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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Subtypes for tools?
Was this suggested before? I cannot believe it was not :)
Please, oh pretty please, let's have a subtype for 'C64 Tool' - we have mode for the gfx, why can't we have something for this one?? It's so logical I think... At the very least to have 'Gfx tool', 'Sound tool', 'Disk tool', 'Packer' etc.
It such a pain in the ass to look for tools here when you're developing a release or want to do something very specific. And you're convinced there is already a tool to do it, but most querries return squat. My example: I was looking for something for automatic transfer from turbo-tapes to disk, and no querry returned A.T.T.A.C V1.0 - I spotted it in the comments of some other tool, whereas A.T.T.A.C V1.0 was the only one which met all my requirements. Same for gfx-to-char converters, for example ;) |
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ready.
Registered: Feb 2003
Posts: 441 |
I am 100% with wackee! I also was looking for a char mode editor tool and the only thing that helped me was a forum tread started by Carrion some time ago. This feature would be very useful for searching tools. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
so to make this as little work to implement as possible.... come up with a comprehensive list and some short definitions of what goes into which category. it can probably then be added in a similar way as the gfx types. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I think all this can easyly be handled via the AKA field and a proper search.
Simply searching for 'tape' reveals a mere 76 releases. I you init an 'advanced' search for 'tape' and 'tool' its just 50, with ATTAC being the fourth.
And surely we cant have subtypes more specific than 'tape' anyway.
I would much rather see people to NAME their tools properly as main title or in the AKA field.
As long as people font even do that, I see no use of subtyped actually... |
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Zyron
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2381 |
Good points there. A possibility to search Summary & Production Notes of releases could also be helpful. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
We need to start somewhere, so here is a list that comes to my mind. Most of them are pretty clear (I think), for others I gave some examples to clarify:
Animation tool
Assembler
BBS Tool
Cartridge (cartridge images)
Characterset editor
Copier
Copy protector (protectors, coders)
Data base (data bases, catalogue tools)
Demo maker
Diagnostic tool (testers)
Disk loader/saver (turboloaders, loadersystems)
Disk tool (disk editors, dir editors, formatters)
File manager
Game development tool (map editors, seuck)
Graphics converter
Graphics editor (bitmap editors)
Graphics viewer
Intro maker
Magazine editor
Monitor
Music editor
Music player
Music utility (rippers, relocators)
Noter (notemakers, writers)
Operating system (GEOS)
Other
Packer (charpackers, crunchers, zippers)
Packing system
Programming language compiler
Programming language interpreter
Spreadsheet
Sprite tool
Tape loader/saver (turboloaders)
Tape tool (tape cataloguing software, head adjusters)
Text editor
Virus tool
Vote counter
Make your proposals. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Don't let this die :)
Is it implemented yet? :) |
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Frantic
Registered: Mar 2003
Posts: 1648 |
I also think this is a very good idea. I would indeed like to be able to browse tools in a more structured way. |
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
I support this as well. But sometimes too many subcategories can be a little unhandy. So, I think we can reduce the number by moving some unused tool categories to other and merge some of the rest.
Virus tool -> Other
Programming language compiler & Programming language interpreter -> Programming language tools
Packing system -> Packer
File manager -> Disk tool
etc. It's just an idea. Otherwise, we could add new categories like "3d tools" etc. but i think they will be just fine in "Other" category. |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
+1 for the idea as well, but the categories should be kept at a minimum as well. ftp://ftp.scs-trc.net/pub/c64/Tools/ is coming close to what I'd also like to see. Putting on categories for virus tools, sinus editors, vote counters and spreadsheet would be overkill IMHO. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Ok, based on those suggestions, I give you v2 :)
Animation tool
Assembler (assemblers, monitors)
BBS Tool
Cartridge (cartridge images, cartridge tools)
Characterset tool (characterset editors, converters)
Copy tool (protectors, coders, copiers)
Data base (data bases, catalogue tools)
Demo maker (intro makers, demo makers)
Diagnostic tool (testers)
Disk loader/saver (turboloaders, loadersystems)
Disk tool (disk editors, dir editors, formatters)
Game development tool (map editors, seuck)
Graphics converter
Graphics editor (bitmap editors)
Graphics viewer
Modem tool
Music editor
Music utility (rippers, relocators, players)
Noter (notemakers, writers, docs makers)
Operating system (GEOS)
Other
Packer (charpackers, crunchers, zippers, archivers, packing systems)
Programming language (interpreters, compilers)
Spreadsheet
Sprite tool
Tape loader/saver (turboloaders)
Tape tool (tape cataloguing software, head adjusters)
Text editor (text editors, magazine editors)
Vote counter
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Skate
Registered: Jul 2003
Posts: 494 |
much better wackee. thanks for the idea. i hope this will be implemented soon. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
i am with c0 there .... make that list half as big at best. there are already more than enough pointless release categories =P |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Nice list, but there are way too many entries with "tool" in the category name. For instance, Modem tool/BBS tool simply isn't acceptable. BBS Software and Terminal Software is more fitting but still feels goofy because of the "Software" part.
