together with your votes, such as on c64.ch. It's quite interesting to read those comments (ie if any is written).
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
I still like the idea of having limited non-transparent voting. In that way, you don't even have to worry too much about the "lamer votes", because 99% of lamer votes come from the transparent, and if you're limited to a range of 3-8, you can't downvote all that effectively.
And, by God, there's no math required. Well, none that can't be summed up by saying:
"If four people vote 5, and the fifth votes 3, it will bring the average down far less than if that fifth person voted 1."
If someone wants anonymity that much, then I figure they'll be willing to deal with the restricted votes.
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Finally, we have transparent votes and I also know now who is responsible for the site. Any new suggestions would be interesting to implement..
P.S. Graham's suggestion was surprisingly original. Not that I got it, cause I don't know the english terminology. Lol! I guess I've gotta open my math books now :) |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
It would be great to click on a CSDB user and see a list of all his votes, descending. It's interesting to see what an individual scener likes.. |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: It would be great to click on a CSDB user and see a list of all his votes, descending. It's interesting to see what an individual scener likes..
I agree. Would be a nice feature.
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Do you want to have my credit card number too?
Maybe I want to see your girlfriends naked.
This goes a bit too far, call your local fbi dealer to get info about a person. This is a database and no secret service dossier collector.
There really is NO point in doing a feature where you can see all votes by one person.
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Quote: Do you want to have my credit card number too?
Maybe I want to see your girlfriends naked.
This goes a bit too far, call your local fbi dealer to get info about a person. This is a database and no secret service dossier collector.
There really is NO point in doing a feature where you can see all votes by one person.
Well, if a person votes high for a musician that I like, then it would be fun to see what else he likes. That might help me find more nice musicians. Same goes for demos. I don't watch many demos, but if someone voted high for a demo that I like it might help me find other ones that I like.
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
I am not for displaying the votes outright. Transparency is one thing; listing people's votes in an easy to read spreadsheet format is something completely different.
I hear what you're saying, though. I think it could best be served as a separate feature, outside of the whole transparent voting thing. It might actually be cool to impliment; sort of a "If you like THIS demo, check out these..." sort of thing. Of course, clicking on that would take you to a list of demos that would be in some way similar to the one you were just looking at. If that makes sense to anyone except me.
Anyway... yeah. That's my story.
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iopop
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 317 |
Why not remove all info on what groups the sceners have been in and replace that with what they vote for instead? Add a voter of the month chart?
Seriously, maybe its just me, but I thought the main idea of this site was get an information database, not a pouet copy? |
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Derision
Registered: Feb 2002
Posts: 69 |
Quote: Why not remove all info on what groups the sceners have been in and replace that with what they vote for instead? Add a voter of the month chart?
Seriously, maybe its just me, but I thought the main idea of this site was get an information database, not a pouet copy?
CSDb has the capacity to be a lot more than a simple database... and it's already gone beyond the definition of a simple information storage site by having the votes and news posts and whatnot.
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
The system like it is now is a big pile of shit. Until there is no real solution for the stuff we are talking about for some time now.
It is a good thing to see who actually is man/woman enough to show the handle while voting, it still doesnt prevent the shitheads doing crap.
Expose the whole system or turn it off. Those shitty influence of lamers downvoting for fun has to be wiped out.
Users who are not connected to the scene (e.g. fakehandles) should be excluded from voting.
turn it off or do it real
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
hmm..
Well. I now made a function that tries to identify fake-votes and remove them when calculating the rating.
Therefor all the charts have now changed a bit and most of the ratings have grown.
Check it out and see if it looks ok.
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Slator wrote: "Expose the whole system or turn it off. Those shitty influence of lamers downvoting for fun has to be wiped out."
I agree with Slator..Transparency or no voting at all. |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
Yep,
I believe in transparency. All the way. I agree with Mermaid and Slator and I can't see no meaning with transparent voting. And second - I see this majorly as an information database and not something which will be a bad Pouet-clone. Let's stick to facts and open opinions. |
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Hurrican
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 10 |
Some statistical suggestion to solve the problem of downvotes:
Just don't count the extremest 10% of all votes when creating the weighed average.
Example...
Demo A got the following votes:
10: 2x
9: 1x
8: 12x
7: 30x
6: 16x
5: 8x
4: 5x
3: 2x
2: 0x
1: 4x
That's 80 votes in total. Weighed average would be 501/80=6,26.
If you eleminate the 10% extremest votes (that means the 5% best and the 5% worst), you get a new list of (72) votes:
10: 0x
9: 0x
8: 11x
7: 30x
6: 16x
5: 8x
4: 5x
3: 2x
2: 0x
1: 0x
Weighed average now is 460/72=6,39.
Voila, downvoting eliminated.
OK, the figures could have been more extreme, but you get the point... ;-)
CU,
Hurrican |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Other solution than just simple non-anonymous voting is just a hack. It's like fighting with spam, it won't help you to get rid of scam.
It won't help to ged rid of fake accounts.
Transaparency and non-anonymity is the best regulation of human behaviour.
I'm for transparency. Anyone can erase their votes if they don't feel like showing their opinion. |
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Hurrican
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 10 |
I disagree. What's your aim?
If you want to stop downvoting having influence on the rankings, then think about my approach.
If you want to stop people using fake-accounts, then try implementing some kind of verification (check E-Mail, log IP's and delete account that regulary log in using the same IP, etc.).
If you just want to know who voted what, then say so. If you don't, then a simple no is not the appropriate answer for a complex question.
Taking away anonymity might stop unwanted behaviour. But it may also end up stopping WANTED behaviour, too (e.g. people who don't show their name when voting now, will probably stop voting once and for all). Are you willing to take that risk?
I say: Before you do that, try other approches, that don't have negative side-effects. If they don't work, one can still try the hard way. |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Quote: I disagree. What's your aim?
If you want to stop downvoting having influence on the rankings, then think about my approach.
If you want to stop people using fake-accounts, then try implementing some kind of verification (check E-Mail, log IP's and delete account that regulary log in using the same IP, etc.).
If you just want to know who voted what, then say so. If you don't, then a simple no is not the appropriate answer for a complex question.
Taking away anonymity might stop unwanted behaviour. But it may also end up stopping WANTED behaviour, too (e.g. people who don't show their name when voting now, will probably stop voting once and for all). Are you willing to take that risk?
I say: Before you do that, try other approches, that don't have negative side-effects. If they don't work, one can still try the hard way.
actually I dont fucking care if someone doesn't vote because he has to show his name. If you are not man/woman enough to stay to what you think about a release then simply don't vote at all. all this mathcrap just complicates the whole shit. there will always be shitheads abusing the system at max. I am really ashamed to see top groups treated like shit because some noobs downvote them just to see their super-elite-combo in front. get rid of anonymous or get rid of voting... FULLSTOP |
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Twoflower
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 434 |
I fully agree with Slator on this one.
Make the voting transparent or remove it. Period. The wellknown refurbishing by Secret Man would have proven an excellent occation to either remove or remake the system. Now, this wasn't the case. I believe it'd would give more to remove the anonymous voting than it'd give to keep it as it is. If some wanted behaviour (=chicken voting) would be outwiped, so what? |
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Hurrican
Registered: Oct 2003
Posts: 10 |
@Slator:
Explicit language will not make the situation any better.
In my opinion, the whole point in voting is to get as many votes as possible. If a mechanism is implemented that scares away a great number of voters, voting should be disabled completly. Else you'll never get a decent result.
At least on that point I agree.
BTW: If the wish to stay anonymous is "not man/woman enough", then what do you think of crypting e-mails or sealing envelopes? |
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
Quote: @Slator:
Explicit language will not make the situation any better.
In my opinion, the whole point in voting is to get as many votes as possible. If a mechanism is implemented that scares away a great number of voters, voting should be disabled completly. Else you'll never get a decent result.
At least on that point I agree.
BTW: If the wish to stay anonymous is "not man/woman enough", then what do you think of crypting e-mails or sealing envelopes?
the reason why I used that kind of language is very simple, please check when there has been the first step towards a fair solution on voting. since then not much more than bla bla was the result. there have been many good ideas in endless posts but that doesnt help much.
voting in such a place here I do not compare to my personal rights, sorry.
this ain't fort knox but more goes towards planet kiddie |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I want to get one thing straight here.
The reason why you want transparent votes is:
1. To avoid fake votes.
2. To see who voted what.
If it's the first I think I have done everything I can to avoid this in any case. I implemented a 'filter' which should eleminate any "extreme" votes. I know it's not 100% but I have spent a LOT of time on it, and if you see on Crest's entry Crest and calculate the normal average it is 8.18, but the calculated average is in fact 9 because of my 'filter'.