I think combining related categories would be a better fit. For instance, simply calling one for all BBS related software as "C64 Tool - BBS/Modem" is more fitting.
Same can be done with half of the list really. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
You guys are soooo demanding ;)
Fine, I changed the approach and the list is now more "process" oriented. But on the other hand, let us not lose the point of it (improvement towards end users) and that is why I object towards reducing it dramatically, because at some point the added value of having only few subcategories will be none because they will become so generic that searches will again return too many entries. (That is why I for example stick with "Disk I/O" and "Disk utility" instead of simple "Disk" category).
Animation
BBS / Modem
Cartridge (cartridge images, cartridge tools)
Characters (characterset editors, converters)
Compression (charpackers, crunchers, zippers, archivers, packing systems)
Copying (protectors, coders, copiers)
Data base (data bases, catalogue tools, spreasheets)
Demo making (intro makers, demo makers)
Diagnostics (testers)
Disk I/O (turboloaders, loadersystems)
Disk utility (disk editors, dir editors, formatters)
Game development (map editors, seuck)
Graphics converting
Graphics editing (bitmap editors)
Graphics utility (viewers, cleaners)
Machine code (assemblers, monitors)
Messaging (notemakers, writers, docs makers)
Music editing
Music utility (rippers, relocators, players)
Operating system (GEOS)
Other
Programming language (interpreters, compilers)
Sprites
Tape I/O (turboloaders)
Tape utility (tape cataloguing software, head adjusters)
Text editing (text editors, magazine editors)
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Quote:on the other hand, let us not lose the point of it (improvement towards end users) and that is why I object towards reducing it dramatically, because at some point the added value of having only few subcategories will be none because they will become so generic that searches will again return too many entries.
i think the key to that is multi selection. ie, have a bunch of categories which by itself are as generic as possible, but which can be combined with each other. the problem with having more than a few categories is that many will not bother to check which will fit best, and when it becomes to fine grained then its even hard to tell what category is correct. also noone bothers to read how they are defined, and everyone has his own pet theory of what category a certain something belongs to and why =) so it must be as simple as possible aswell.
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I have my doubts if multiselection is a good idea. I created the above categories in a way that there is IMHO little possibility to overlap, that was my initial thinking. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
sure, but thats because of your own pet theory of what is important and what isnt and what deserves a more specific category and what not :) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Instead of paternizing ;) go ahead and propose a reduced list, also by giving examples of things that can be EASILY (I stress the word) placed in two categories.
I have a tendency to be easily convinced by facts ;) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
What about:
Assembler (including Monitors)
BBS / Modem
Cartridge / ROMs (to include Kernals)
Compression
Copying
Data base (Somehow I feel this would be a lonely tag)
Demo making
Diagnostics
Disk
Game making
Graphics (including Characters, Sprites and all)
Messaging / Texting
Music
Other
Programming
Tape
and see how it develops then. Any category with less than a dozen entries is useless and I could hardly think of 10 database programs really.
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Yeah, Database probably falls under Other.
I think if we're going to have a simple category like Disk, then we should clean a few of the others up a bit. Instead of Messaging/Texting, why not simply Text?
With a few tiny changes I believe the CZ list is the best so far. Keeps the list small and understandable. I'm guessing if there is any issues in six or eight months the list can be tweaked to enhance the categories?