If it's the second I don't think that is reason enough. I must admit that I belive in anonymous voting.
Yes - it could help on detecting fake accounts, but also here we have some systems to help us with that. One major thing which is missing in CSDb, and that is man-power.
Some time ago I anounced for someone to help the development of CSDb, and that also includes maintaining the user-database and pick out fake accounts.
Anyone want to spend some hours doing such are welcome to contact me. :)
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Perff, since the fact that all low votes are *always* anonymous doesn't seem to mean anything to you, I'd like to know if you could at least make it possible for people to brand their groups and productions 'non-votable'. Because I don't want to be part of a system that is so wrong anymore. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I would like to be able to vote without people knowing I done so. That being said - I don't vote.
All low votes are anonymous? I don't think Puterman is anonymous (I only noticed a 3 for one of my things he voted, not meaning to single him out). It doesn't worry me.
We don't fully know how many fake accounts are still active. All it takes is a group of mates to get together and plan their votes to maximise their effect and try to get around the filters. They give good votes to some good productions but share it around.
No matter what system is in place there could be abuse. I'm happy to leave it as it is. Maybe Perff can use it to practice some statistical ideas.
If it was all transparent there may be cases where people get upset and take harass the low voter or speak badly about them. Maybe even think it's a personal attack, not a release attack. People know what they like.
Maybe we could use some sort of biometric identification for all votes... just being silly.
Those who are happy to show what they have voted then well done. People should look at the votes and make their own mine up. Disregard the anonymous votes and take notice of the transparent votes or... |
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Finn
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 15 |
I have a nice idea for an option
As long as weird voting takes place I think
every scener should be able to turn on or off a function that allows voting for his/her releases.
Only for all releases of this person,not for each release separately.
Because otherwise some would only remove the rights from releases with low votes.
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I have a nice idea for an option
As long as weird voting takes place I think
every scener should be able to turn on or off a function that allows voting for his/her releases.
Only for all releases of this person,not for each release separately.
Because otherwise some would only remove the rights from releases with low votes.
Sigh .. that's *exactly* what I said .. you're like one of those guys on 'webwereld.nl', always repeating what was said before :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I've never harrased nor beat anyone who voted me low, but I find who it was!!! Beware! ;-))) Anyway Puterman is respectable example of person voting sincerely and non-anonymously at the same time. Worth following. |
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Mermaid
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 338 |
Now I'm curious...Perff, if you never wanted to add transparent votes in the first place, why did you have a poll here a few years ago asking the CSDB users if they wanted transparent votes..? |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Quote: Now I'm curious...Perff, if you never wanted to add transparent votes in the first place, why did you have a poll here a few years ago asking the CSDB users if they wanted transparent votes..?
At that time we were a couple of more people active in developing CSDb, and because you users kept asking about transparent votes we made a poll on it.
BUT! We couldn't agree internally what to do about it. Some of us thought we should make the transparent votes, or didn't care, but most thought it would be a bad idea to do that, because we were afraid that many users would remove their votes.
We never actually finished the discussion, and then other projects came along, but we had several ideas to avoid fake-voting (which I think is the main-reason why you people want transparent votes, right?) without fully transparrent votes, and this ended up with the 'filter' I made.
I still think this should take care of the 95% of fake votes, but ofcause there are always ways to get around such a thing.
If anyone can show me a vote-statistic where the fake-votes really show an impact on the rating I would be very interested. :)
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Well, I just managed to get Visual Delight 2 back in the top 10 by voting '10' (no previous vote) and changing my vote '7' for 'You Know The Routine' into a '1.
VD2 went from 8.0 to 8.2
YKTR went from 8.2 to 7.9
And for the hell of it I voted '1' for Deus Ex Machina, resulting in the average going from 9.4 to 9.1
Now that's pretty steep numbers in my eyes. So yes, downvoting has a big influence.
Tranparancy or possibility to make releases/persons non-votable, or, what the hell, I might just go around voting 1's and 10's all over the place. But I won't do it anonymously.
Perff, I respect your work but if you insist on taking a decision like this by yourself, no matter if there are a lot of people opposed to it (the majority it seems), I for one will not help building this database anymore. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Sorry to take such a radical approach, but how about publically downvoting each and everything just to tackle the system? ;-)
*runs away and ducks* |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Wow, I just kicked Arcanum completely out of the Top10! :-)
Peeps, this is great fun, come on and join in! |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
hmm.. I see that the rating changed yes. But I don't think it changed as much as it would do without the filter.. well.. whatever. :)
About the decission-making.