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DemongerX
Account closed
Registered: Jun 2002
Posts: 137 |
CZ, the question becomes what constitutes a database. Would it be a general database, a contact database like(contact dealer, or others), a program filer database(ie dcmr, etc.) Not trying to make it more difficult, but sub categories could be made ad infinitum.
DemongerX
ps. posted this response, then saw moloch's. Talk about variations on a theme. That pretty much sums up what I was getting at as well.
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
OK, so now it looks like this:
1 Assembler (assemblers, monitors)
2 BBS / Modem
3 Cartridge / ROMs (cartridge images, cartridge tools, Kernals)
4 Compression (charpackers, crunchers, zippers, archivers, packing systems)
5 Copying (protectors, coders, copiers)
6 Data base (data bases, catalogue tools, spreasheets, vote counters)
7 Demo development (intro makers, demo makers)
8 Diagnostics (testers)
9 Disk (turboloaders, loadersystems, disk editors, dir editors, formatters)
10 Game development (map editors, seuck)
11 Graphics (bitmap editors, character editors, viewers, cleaners, converters, sprite tools, animation tools)
12 Music (music editors, rippers, relocators, players)
13 Other
14 Programming (interpreters, compilers)
15 Tape (turboloaders, head adjusters)
16 Text (notemakers, writers, docs makers, text editors, mag editors)
I kept "data base", because now I think also vote counters would fall under that category (of which we have now 14 in csdb :D). And I personally prefer "development" which sounds better than "making". Is that fine with everyone? ;) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
I also prefer the "development" wording, always sounds a lot better than "maker". ;)
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
I dont really care there, but if I take a look at stuff we would list under "demo devel/making" -- tons of intro and demo _makers_ :)
Why not stick to the wording the scene has used for decades? :)
Mind you - when we were in school and getting our first english lessons long words were just no good. Or tricky letter combinations as often seen on packers displaying "lenght" :)
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I can live with that ;) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
1 Graphics
2 Sound/Music
3 Development
4 Compression
5 Disk/Tape
6 Misc
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I 2nd graham but a separate category for tape and disk. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Those are categories, not code - stop applying optimization principles to it ;) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Six isn't enough and that list discounts things which were a large part of the scene ... like BBS/Modem.
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MagerValp
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 1078 |
Quoting MolochSix isn't enough and that list discounts things which were a large part of the scene ... like BBS/Modem.
Yep, add Comms. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
"Six isn't enough and that list discounts things which were a large part of the scene ... like BBS/Modem."
there is another pet theory =) |
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
No problem with a BBS/Modem category. I just tried to avoid categories with only a few entries (like "Database") and I don't know too many tools for BBS/Modem.
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I don't get you guys. What is the harm of having 16 categories? It's not like ERP system accounts or anything else that you have to pay big bucks for.
If this principle is applied, why do we have "UIFLI" subcategory for graphics? It's only 3 entries, screw that, put it under "other"!
Let's do the same for "C64 Fake Game". It's only 11 entries, which (if my math is correct) is less than 14 vote counters and 11 contact databases in csdb now, for which you find "database" category not needed...
This is getting ridiculous, COME ON, don't we all have more important things in life - let's implement it already... :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
you are getting on the right track. we already *do have* a bunch of terribly useless categories. we dont need even more of them. |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
I think you just don't do such searches often, you don't need this functionality, therefore you don't get the issue. If you don't get it, trust those who need and asked for it.
The difference between having 'UIFLI' and this is that it will be very, I mean VERY useful for the active part of the scene. It's implemented on every damn FTP out there. |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
you are right, i almost never use csdb for searching... i use pokefinder instead. and i never had a problem with finding what i was looking for, so yeah *shrug*. what is the problem anyway? =) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Then I suggest applying a Nike principle to it. You know, JUST DO IT?