I do NOT want to take decissions like this all by myself. I see my job here to make sure that the php and sql works, and not much more.
This was originally intended as a funny 'little' project, but seems to have become an small institution, and I must admit that I'm not ready to take the responsability to decide how it should work, but every time I ask people they all look back at me.
The problem with this transparent vote-thing is that I have heard some people (enough) that it's a bad idea with transparent votes in general, and somewhere I must admit that I agree with them.
I still think this should be solved with a small admin-force cheking the accounts and their votes, and by that eleminate fake-accounts and votes. I have done that a few times, but I don't have time to check it all, and noone else will...
But if you all keep screaming at me I guess I must obey your oppinion.
I have made a small survey (again), and in a week or so I will check it out incl. responses here in the forum. OK? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Perff, that's all we're asking for. But try to make sure fake accounts can't vote on this :)
By the way, I've offered my help in the past and that offer still stands. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
I bow down to the wise decision and will of course remove my 1 from Arcanum immediately. =) |
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Cruzer
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1048 |
Why isn't the survey transparent? :) |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Cruzer I have to shout this with applause: *very good point* |
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WVL
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 902 |
why not just calculate the average from the transparent votes only? everybody can give their vote, whether they want them public or not, but they just won't count in the average... |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: why not just calculate the average from the transparent votes only? everybody can give their vote, whether they want them public or not, but they just won't count in the average...
I was suggesting this solution too. Simply to disable non-transparent votes on default, and have possibility to enable them if anyone is interested.
I've got that *cheschire cat smile* on my face again.. I mean, yeah, it's not a very nice solution towards anonyms, but I don't see any reason in having any special affection or tolerance towards such type of voters. |
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Board Rider
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 15 |
I think it would be good to see who voted for what and how the feel about the release too...
Board Rider/CSD! |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
board rider: thats what comments are for.. :)
How about a good, bad or ugly icon, with text on_mouseover "fade hates this" "fade would let this one tickle his twig and berries" you catch my drift.. Just PLEASE enough whinging about it.. I hate hearing this shit and unfortunately it isnt Big Brother so nobody is getting evicted from the scene |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Voting, imho, should be an honest, anonymous process done by many, many people. If there's no honesty, there's no point in interpreting the votes. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
maybe we can catch some fairies while we wait for any honesty. And maybe find a fakelabel that understands what being a fakelabel is all about. How about everyone fucks off this pointless topic and does some c64 datawork because this is as pointless as a conversation on religion. Someone put their foot down and end it all.. argh! :) |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
On the way home, I recalled something which might be interesting... if these apparent downvotes are a problem, why not switch to the much stabler median to calculate the central value instead of the mean?
If you have an ***ordered*** sequence of N numbers:
x.1, x.2, x.3, ..., x.N
Then the median is defined as:
x.(N+1)/2 (if N is odd)
(this is, simply, the value of the number in the middle)
or 1/2 * ( x.N/2 + x.N/2+1 ) (if N is even)
(this is the arithmetical mean of the values of the two middle numbers)
The median is statistically more robust than the arithmetical mean, especially when the amount of numbers N is small (which seems to be the case for most prods). It is the number which literally stands in the middle of the other numbers: there are as many numbers on the right as there are on the left.
So for example, let's say we have 10 ordered votes for a prod as follows:
6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10
Then the two middle numbers are 7 and 8, and the median is 1/2*(7 + 8) = 7.5
Note that the arithmetical mean is 7.90 in this case.
However, now let's assume some hip kid decides to downvote and adds a 1 to the sequence:
1, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10
The median now is 7, whereas the arithmetical mean is 7.27. So the median drops 0.5, while the mean drops 0.63, which is a bit more. It gets worse if we add another downvote, let's say a 2:
1, 2, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10
Now the median is 7, while the arithmetical mean is 6.83. As you can see, the median holds its position for a much longer time than the arithmetical mean.
The disadvantage of the median is that, in the current voting system, it will always have values like 6, 6.5, 7, 7.5 etc... but you can remedy this by coupling it to the arithmetical mean and calculate:
1/2 * (median + arithmetical mean)
That way you can calculate a quantity which is fairly robust against to downvoting (and also upvoting, alas) while still being coupled to the arithmetical mean (and thus produce numbers other than just 7, 7.5, 8 etc).
Just a thought. And if you remarked that you can do a lot of weird things with statistics, you'd be right. You can twist and turn the results of a test any way you want with the right formulas. :) |
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Oswald
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 5094 |
I agree with fade... sit down and make something meaningfull on the commie instead of wasting time on this topic...
I have to laugh on you... it was funny when someone started a topic, that why is his 10years ago died cracking group not on the top10... WHO THE FUCK DOES CARE ? you are just a bunch of grown up crying for your lost childhood... get real. Look at things at their real importance. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I agree with fade... sit down and make something meaningfull on the commie instead of wasting time on this topic...
I have to laugh on you... it was funny when someone started a topic, that why is his 10years ago died cracking group not on the top10... WHO THE FUCK DOES CARE ? you are just a bunch of grown up crying for your lost childhood... get real. Look at things at their real importance.
Oh sure, and making demos on c64 is of real importance? In case you & Fade don't realize it yet: this is a forum, we're supposed to share our opinions here, and appearantly transparant voting is important enough for a bunch of us to do just that. And if you had paid attention you would understand that it's not about our own groups/releases not being in top 10's, it's about people fucking up the voting-system. If I really cared about being in the top 10 I wouldn't have changed my votes back making Visual Delight 2 fall from it.
I happen to like rankings, I happen to like knowing what other people really think of groups & productions, and I happen to think that if votes are not transparent that that undermines the system. Now I may be wasting my time but that doesn't matter, it is MY time I waste, and not yours, unless you chose to butt in like you do now. So just STFU and go back to coding your demos, mkay? |
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_V_
Account closed
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 124 |
Fade: Why yes, fairies don't exist and honesty is a concept not grasped by everyone, it seems. Therefore, the numbers on the right cannot be interpreted unless there are many, many votes to make the bias from deliberate downvotes and upvotes insignificant. Since there're not a lot of votes (ie. <50 mostly, even <100 isn't a lot), guess my thoughts on the current standings. And yes, that's a rhetorical statement. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
Interesting. The Dark Judge wants his opinion voiced. If he highly dislikes someone elses opinion you tells them to go jump.
I do like to know what others think. It isn't too much different to diskmag charts. Only a small number know who voted for what and what they give.
I think too much of an issue is being made of these votes.
How about we pool some money together so everyone registered needs to have a number of lie detector tests? And then it will not be perfect.
Transparent votes reduces the rights of many, believing they have of free speeach. Everyone being able to interrogate votes reduces their freedom. Some don't want to offend people or upset them so they can give them what they honestly think.
This reminds me of the US presidential elections. Nothing will satisfy the public about who wins and flawed voting. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Stryyker, I'm not against people not sharing my opinion, I'm against people telling me I should stop sharing my opinion. There's a huge difference there. I'm fed up with people always saying "stop wasting time, do some c64 stuff instead". I paid my dues and if I want to spend the rest of my life talking about it, that's my choice. I don't force others to join me, all I ask is that if you don't care, just leave me alone. It's that simple.
So please don't try making me look like the bad guy, while I am defending, amongst others, you as well. Read before you write. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: Interesting. The Dark Judge wants his opinion voiced. If he highly dislikes someone elses opinion you tells them to go jump.
I do like to know what others think. It isn't too much different to diskmag charts. Only a small number know who voted for what and what they give.
I think too much of an issue is being made of these votes.
How about we pool some money together so everyone registered needs to have a number of lie detector tests? And then it will not be perfect.
Transparent votes reduces the rights of many, believing they have of free speeach. Everyone being able to interrogate votes reduces their freedom. Some don't want to offend people or upset them so they can give them what they honestly think.
This reminds me of the US presidential elections. Nothing will satisfy the public about who wins and flawed voting.
Free speech for anonyms??? ;-))) Isn't free speech about being able to speak out and not being punished for that? |
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Optimus
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 122 |
Charts are always fuckin subjective :) |
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Cmr
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 23 |
I agree with Stryyker. Some persons will take advantage of being able to see who voted for who and how he voted, and so to give bad critics to some persons about why they have such an opinion about that and so... And many persons don't like to be annoyed by such persons who like to slag on others who don't share the same mind as them.
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Slator
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 274 |
do some personal option, like anonymous votes are show/count yes/no or something like that.. so everybody can decide for him/herself...
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Cmr
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 23 |
Everybody was looking for a solution about these votes being transparent or not. Slator has the best solution at the moment, a solution which doesn't harm anybody. I support Slator's solution and I think this is also easy to arrange by Perff.