Because so far it feels like the point is to discourage users from suggesting improvements to the database, by driving to the conclusion that it was not needed anyway :) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
no, i am actually encouraging to develop a list of categories which would actually be used. by the people who enter the information into the database that is.
because, if you for example make a dozen categories which are all about graphic related stuff, and dont pay lots of attention to that they dont overlap and/or one is so generic that it includes another, the result will be that people who add info use the generic one for everything. you can easily see it with things like "demo" vs "one file demo". |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
By the the first two sentences, you should take into account what I say ;) |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
yes sure - i'd like to hear some ideas from other people who submit a lot though. just to avoid the pet-theory thing you know :) |
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King Durin
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 85 |
Quote: yes sure - i'd like to hear some ideas from other people who submit a lot though. just to avoid the pet-theory thing you know :)
I wanna know who's going to categorize the vast database of tools we have now into something more usable? Adding these new categories means nothing without categorizing the existing releases.
King Durin aka plbyrd
http://cbmcommand.codeplex.com
http://www.paytonbyrd.com |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3193 |
This is an open database, everyone who cares - must be registered and logged - can edit entries, like we already do since years =)
The only problem are locked and incomplete entries, but for those there are always mods and trusted users who can edit them anyway. |
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King Durin
Account closed
Registered: Oct 2007
Posts: 85 |
Quote: This is an open database, everyone who cares - must be registered and logged - can edit entries, like we already do since years =)
The only problem are locked and incomplete entries, but for those there are always mods and trusted users who can edit them anyway.
I bring it up because I think we need a few good men to step up and undertake this beast of a task. The results will be extraordinarily useful, so hopefully a few brave souls will be willing to help out.
I for one will volunteer to do some, but I probably can't do more than 10 or so at a time. I'll probably wind up downloading each one and using it just to see what it really does. Comments may ensue. |
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iAN CooG
Registered: May 2002
Posts: 3193 |
I add sids and music credits daily, few demos a day, if there is time and will, but I do it because I'm the first that have an advantage doing so, finding new sids and who did what and when, hence fixing HVSC sids. It's not a paid work and too bad, virtually infinite due to the amount of unverified data.
If there is will and time, anyone can give his little contribution, anytime. |
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cba
Registered: Apr 2002
Posts: 935 |
I add demos/tools/cracks etc. and would love to see more categories.
In fact I would love to have more standards for csdb that are really followed, like banning the uploading of .prg files and finally csdb v2 !, would be nice if this would really happen ! |
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chatGPZ
Registered: Dec 2001
Posts: 11384 |
Quote:banning the uploading of .prg files
and t64/lnx/zipcode/othercrap ... yes indeed =) |
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Count Zero
Registered: Jan 2003
Posts: 1932 |
What Niels said :)
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
There are right now 5000 tools in the database.
If we split it by name and do it in stages - for example letter by letter - it could be done progressively over some weeks, I guess.
For example, A is just ~230 entries, of which like 15 are different versions of Action Replay, or Abuze Cruncher :)
The situation in which you need to download & run to check what the tool does will be really rare, I think.
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Digger
Registered: Mar 2005
Posts: 436 |
+1 for CSDB v2.0 :)
Also Wackee's suggestions makes sense to me lots of useful tools are falling into "too generic" category of C64 Tool (i.e. http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=89406&show=summary) |
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Moloch
Registered: Jan 2002
Posts: 2928 |
Lots of people make updates to CSDb entries all the time. I easily make 30-50 updates a week in casual mode and when motivated could do 2 or 3 times that in a day.
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Graham
Account closed
Registered: Dec 2002
Posts: 990 |
Just put all the current tools into the "Misc" category, the rest will happen automatically. |
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enthusi
Registered: May 2004
Posts: 677 |
I guess some experiment could be made:
- split all 5000 tools into groups by first letter (as described above).
- people here raise their arms as to which group they will attend, i.e. 'enthusi takes care of categorizing all tools starting with "t"
- for each change any of you made, sent 1 eur via paypal to me, so I can evaluate the overall progress ;-)
If this works: Im fine :) And the issue is settled and similar things might even be accomplished for other things in CSDb.
It's like that awesome Hexquisite Ptoing launched once elsewhere - just more boring and much less beautyful :) |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
That experiment needs to be started with basically implementing the feature.
Any progress there? |
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wacek
Registered: Nov 2007
Posts: 513 |
Bump this mutha up!
Any word, dear csdb mods & admins? :) |