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
I don't think anyone would be so foolish to whine about downvotes by real sceners while many of us don't feel like accepting the fact that someone can hide behind anonymity and freely manipulate the charts. That *is* harmful! |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
tdj: I can see this post becoming a big "fuck you" thread as opposed to what should be done with the voting system, chances are this sort of topic will be around for another decade. There is nothing of importance to be gained from this thread, just as there was no importance about the chart cheating that went on 10-15 years ago. It's a lost cause and people are always going to fuck the voting standards. You don't think there won't be another secret man in the shadows? Thinking he was the best ever and will create numerous accounts to fuck up voting. If you are doing stuff on c64 for fame today you're a dead man and probably should go tryout for those superstar idol tv shows.
Bayliss gave me a 1 as musician, it's not like i'm bothered by it, he maybe has heard one tune from me and none that i spread around the local board scene in the late 80's. I'm a big fan of your work and we are all glad you put your time in so long ago but don't expect everyone to bend over for you because you did some cool shit a long time ago. As they say in Hollywood, what have you done for me lately?
Oswald: of course, idle hands are tools of the devil.
Vip: the fact you thought of that really scares me bro :)
Slator: Hello, nice that you pulled yourself away from the bbq :) now pass me some hairy schnitzel :)
Stryyker: Brad Hogg is God! :) also, hello :) we are the ruler and fear be in the heart of all warrior of the underwear
quite simply.. fuck it. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
bah, how pathetic. votes should be anonym - downvoters or not - it'll still be much more "real" charts than showed anywhere else before (mags etc).
and no, i dont have a problem with beeing recognized as the responsible person for downvoting - look at my damned vote history if you care :=P |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Quote: bah, how pathetic. votes should be anonym - downvoters or not - it'll still be much more "real" charts than showed anywhere else before (mags etc).
and no, i dont have a problem with beeing recognized as the responsible person for downvoting - look at my damned vote history if you care :=P
http://noname.c64.org/csdb/userpage/details.php
Make my CSDb votes: Public
8-O |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Okay, let me state it once more, because appearantly it's still not clear: I don't care about being in the charts. I even don't care for my group or its releases being in the charts. All I say is that if you decide to have charts, at least make sure they're as accurate as possible, and transparancy will help doing that.
Also, I view the charts in a way different light than those of 15 years ago. Let's say you're an ex-scener, stumbling upon this wonderful site, and you'd like to know what demos that were released after you left really rock. Wouldn't it be nice if you could depend on the charts here? Ofcourse I know: not everybody has the same taste, but the more people place honest votes (and once again: transparancy will improve those chances, improve I say, not guarantee, dammit!) the better the chance that it will serve that function.
As for my final point, please please please read this through before you go shouting "tdj doesn't like anybody disagreeing with him":
1. if people are for transparancy, cool
2. if people are against transparancy, cool
3. if people don't give a fuck, cool
But I do not like people from group (3) telling me I should stop caring and spend my time otherwise. What have I done for you lately Fade? Nothing, but then again: I don't owe you, or anybody else in this scene, anything. I do not thrive on the stuff I did in the past, I do not want your respect, I simply want to have a discussion here. If people don't like that discussion they should fuck off. It's that simple. |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
>I don't care about being in the charts. I even don't care for my group or its releases being in the charts. All I say is that if you decide to have charts, at least make sure they're as accurate as possible, and transparancy will help doing that.
--
I agree with that but there are always going to be people causing grief to any votesystem, you only need to look at rock n role's wares release system to feel an overwhelming bias towards quality. If the noname guys were to establish a bunch of guys to tally and review releases it would be far healthier then the masses doing so, maybe having a secondary scener votesystem for everyone else to crap on would be better.
Just remember you can't have a discussion without other opinions and i just feel this is going to ramble on until the scene is told how the voting is going to work. |
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Cmr
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 23 |
What's wrong with Slator's idea? It satisfies both parties : the pro-transparent people and the anti-transparant people. Or is it really the meaning to make the votesystem only for one sort of people (if I see some critics here, it looks like that some guys prefer this)?
Slator's idea : the choice of looking at the transparent charts only or at the full charts (including the anonym votes). I think this is a neutral choice for everybody and easy to do by Perff (I think). |
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Cmr
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2003
Posts: 23 |
These are Merman's words :
I feel that things should stay as they are, just the number of votes and "weighted" vote shown for each entry. That would save all the arguments "why did you vote low for me?" or "he/she is a lamer, they voted low for me/my release"
In some way he is right. But TDJ's facts are in some way also right.
In Slator's idea you have the secure feeling for people like Merman (for those who like to display the charts counted on all votes) and the open feeling for people like TDJ (for those who like to display the charts counted on the transparent votes only).
If you make the whole vote-system transparent, the anonym voters will stay away (otherwise they had already made their vote transparent now) and you still have the now-transparent votes as only chart. Slator gives a chance for both. If somebody only wants the transparent votes in the vote-system, then he discriminates people who like another vote-system. So why not taking both, it is possible!
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
I have been following this thread and the survey, and it seems to me that the best solution will be something like this:
In CSDb we calculate two ratings. One based only on the votes given by users who have their votes public, and one based on all votes (like now).
Any user can then chose on the userpage which of these ratings they want displayed when THEY browse the site.
The default will be the rating based on all votes.
This will result in some coding for my part, so it will not be implementet in one day. (Besides I'm rather busy in these days..)
Any comments/objections? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I have been following this thread and the survey, and it seems to me that the best solution will be something like this:
In CSDb we calculate two ratings. One based only on the votes given by users who have their votes public, and one based on all votes (like now).
Any user can then chose on the userpage which of these ratings they want displayed when THEY browse the site.
The default will be the rating based on all votes.
This will result in some coding for my part, so it will not be implementet in one day. (Besides I'm rather busy in these days..)
Any comments/objections?
I honestly don't think it's bad but it's not good either. It's a bit 'bleegh' if you know what I mean. Taking the easy way out, but that's cool .. Now you have 2 different kinds of charts that don't mean shit instead of just 1, right? :)
And I still want an option to make my products non-votable. |
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CreaMD
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 3057 |
Just a few comments:
1. Please publish results of the votes.
2. Please make non-anynymity default. In my opinion it will show respect to people who aren't afraid to show their opinion publicly.
3. Please, try to estimate how many people who voted actually are sceners and how many of the votes are from accounts which by your estimate could be fake.
4. How many people who voted at least 20-30 votes are from such accounts?
5. In private.
thanx in advance,
roman |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I liked the idea of shoing all votes or open votes. Maybe also an option to just show the anonymous votes too?
TDJ:What do you mean? I see it as an opportunity for people to use votes they are more comfortable with. Some people don't trust anonymous votes so with this option they can have them disregarded.
I don't know what is to be gained from excluding entries from votes. Simply don't look at the votes or when looking at the chart, move all productions under it up 1. Do you want to remove the chance for people to grade it compared to others? You may not want it compared to others or whatever reason. Other people may think it's worth grading. That's their opinion.
This database is more than some votes. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I liked the idea of shoing all votes or open votes. Maybe also an option to just show the anonymous votes too?
TDJ:What do you mean? I see it as an opportunity for people to use votes they are more comfortable with. Some people don't trust anonymous votes so with this option they can have them disregarded.
I don't know what is to be gained from excluding entries from votes. Simply don't look at the votes or when looking at the chart, move all productions under it up 1. Do you want to remove the chance for people to grade it compared to others? You may not want it compared to others or whatever reason. Other people may think it's worth grading. That's their opinion.
This database is more than some votes.
It's very simple: if I can't trust the votes for my productions to be based on that production itself, and not on something else, I'd rather have no votes at all. It should be as honest as possible.
And yes, this database is more than votes, I never said it wasn't, but I think that if you give people the chance to place anonymous votes you should also give people the chance to make their productions non-votable. Or do you think that people creating stuff have less rights than people judging it? Even if the people judging it don't even have the guts to do it out in the open? |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
That doesn't make much logical sense. You have never said to someone what you thought of a release before without making it more public? It's not much dffierent to diskmag charts. Most people don't know who voted for what. Typically only the reply spread line does (return path to editor). Why don't you run a crusade to have all diskmag charts transparent?
It's the internet so don't be so interested in opinions. IT seems a little childish to be so interested in who is voting for what otherwise don't let my stuff be rated. Maybe you can more indepth detail about what is so bad that you don't want your stuff to be rated? |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: That doesn't make much logical sense. You have never said to someone what you thought of a release before without making it more public? It's not much dffierent to diskmag charts. Most people don't know who voted for what. Typically only the reply spread line does (return path to editor). Why don't you run a crusade to have all diskmag charts transparent?
It's the internet so don't be so interested in opinions. IT seems a little childish to be so interested in who is voting for what otherwise don't let my stuff be rated. Maybe you can more indepth detail about what is so bad that you don't want your stuff to be rated?
1. there's a huge difference between the static diskmag charts and the charts here, which can be influenced right away by downvoting.
2. I can decide for myself if I want to be interested in opinions, thank you very much.
3. I'm not going to explain *again* why I want to be as sure as possible that the votes given are real, and not the result of somebody not liking a certain production/scener to be so high/low in the charts, just read my previous posts.
My girlfriend always says: "either something should be done just right, or it shouldn't be done at all". That's how I feel about this as well. So either make sure the charts are as correct as possible, or remove them. And if the charts will not be removed, at least give me and others the possibility to have ourselves and our products removed from them. That's all.
Oh, and it's quite childish to call a differing opinion childish. I have been very vocal in this discussion, if you just don't want to understand me, that's cool, but please tell me, otherwise it really will be a waste of my time.
You know, if you all just would have given in, I could have spend all that time on finishing my new demo for Floppy, now I'm too late :) |
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fade
Account closed
Registered: Mar 2002
Posts: 290 |
you listen to your girlfriend.. hahahahaha sucker :) |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: you listen to your girlfriend.. hahahahaha sucker :)
I have to, she always takes a test later to see if I paid attention. If I fail, she revokes my c64 rights ;(
Ofcourse, when she says it ("do it right or don't do it at all") it usually has got something to do with clothes and/or make-up other girls are wearing.
Don't tell her I said that. |
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Stryyker
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 468 |
I'm trying to understand you. Maybe you better explain it a bit more differently.
A diskmag chart may be static for a particular issue but next issue will see a change.
What is wrong with the option of seeing only transparent votes or all votes? Then you can only se the votes you are interested in. I consider it a worthy compromise. |
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TDJ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1879 |
Quote: I'm trying to understand you. Maybe you better explain it a bit more differently.
A diskmag chart may be static for a particular issue but next issue will see a change.
What is wrong with the option of seeing only transparent votes or all votes? Then you can only se the votes you are interested in. I consider it a worthy compromise.
Sorry man, but I'm done playing this game. It tires me. I just hope Perff doesn't ignore the results of the poll instead of just changing his decision, again.
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V-12
Registered: Nov 2003
Posts: 206 |
Stryyker and Iopop are right. For what we have votes in csdb ? IT's a useless thing. This is not a diskmag. |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
whatever happened to the survey? is it already dysfunct and more or less serving as a nice looking appendix to the csdb-menu? |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote: whatever happened to the survey? is it already dysfunct and more or less serving as a nice looking appendix to the csdb-menu?
Help! How can one un-ignore postings from somebody? Seems I accidentially ignored Dalezy's postings, but that was for sure not my intention... :-(
Perff, can you remove Dalezy from my ignore list again, please? |
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zdzisek
Account closed
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 33 |
Quote: Help! How can one un-ignore postings from somebody? Seems I accidentially ignored Dalezy's postings, but that was for sure not my intention... :-(
Perff, can you remove Dalezy from my ignore list again, please?
How did you quote something that was posted by a person you had ignored? I thought that posts written by an ignored person weren't visible. :-O |
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dalezy
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 476 |
i'm a magic ignored person, it makes perfect sense. |
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Quote: i'm a magic ignored person, it makes perfect sense.
If I just read the forum I get a <message ignored> when dalezy posts something. Pressing "quote" is the only way to make it visible again... ;-) |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Quote: Help! How can one un-ignore postings from somebody? Seems I accidentially ignored Dalezy's postings, but that was for sure not my intention... :-(
Perff, can you remove Dalezy from my ignore list again, please?
Click the 'My settings'-link on the top of the page you are currently viewing. :)
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Steppe
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 1510 |
Thanks, Perff! Never saw this link, was it there ever since? |
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Perff
Administrator
Posts: 1679 |
Has been there as long as I can remember. :) |
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Yodelking
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 189 |
Perff, you still didn't answer dalezy's question:
"whatever happened to the survey? is it already dysfunct and more or less serving as a nice looking appendix to the csdb-menu?"
In other words, when you let us know what people have voted? |
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Conrad
Registered: Nov 2006
Posts: 849 |
Man, this thread mother-fucking rules! So old, yet so epic!
More of this plz. |
